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Here Dennison et al,
I'll add to your list some scriptures and then some writings of the church fathers. Maybe JA will take note that these are all MEN worshiping Jesus, not just some 'women feeling sentimentally because of Christ's suffering.'
Quote Matt 2:11-12
11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way
NASUQuote Matt 14:33
33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God's Son!”
NASUQuote Matt 28:9-10
9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.
10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
NASUQuote Matt 28:17-18
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
NASUQuote John 9:36-39
36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
NASUJustin Martyrs:
Quote Our Teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar, and that we reasonably worship him, having learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. (13). Regarding Polycarp's martyredom and Polycarp's companions who are not going to worship Polycarp but they worship Jesus.
Quote Chapter XVII.—The Christians are refused Polycarp’s body.
But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, “lest,” said he, “forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one.” This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world, nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples!Cyril of Alexandria, this one will challenge you.
Quote THE 12 CHAPTERS. 1. If any one confess not, that Emmanuel is in truth God, and that the holy Virgin is therefore Mother of God, for she hath borne after the flesh the Word out of God made Flesh, be he anathema.
2. If any one confess not, that the Word out of God the Father hath been personally united to Flesh, and that He is One Christ with His own Flesh, the Same (that is) God alike and Man, be he anathema.
3. If any one sever the Hypostases of the One Christ after the Union, connecting them with only a connection of dignity or authority or sway, and not rather with a concurrence unto Unity of Nature, be he anathema.
4. If any one allot to two Persons or Hypostases the words in the Gospels and Apostolic writings, said either of Christ by the saints or by Him of Himself, and ascribe some to a man conceived of by himself apart from the Word That is out of God, others as God-befitting to the Word alone That is out of God the Father, be he anathema.
5. If any one dare to say, that Christ is a God-clad man, and not rather that He is God in truth as being the One Son, and That by Nature, in that the Word hath been made Flesh, and hath shared like us in blood and flesh, be he anathema.
6. If any one dare to say that the Word That is out of God the Father is God or Lord of Christ and do not rather confess that the Same is God alike and Man, in that the Word hath been made Flesh, according to the Scriptures, be he anathema. |xii
7. 9 If any one say that Jesus hath been in-wrought-in as man by God the Word, and that the Glory of the Only-Begotten hath been put about Him, as being another than He, be he anathema.
8. If any one shall dare to say that the man that was assumed ought to be co-worshipped with God the Word and co-glorified and co-named God as one in another (for the co-, ever appended, compels us thus to deem) and does not rather honour Emmanuel with one worship, and send up to Him One Doxology, inasmuch as the Word has been made Flesh, be he anathema.
9. If any one say that the One Lord Jesus Christ hath been glorified by the Spirit, using His Power as though it were Another's, and from Him receiving the power of working against unclean spirits and of accomplishing Divine signs towards men, and does not rather say that His own is the Spirit, throug
h Whom also He wrought the Divine signs, be he anathema.10. The Divine Scripture says that Christ hath been made the Sigh Priest and Apostle of our Confession and that He offered Himself for us for an odour of a sweet smell to God the Father. If any one therefore say that, not the Very Word out of God was made our High Priest and Apostle when He was made Flesh and man as we, but that man of a woman apart by himself as other than He, was [so made]: or if any one say that in His own behalf also He offered the Sacrifice and not rather for us alone (for He needed not offering Who knoweth not sin), be he anathema.
11. If any one confess not, that the Flesh of the Lord is Life-giving and that it is the own Flesh of the Word Himself That is out of God the Father, but says that it belongs to another than He, connected with Him by dignity or as |xiii possessed of Divine Indwelling only, and not rather that it is Life-giving (as we said) because it hath been made the own Flesh of the Word Who is mighty to quicken all things, be he anathema.
12. If any one confess not that the Word of God suffered in the Flesh and hath been crucified in the Flesh and tasted death in the Flesh and hath been made First-born of the Dead, inasmuch as He is both Life and Life-giving as God, be he anathema.
Maybe someone wants to follow this up with the vast list of martyrs that worshiped Christ…real men and women of God who died courageously out of devotion to Jesus, not denying Him who saved them but eagerly facing the hazard to be counted worthy of being a disciple of Christ. Maybe I'll make that a new topic…
I agree with this:
Quote (If any one say that the Father is greater, inasmuch as He is the cause of the Son, we will not contradict this. But this doth not by any means make the Son to be of a different Essence.) LU,
The word you struggle to embrace is 'Obeisence'.
