Does god procreate?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2010,14:10)

Mike, Scripture clearly says that Jesus is the only begotten God and in another place that He is our one Lord. You worship God, the Father and I worship God, the Father too, it's just that I believe that to worship the Father would also include the worship of His Son.

No Kathi,

Scripture clearly says he is the “only begotten god“. It is YOU and certain translators that cap the “G”, making it SEEM like Jesus is also “God”.

And why on God's green earth would you “believe that to worship the Father would also include the worship of His Son”?

Does scripture tell us that? If so, where? If not, why would you “believe” that?

mike

[Lightenup]

Actually Mike, I believe ALL translators that capitalize the G regularly for the Father God, also capitalize the G in John 1:18 when translating monogenes theos, except the NWT.

You can't worship the Son without the Father glowing with approval, imo.  You can't worship one and not the other.  It is like giving the coach the trophy but not also the player that won the competition.  Both the coach and the player get the one trophy.  Can you see that?  The coach founded the team and recruited the player, and taught the player…but the player performed what he was taught and won the victory.  Both share the same trophy.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2010,14:43)

Actually Mike, I believe ALL translators that capitalize the G regularly for the Father God, also capitalize the G in John 1:18 when translating monogenes theos, except the NWT.

And what does that tell you Kathi?  Why do you think the trinitarians hate the JW's so much?  They had the audacity to translate the scriptures as they should have been.  And that audacity takes away from their precious little man-made doctrine that says “Jesus IS God”.

WJ and I started a verse by verse debate about the NWT's translation.  Out of the 30 or so that I researched, there were 2 that I didn't agree with their translation when compared to the Hebrew or Greek text.  And neither of them changed the context of the scriptures themselves.  The only one I remember off-hand is that they translated the Hebrew words “Elohim ruwach” as “God's active force” instead of “God's Spirit”.  But there were 4 of the trinity sponsored translations that didn't even come close to conveying the thought of what the Hebrew or Greek said.  You can check it out if you want….it's in one of our debates.

It's like John 1:1.  The distinguishing factor there is that one god is called THE god, while the other is not.  So take away the caps, and one stands out as different from the other.  But cap both “gods”, and it seems like the Word actually is THE God, which is what they want you to think, even though that is NOT what John intended, for he KNEW that Jesus was the Son of God, not God Himself.

You said:

Quote

You can't worship the Son without the Father glowing with approval, imo.

I hope “your opinion” is enough to get you to eternal life.  Jesus said eternal life was taking in knowledge of both him and the Father, who is the ONLY TRUE GOD.  Where do we get this “knowledge”, Kathi?  Isn't it from scripture?  Where does scripture support “your opinion”?  Jesus himself repeated scripture to Satan and told him to “worship and serve ONLY Jehovah your God”.  Why would Jesus say this if it was “okay” to worship him also?

And your coach/player analogy doesn't even fit here, IMO.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

The Coach (the Father) didn't win the game without the Player (the Son) Mike!

The Coach and the Player created the world!
The Coach and the Player are our Savior!

The Coach did not create the world apart from the Player!
The Coach did not save us from eternal damnation apart from the Player!

They both deserve the one trophy!  They both have the same team name, not one team name with a capital letter for the coach and another team name with a small case letter for the player.  The NWT does not place the Father and the Son on the same team…yet they are!  One is the 'Coach' (the unbegotten God) and one is the 'Player' (the begotten God).

[mikeboll64]

It doesn't matter how you explain it again……it doesn't fit.  How about we use King David and one of his soldiers?  Let's use Uzziah, the one who's wife he stole.

Uzziah, under the command of King David defeated the enemy.  Who claims the victory over the enemy nation………..the single soldier who was doing his part as commanded by the king, or the King who commanded the entire army?  And which one of them is bowed down to when they are greeted?

Get the picture?

mike

[Lightenup]

If you want to used David as an example, think King Saul, David and Goliath. Who killed Goliath? Saul or David? Did King Saul win the battle over the Philistines? Yes! Did David win the battle over the Philistines? Yes! Both are credited for the victory and are both lifted up. Who would have recognized Saul for the victory and not David also? Actually, David got even more honor and that made King Saul suspicious of David from then on.

1 Samuel 18:6-11
6 It happened as they were coming, when David returned from killing the Philistine, that the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with joy and with musical instruments. 7 The women sang as they played, and said, “Saul has slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands.” 8 Then Saul became very angry, for this saying displeased him; and he said, “They have ascribed to David ten thousands, but to me they have ascribed thousands. Now what more can he have but the kingdom?”