Everyone knows that God is One and only God is to be worshipped.
The translators of the Scriptures know the difference between 'Worship' and 'Obeisence'.
Falling down in front of someone and doing obeisence is a sign of reverence. It does not imply you are offering Sacred Service and your life.
To what Sacred Service could they offer baby Jesus, or why offer your life because you see your friend and master.
The Jews looking on would have been livid and immediately called out 'Blasphemy'. Did they? No. Why not?
The Jews, the Pharasees, the Scribes, the Priests, they all knew that God alone shoukd be worshipped, yet did nothing when they saw the disciples 'worshipping' Jesus?
The Disciples themselves knew this, were they not mainy Jews themselves?
LU, please….falling down and showing reverence is not Worship.
You have locked onto this theme with superglue. Pour boiling hot water onto yourself, that will loose your bond with this error.
I see your main belief is not so far from the truth.why not take that one step closer and do the right thing, please. You have gone on long enough in ignorance…
JA,
I feel that you have great pain to understand this truth that a person begotten of God Himself could be as perfect as a God as the one that beget Him but I believe it to be so.The Son, the only begotten is not in the form of an angel as you suppose, but is in the form of God. He is not the image of the invisible angel, but the image of the invisible God. He does not exactly represent the nature of an angel but is an exact representation of the nature of God. Loud and clear JA, He is not of the angel kind but of the God kind. I know that you cannot see that yet but hopefully soon and then you can enjoy the amazing perfection of the one and only begotten.
What would be a higher act of God but to beget another, perfect like Him, from like substance, a substance which always existed.
In the OT God spoke to an audience distinguishing Himself from the many idols that had nothing to do with creation. In the NT, a fuller message is given which reveals the Son and including Him in the creative act. You really ought to read some of these writings of the church father's…many of them have a good way of explaining this truth of God being one.
Read this about 1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASUPlease read this explanation:
Quote 6.] Nor yet, if you observe, hath he distributed the names as if belonging exclusively, assigning to the Son the name Lord, and to the Father, God. For the Scripture useth also often to interchange them; as when it saith, (Ps. cx. 1.) “The Lord saith unto My Lord;” and
again, (Ps. lxv. 8.) “Wherefore God Thy God hath appointed Thee;” and, (Rom. ix. 5.) “Of Whom is Christ according to the flesh, Who is
God over all.” And in many instances you may see these names changing their places. Besides, if they were allotted to each nature
severally, and if the Son were not God, and God as the Father, yet continuing a Son: after saying, “but to us there is but One God,” it
would have been superfluous, his adding the word “Father,” with a view to declare the Unbegotten. For the word of God was sufficient to
explain this, if it were such as to denote Him only.
And this is not all, but there is another remark to make: that if you say, “Because it is said ‘One God,’ therefore the word God doth not
apply to the Son;” observe that the same holds of the Son also. For the Son also is called “One Lord,” yet we do not maintain that
therefore the term Lord applies to Him alone. So then, the same force which the expression “One” has, applied to the Son, it has also,
applied to the Father. And as the Father is not thrust out from being the Lord, in the same sense as the Son is the Lord, because He, the
Son, is spoken of as one Lord; so neither does it cast out the Son from being God, in the same sense as the Father is God, because the
Father is styled One God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,22:32) Kathi: Quote Oh look-ey here Mike, words from Cyril of Alexandria,
As if the words of Cyril are said to be inspired of God.
Does this sound like anything God ever said in scripture:
God, not some man like us took hold of Godhead, and He is Himself made like unto us, and is called our Brother as Man, not we to Him as regards the Nature of the Godhead.
Funny, but I remember Jehovah saying He was One, not a “Godhead”.
Cyril:
Quote But to Him boweth every knee, and that not to the grief or dishonour of the Father, but rather to His glory: for He rejoiceth and is glorified when the Son is adored by all,
Kathi, you didn't need Cyril for that…..it's straight out of scripture. I'm sure many knees bowed to David when he was king, so why wouldn't they bow to the King of the whole world when he comes? Isn't it a long held tradition for people to bow in front of their king? Besides, scripture says all knees will bow to Jesus, so of course they will. And nothing like this will be done without it being the will of Jesus' God, so I agree that it will please our God when it happens.Kathi:
Quote Also, in Gen 4:1 the word 'created' is a different Hebrew word than the one that was used to create man.
Fair enough, but wouldn't you say that you and your husband have created new lives with the help of God?Kathi:
Quote I disagree with this and say that the Son did inherit His nature, a divine nature that pre-existed His active existence.
Kathi, it's okay to form a progression of how things came to be in our minds. We can dream and imagine how it could have all come to be. But don't ever mistake those “dreams” with “absolute truth”. The Bible doesn't say anything about Jesus existing in any way, shape or form before he was begotten by his God. That is just YOUR opinion, and it is unsupported by any scripture. The Bible doesn't imply anything other than God begot a Son, and from than moment on, the Son existed.Kathi:
Quote Scripture doesn't say that Jesus is 'part of' God's creation, Mike. Can you find any early church father's agreeing with you there?
Sure I can…….Eusebius.Eusebius distinctly asserts, Dem. Ev. iv. 2, that our Lord is a creature. “This offspring,” he says, “did He first produce Himself from Himself as a foundation of those things which should succeed, the perfect handy-work, δημιούργημα, of the Perfect, and the wise structure, ἀρχιτεκτόνημα, of the Wise,”
But it's not so much that Eusebius thought this, for he is just a man. It's more about the fact that the reason he thought this is because it's in the scriptures. Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation”, and “the beginning of the creation of God”. Face it Kathi…….scripture says Jesus is a part of creation plain and simple in two different places.
mike
Hi Mike,You said:
Quote Kathi:
Quote
Scripture doesn't say that Jesus is 'part of' God's creation, Mike. Can you find any early church father's agreeing with you there?Sure I can…….Eusebius.
Eusebius distinctly asserts, Dem. Ev. iv. 2, that our Lord is a creature. “This offspring,” he says, “did He first produce Himself from Himself as a foundation of those things which should succeed, the perfect handy-work, δημιούργημα, of the Perfect, and the wise structure, ἀρχιτεκτόνημα, of the Wise,”
But it's not so much that Eusebius thought this, for he is just a man. It's more about the fact that the reason he thought this is because it's in the scriptures. Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation”, and “the beginning of the creation of God”. Face it Kathi…….scripture says Jesus is a part of creation plain and simple in two different places.
I do believe that Eusebius did not think that the firstborn was a part of creation but more like the firstborn was the foundation of creation. Read these words of Eusebius regarding worship given to the Son of God and Him being the one that created inferior beings:
Quote 4. This, too, the great Moses teaches, when, as the most ancient of all the prophets, he describes under the influence of the divine Spirit the creation and arrangement of the universe. He declares that the maker of the world and the creator of all things yielded to Christ himself, and to none other than his own clearly divine and first-born Word, the making of inferior things, and communed with him respecting the creation of man. “For,” says he, “God said, Let us make man in our image and in our likeness.”2727 Gen. i. 26.
5. And another of the prophets confirms this, speaking of God in his hymns as follows: “He spake and they were made; he commanded and they were created.”2828 Ps. xxxiii. 9. There is really nothing in this passage to imply that the Psalmist thinks, as Eusebius supposes, of the Son as the Father’s agent in creation, who is here addressed by the Father. As Stroth remarks, “According to Eusebius, ‘He spake’ is equivalent to ‘He said to the Son, Create’; and ‘They were created’ means, according to him, not ‘They arose immediately upon this command of God,’ but ‘The Son was immediately obedient to the command of the Father and produced them.’ For Eusebius connects this verse with the sixth, ‘By the word of the Lord were the heavens made,’ where he understands Christ to be referred to. Perhaps this verse has been omitted in the Greek through an oversight, for it is found in Rufinus.” He here introduces the Father and Maker as Ruler of all, commanding with a kingly nod, and second to him the divine Word, none other than the one who is proclaimed by us, as carrying out 83
the Father’s commands.
6. All that are said to have excelled in righteousness and piety since the creation of man, the great servant Moses and before him in the first place Abraham and his children, and as many righteous men and prophets as afterward appeared, have contemplated him with the pure eyes of the mind, and have recognized him and offered to him the worship which is due him as Son of God.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vi.ii.html
So how about that Mike, your buddy Eusebius says that worship is due Him as Son of God. Eusebius also says that it was the Son (the pre-existent Word) that was with Abraham at his tent. Read the webpage for that info. (remember that discussion).