Btw, I thought Bathsheba's husband was Uriah and he died, so asking which one was bowed down to is rather irrelevant.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,09:35)

It doesn't matter how you explain it again…… mike

I cant stand when Mike says such things!
This is another example mike, when someone makes a point,
and your ONLY refutation is It doesnt fit,
or it doesnt make sense.

And ppl go by what you say so that they can convince you,
This is the start of the forever cycle of arguements

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2010,21:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 30 2010,11:50) Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 This view is different than the current trinitarian view of three Gods in one triune being. This is a misrepresentation of the truth. Read the Athanasian Creed. There are not 3 Gods that make one God. That is the way you see God as being 2 beings that make God. We believe there is only one being who is YHWH and Jesus is YHWH. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) A triune God is not what I see represented in scripture. In scripture I see plainly that the one true God is the Father who has a Son and a Spirit. No you believe there is “One True God” but Jesus is also a True God, it can't be both! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) The Son wasn't always begotten… HMMM, how am I supposed to read that? Do you mean there was a time the Son exist yet wasn't begotten? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) …and the Spirit of the Father wasn't always proceeding from the Father. Do you have scripture for that. Can you show me where the Forefathers believed the Spirit wasn't always proceeding from the Father? Was there a time that the Spirit didn't exist? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) The Son is a person after His begetting, before His begetting He was a pre-person whatever that would be.  The Spirit isn't a person but the personal Spirit of God, not as a force. Again this is only your opinion and not substantiated by the scriptures or even the Forefathers is it? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) When you read this verse, picture the Father together with His Son and His Spirit as much a part of Him as His own wisdom and word is. “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 I see them as One God, One Spirit, not as 2 Gods who share a spirit which is your view. “‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6 “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8 “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18 Please explain to me how the above scriptures allow for “a begotten God”? WJ Hi Keith, You said: Quote No you believe there is “One True God” but Jesus is also a True God, it can't be both! This is what I believe: There is one True unbegotten God…the Father and one true begotten God…the Son.

Kathi

That is extra biblical and the terms “Unbegotten God” and “Begotten God” are not found in scriptures.

You have 1 ambiguous verse for begotten God and thats it.

There is “Only One True God” period.

WJ

[JustAskin]

I like the part where Mike says, 'The single soldier [out of the whole army of the King] who was just doing his job'.

Just one righteous soldier who triumphed over his companions and won the praise and glory of his King…yet it is the King alone who is worshipped.

Honor the [Soldier], Worship [The King].
LU, is this not what Scriptures says?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58)

Well hello there Mr. Worshipping Someone OTHER THAN The Only True God Whom We Are Required By Scripture To Worship ONLY,

Ha Ha. Yes I do “worship” the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Tim 6:15 – Rev 17:14 – 19:16) for he is my Great God and Savour (Titus 2:13, 14) and My Lord and God (John 20:28) and the Only True God (John 1:1, 18 – 1 John 5:20) and he is my only Sovereign and Lord (Jud 1:4, 5) and he alone is worthy of honour and Glory and Power and praise and dominion forever and ever (Rev 5:11-14) and he was worshipped and called God by his followers (Matt 8:2 , 9:18, 14:23, 15:9, 15:25, 18:26, 28:9, 28:17, 20:20 – Mark 5:6, 5:19, 7:7 – Luke 24:52, John 9:38, 10:25) not to mention the Forefathers from the early first century to the current day.

I worship Jesus according to the scriptures Mike, for example…

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and “worshipped him. Matt 28:9

Now take note once again Mike since you do not seem to hear this though it has been stated many times before, the Greek word for worship is the same word Jesus said we are to worship the Father in Spirit and in truth by. John 4:24

Nowhere is this word in the NT practiced on men or angels by the followers of Jesus other than the Father and Jesus where it was not discouraged, for instance…

And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and “fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, “STAND UP; I MYSELF ALSO AM A MAN”. Acts 10:25, 26

You do see what Peters response was don’t you Mike? Why didn’t Jesus tell his followers to do the same thing?

So when you say I am not supposed to worship Jesus then you are going to have to prove that by scriptures for a whole lot of worshipping is going on to Jesus and not once did Jesus like Peter say do not worship me.

Can you prove by scripture that the Greek word for worship should not be translated as worship? It is us that follow the scriptures and what is given to the Son, for you do not give the Son the same honour as the Father Mike and without the Son you can’t have the Father. John 5:23

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 31 2010,16:06)

Because, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the One True God and satan is a false god.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58)

False and unscriptural.  Jesus said THE FATHER was that “only true God”, not a combo of three.