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2010,12:19) I agree with this: Quote (If any one say that the Father is greater, inasmuch as He is the cause of the Son, we will not contradict this. But this doth not by any means make the Son to be of a different Essence.)
KathiRemember you should always quote in context and not out of context to get the truth.
St. Chrysostom 347-407
“What then do I say? THAT THIS FIRST “WAS,” APPLIED TO “THE WORD,” IS ONLY INDICATIVE OF HIS ETERNAL BEING, (for “In the beginning,” he saith, “was the Word,”) and that the second “was,” (“and the Word was with God,”) denotes His relative Being. For since to be eternal and without beginning is most peculiar to God, this he puts first; and then, lest any one hearing that He was “in the beginning,” should assert, that He was “unbegotten” also, he immediately remedies this by saying, before he declares what He was, that He was “with God.” AND HE HAS PREVENTED ANY ONE FROM SUPPOSING, “that this “Word” is simply such a one as is either UTTERED προφορικὸν. or CONCEIVED, ἐ νδιάθετον. by the addition, as I beforesaid, of the article, as well as by this second expression. For he does not say, was “in God,” but was “with God”: declaring to us His eternity as to person.5151 ὑ πόστασιν. Then, as he advances, he has more clearly revealed it, by adding, that this “Word” also “was God.” Source
WJ
Hi Kathi
Here is some more…
St. Chrysostom 347-407
For this, as I before said, he has shown by the term “Word.” As therefore the expression, ““In the beginning was the Word,” shows His Eternity, so “was in the beginning with God,” has declared to us His Co-eternity. For that you may not, when you hear “In the beginning was the Word,” suppose Him to be Eternal, and “yet imagine the life of 17 the Father to differ from His by some interval and longer duration, and so assign a BEGINING to the Only-Begotten, he adds, “was in the beginning with God”; so eternally even as the Father Himself, for the Father was never without the Word, but He was always God with God, yet Each in His proper Person. Source
WJ
LU,
You only seek to make Jesus like God because you seek to nurture Jesus as a Son. I have seen this in you before.
Scripture clearly states that only God, YHVH, Jehovah, is to be worshipped.
Honor the SON — Worship God (The Father).
Satan sought to be worshipped as God and failed and fell. Now you seek to replace Satan with Jesus to 'tempt' him to also fail and fall.
Jesus spoke in response to Satan, 'It is written: thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and only to him do sacred service'.
Why do you seek to make Jesus a liar and a Satan?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2010,06:37) So how about that Mike, your buddy Eusebius says that worship is due Him as Son of God.
Hi Kathi,And “worship” IS due him as THE SON OF GOD, not AS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. Just like “worship” was due King David. I've already showed you it's the same word….it's up to YOU to realize that the word “proskuneo” meant one thing when applied to David and Jesus, and something completely different when applied to God Himself.
JA has been screaming “obeisance” for months now, but you want to cover your ears……why? Because of your wish to apply the same “worship”, and therefore “glory” to God's Son as you do to the One who said, “I will share my glory with NO other” and “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,”.
Kathi, IS JESUS THE FATHER? If your answer is “No”, then you should not be worshipping him as you do his Father and God. And you should realize that the Jews of Jesus' day would probably have stoned to death anyone who worshipped as God someone other than Jehovah, AND the one who was being worshipped in that way.
The Pharisees saw it. The Pharisees said nothing. That's right……the same Pharisees that were chomping at the bit to find anything to accuse Jesus of. Don't you think a man “worshipping” him in front of them would count as “something to accuse him of”?
peace and love,
mikemike
Mike,
Quote The Pharisees saw it. The Pharisees said nothing. That's right……the same Pharisees that were chomping at the bit to find anything to accuse Jesus of. Don't you think a man “worshipping” him in front of them would count as “something to accuse him of”?
How many times has this been said. And they never respond…wonder why?Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 05 2010,11:20) Satan sought to be worshipped as God and failed and fell. Now you seek to replace Satan with Jesus to 'tempt' him to also fail and fall. Jesus spoke in response to Satan, 'It is written: thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and only to him do sacred service'.
Why do you seek to make Jesus a liar and a Satan?
Hi JA,I honest to God believe that if Jesus were here right now, he would tell Kathi, “Get behind me Satan, for you have in mind the things of man, not the things of God”, just like he told Peter. And Peter said what he said out of love for his Lord too.
Do you hear that Kathi?
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
I think that underlined part sums up what JA is saying to you. Out of your immense love for our Lord, you would have him overstep his bounds and grasp glory that he knows only belongs to his Father and God. Were Jesus here, your attempts to worship him as God would be a stumbling block to him.
Good point, JA.
mike
Mike,
Where have I ever said that I worship the Son AS I worship the Father? I worship the Son as the only begotten God and I worship the Father as the only unbegotten God…can you not get that? You admit that it is ok to 'worship' Him as the Son of God…that is what I do!!! When are you and JA going to 'worship' Him as the Son of God? He is not anything like a created being like David!Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2010,14:09) Mike,
Where have I ever said that I worship the Son AS I worship the Father? I worship the Son as the only begotten God and I worship the Father as the only unbegotten God…can you not get that? You admit that it is ok to 'worship' Him as the Son of God…that is what I do!!! When are you and JA going to 'worship' Him as the Son of God? He is not anything like a created being like David!
Hi Kathi,I honestly don't know how I missed that. I seriously all this time thought you worshipped the Father and Son together as a “totality of God” or whatever. Are you now saying that you offer a different “worship” to God's Son than you offer to God?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 04 2010,20:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2010,06:37) So how about that Mike, your buddy Eusebius says that worship is due Him as Son of God.
Hi Kathi,And “worship” IS due him as THE SON OF GOD, not AS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. Just like “worship” was due King David. I've already showed you it's the same word….it's up to YOU to realize that the word “proskuneo” meant one thing when applied to David and Jesus, and something completely different when applied to God Himself.
JA has been screaming “obeisance” for months now, but you want to cover your ears……why? Because of your wish to apply the same “worship”, and therefore “glory” to God's Son as you do to the One who said, “I will share my glory with NO other” and “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,”.
Kathi, IS JESUS THE FATHER? If your answer is “No”, then you should not be worshipping him as you do his Father and God. And you should realize that the Jews of Jesus' day would probably have stoned to death anyone who worshipped as God someone other than Jehovah, AND the one who was being worshipped in that way.
The Pharisees saw it. The Pharisees said nothing. That's right……the same Pharisees that were chomping at the bit to find anything to accuse Jesus of. Don't you think a man “worshipping” him in front of them would count as “something to accuse him of”?
peace and love,
mikemike
Actually Mike,
Many brave and courageous men and women were stoned to death, beheaded, fed to the lions, burned alive while people sat and cheered. These are called SAINTS and witnesses of JESUS:Rev 17:6
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
NASUSo how can you say that there was no one worshiping the Father AND the Son but just the Father only. The Jews wouldn't have killed the Son if He was just being honored like David. The Son was being worshiped as divine and they KILLED Him. Never once did the Son say to those who worshiped Him and saying that surely He was the Son of God to 'get thee behind me satan.' Not once. What nerve you have.
Everyone of those martyrs were very bold and brave and met their fate with courage. They were being led to the jail to await persecution because they would stand against those going up to do their idol worship at their idol temples…not because they were worshiping Jesus for goodness sake Mike. Learn what an idol is and what it isn't in God's eyes. His Son is never considered an idol if He is worshiped along with the Father.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:24) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 27 2010,02:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,08:04) Here is what is going to help with this discussion about 43:10
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEX
9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldean's, whose cry is in the ships.
15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
16Thus saith the LORD, which maker a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;
According to the context, God is talking about being the Only God, not an idol, not a Strange God, but the only.
God made a Claim about being the only one,
and to prove his claim, he used his “Witnesses” as his proof.
and asked any others to refute to bring out their witnesses.
Testimony was the greatest proof of the existence of God.
an Honest Testimony was always the best proofJust to stir the pot: Notice how it also says that God is the only savior! so is Jesus not a saviour, is Jesus not a king?
I just did a Post about the same Scripture about who Jesus The Word of God is. He is called God in both John 1:1-14 and Hebrew 1:8-9. However Jesus The Word of God is the Mighty God, while Jehovah God is the Almighty God, there is the difference…….. Jesus never claimed to be like the Almighty God.
Yet by His Father in Hebrew, He is called God. When we understand what the word God is, we can see that it is a title, many in Ancient times were called God's…… However The Word of God is also KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS IN Rev. 19:13-16…..He The Word of God came forth from His Father Jehovah God, and is not created out of the dust of the earth, like we are….Therefore He is in a sense not like us, yet in Human form, when He emptied Himself to become like us. Phil. 2:5 What a great and loving Father Jehovah God we have, to send His only begotten Son into the world to die for us, so we can live….We should thank Him every day for that act of Love……Peace Irene
Irene,
i dont know if you responded to my other responses that i have again and again have asked you.
I tend to lose many thread because there are so many.But i dont get it. You believe in TWO Gods, one almighty and one mighty?
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
The Lord God is indeed Echad
Sorry, but I am only quoting Scriptures in my article about God. When you go to College and get a degree in becoming a Doctor, then you are called a Doctor. It is also a title, I see God in that manner also. A Title. Both have other names. When you quote Ephesians 4:6 it does say that there is only one God and Father of all. You have to look at it that it says Father. Jehovah or YWY is His name. Just like a Doctor has a name….Also Jehovah God is LORD and Jesus is Lord. It is very simple to me…..Also what are you going to do with those Scriptures in both Hebrew, John and Rev. you just can't ignore them. At least I am not going to…. do what you please……but this is what I believe….IreneKathi:
Quote The Jews wouldn't have killed the Son if He was just being honored like David. The Son was being worshiped as divine and they KILLED Him.
Is that really what you think it was about? You are wrong, for in one breath, you say, “What do you think those Pharisees should have done when they saw Jesus being 'worshipped' by the formerly blind man?”, then in the next breath you say he was killed for this very thing the Pharisees watched and did nothing about.Kathi:
Quote Never once did the Son say to those who worshiped Him and saying that surely He was the Son of God to 'get thee behind me satan.'
And that should be enough for you to know they weren't “worshipping” him as you think. Jesus said to “worship Jehovah your God and to serve Him ONLY”. Yet you think that first, the Pharisees would have let him be worshipped as divine and not say a word. And secondly, that Jesus would have let himself be worshipped when he said there was only One who we should worship.Did you forget that the Pharisees had to bring people in to lie about Jesus to find something they could claim was worthy of his death? Did you forget that “people worshipped him as God” was never charged against him…..although you think that is the kind of worship the Pharisees saw being done to him and would have been a charge worthy of death in and of itself? Did you forget the parable of the tenants that Jesus used to explain exactly why he would be put to death?
Kathi:
Quote Learn what an idol is and what it isn't in God's eyes. His Son is never considered an idol if He is worshiped along with the Father.
Or……..you could learn what “worship Jehovah your God and serve Him ONLY” means.Kathi, I'm sorry I angered you, but you are doing with the word “proskuneo” exactly what the trinitarians do with the word “theos” in John 1:1. They know that a range of different beings are called “god” in scripture, yet only when that word is used of Jesus do they think therefore it must mean THE GOD.
Likewise, you are aware that the word “proskuneo” was used for what the man did to King David, yet only when that same word is used of Jesus do you think it means “the same kind of worship God is to recieve”. Why? And in Rev, even after Jesus had been raised and given all power and authority, the angel didn't tell John to worship “God and the Lamb”, did he? No, he said to worship “God”. And because Jesus is ALWAYS someone other than “God” in Rev, we know the angel didn't mean “God, who's 'totality' consists of the Lamb”, or some other such nonsense.
mike
Mike,
“Worship Jehovah your God and serve Him ONLY”
Because of that…
I worship HIS Son also.Because of that…
I serve the Son also.Worshiping the Father is the driving force to worship the Son as the Son of God and not some of the bizillion idols that by nature are no gods at all.
We are to obey the Father and that too is a form of worship.
John 5:22-23
22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
NASUHow do we honor the Father, by worshiping who He is, the Father.
Therefore, we give the same honor to the Son, by worshiping who He is, the Son.
Get it?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2010,00:08) Kathi: Quote The Jews wouldn't have killed the Son if He was just being honored like David. The Son was being worshiped as divine and they KILLED Him.
Is that really what you think it was about? You are wrong, for in one breath, you say, “What do you thing those Pharisees should have done when they saw Jesus being 'worshipped' by the formerly blind man?”, then in the next breath you say he was killed for this very thing the Pharisees watched and did nothing about.Kathi:
Quote Never once did the Son say to those who worshiped Him and saying that surely He was the Son of God to 'get thee behind me satan.'
And that should be enough for you to know they weren't “worshipping” him as you think. Jesus said to “worship Jehovah your God and to serve Him ONLY”. Yet you think that first, the Pharisees would have let him be worshipped as divine and not say a word. And secondly, that Jesus would have let himself be worshipped when he said there was only One who we should worship.Did you forget that the Pharisees had to bring people in to lie about Jesus to find something they could claim was worthy of his death? Did you forget that “people worshipped him as God” was never charged against him…..although you think that is the kind of worship the Pharisees saw being done to him and would have been a charge worthy of death in and of itself? Did you forget the parable of the tenants that Jesus used to explain exactly why he would be put to death?
Kathi:
Quote Learn what an idol is and what it isn't in God's eyes. His Son is never considered an idol if He is worshiped along with the Father.
Or……..you could learn what “worship Jehovah your God and serve Him ONLY” means.Kathi, I'm sorry I angered you, but you are doing with the word “proskuneo” exactly what the trinitarians do with the word “theos” in John 1:1. They know that a range of different beings are called “god” in scripture, yet only when that word is used of Jesus do they think therefore it must mean THE GOD.
Likewise, you are aware that the word “proskuneo” was used for what the man did to King David, yet only when that same word is used of Jesus do you think it means “the same kind of worship God is to recieve”. Why? And in Rev, even after Jesus had been raised and given all power and authority, the angel didn't tell John to worship “God and the Lamb”, did he? No, he said to worship “God”. And because Jesus is ALWAYS someone other than “God” in Rev, we know the angel didn't mean “God, who's 'totality' consists of the Lamb”, or some other such nonsense.
mike
Mike,
You are sorry that you 'angered me.' I've lost sleep tonight because of you calling me 'satan' and a stumbling block…being swayed by the mind of a man that believes Jesus is the second created angel. You say that you didn't realize that I worshiped Jesus as the SON of God, the begotten God, are you for real? What have we been discussing for the last several months? How many times have I said that Jesus was the unbegotten God? How many Mike? ZERO.I have clearly said that I worship the Father and the Son, not the Father and the other Father.
You have harped on me about saying that I worship the Son as the begotten God and been relentless about it, then when I show you the quote from Eusebius that we should give Him the worship due the Son of God, you are in total agreement with that. Is that not being double minded?
Are you going to apologize to me for saying that I am being a stumbling block and a satan, or not? Am I the one that teaches that Jesus is a created angel second to satan or maybe is the one that teaches this (JA) and the one that joins him in 'reproving' me (you) the stumbling blocks?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 04 2010,20:36) Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 05 2010,11:20) Satan sought to be worshipped as God and failed and fell. Now you seek to replace Satan with Jesus to 'tempt' him to also fail and fall. Jesus spoke in response to Satan, 'It is written: thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and only to him do sacred service'.
Why do you seek to make Jesus a liar and a Satan?
Hi JA,I honest to God believe that if Jesus were here right now, he would tell Kathi, “Get behind me Satan, for you have in mind the things of man, not the things of God”, just like he told Peter. And Peter said what he said out of love for his Lord too.
Do you hear that Kathi?
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
I think that underlined part sums up what JA is saying to you. Out of your immense love for our Lord, you would have him overstep his bounds and grasp glory that he knows only belongs to his Father and God. Were Jesus here, your attempts to worship him as God would be a stumbling block to him.
Good point, JA.
mike
BTW Mike,
Peter was trying to stand in the way of Jesus gaining the victory over satan by trying to keep Him from the cross, that was what Jesus was addressing, not the adoration given Him.Also, what is the 'parable of the tenants' that you mentioned in another post?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2010,16:45) Mike, “Worship Jehovah your God and serve Him ONLY”
Because of that…
I worship HIS Son also.Because of that…
I serve the Son also.
What does that even mean Kathi?Scriptures: “Worship BLACK and serve BLACK ONLY.”
Kathi: “Because of the above command, I will worship and serve both BLACK AND BLUE”.
mike
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