Ha Ha Mike, you say this while you claim that Jesus is “a true god” as well as satan and others. Your belief that there is “Only One True God” yet there are other “true gods” is false and unscriptural and the definition is Polytheism.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58)

And Paul said we have “but one God, THE FATHER”, who is someone other than our “one Lord, Jesus Christ”.

You can’t have it both ways here Mike for if Paul meant that “One God” is exclusive to the Father and that means Jesus is not God then Jesus being the “One Lord” means that the Father is not Lord, is that what you believe? Do you think that is what Paul believed?

Paul also calls Jesus his Great God and Savour. (Titus 2:13, 14)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58)

Also, how do you figure Satan is a “false god”?  Does scripture tell you that?

Does scriptures tell you that he is a “true god”, is satan a “true anything? Maybe he is a true liar, oh but that would be an oxymoron wouldn’t it? Satan is not a God at all for the scriptures clearly tell us that there is “Only One True God”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58)

He and his demons seemed pretty “real” to Jesus and the people he freed from them.

Does real mean true? Are you saying demons are gods too?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58)

Jesus likened Satan to a “strong man” who had to be tied up in order to take something from him.  Hmmm…..couldn't a “strong man” be considered a “mighty one”?

HMMM, So everyone or every thing that was a “Strongman” is a god?  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58)

Like say, Goliath……..wasn't he considered a “mighty one”?  I wonder what word the Hebrews and Greeks sometimes used for “mighty one”………..oh, that's right – it was “god”.

Do you have a scripture that calls Goliath “God” or do you have any scripture that says any other being is called God except for that which is “false gods” made by men or who usurps power for evil? According to you everything that was a “Mighty one” is a “true god” isn’t that right Mike, even though YHWH says…

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2010,16:13)

Btw, I thought Bathsheba's husband was Uriah and he died, so asking which one was bowed down to is rather irrelevant.

Hi Kathi,

You are correct, his name was Uriah, not Uzziah like I “remembered”.  

And JA said it way better than I did:
Just one righteous soldier who triumphed over his companions and won the praise and glory of his King…yet it is the King alone who is worshipped.

Honor the [Soldier], Worship [The King].
LU, is this not what Scriptures says?

Beautifully put JA!

Uriah did die galiantly fighting as a servant of his king.  Jesus also died while galiantly battling for HIS King.  They are both heros and deserve honor and praise…..Jesus more than any other servant history speaks of.

But like JA so wonderfully points out, the worship goes ONLY to the King, not the servants……..even if they are heros.

peace and love,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,05:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2010,16:13) Btw, I thought Bathsheba's husband was Uriah and he died, so asking which one was bowed down to is rather irrelevant. Hi Kathi, You are correct, his name was Uriah, not Uzziah like I “remembered”.   And JA said it way better than I did: Just one righteous soldier who triumphed over his companions and won the praise and glory of his King…yet it is the King alone who is worshipped. Honor the [Soldier], Worship [The King]. LU, is this not what Scriptures says? Beautifully put JA! Uriah did die galiantly fighting as a servant of his king.  Jesus also died while galiantly battling for HIS King.  They are both heros and deserve honor and praise…..Jesus more than any other servant history speaks of. But like JA so wonderfully points out, the worship goes ONLY to the King, not the servants……..even if they are heros. peace and love, mike

So Jesus is just like Moses, and Uriah, david and everyone else…

So the Son of God, is just like like any other hero of the scriptures…..

[mikeboll64]

Hi Keith,

WJ:

Quote

Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58) Well hello there Mr. Worshipping Someone OTHER THAN The Only True God Whom We Are Required By Scripture To Worship ONLY, Ha Ha. Yes I do “worship” the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Tim 6:15 – Rev 17:14 – 19:16) for he is my Great God and Savour (Titus 2:13, 14) and My Lord and God (John 20:28) and the Only True God (John 1:1, 18 – 1 John 5:20) and he is my only Sovereign and Lord (Jud 1:4, 5) and he alone is worthy of honour and Glory and Power and praise and dominion forever and ever (Rev 5:11-14) and he was worshipped and called God by his followers (Matt 8:2 , 9:18, 14:23, 15:9, 15:25, 18:26, 28:9, 28:17, 20:20 – Mark 5:6, 5:19, 7:7 – Luke 24:52, John 9:38, 10:25)

You list a load of scriptures here Keith.  Should we maybe go through them one at a time and find out if they are really saying Jesus is God Almighty and that we should worship him?  Yes……let's do please.  Actually, I can kill the last bolded 15 of them with one punch.

2 Samuel 1:2 NIV
On the third day a man arrived from Saul’s camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honour.

The Hebrew word used for the part I bolded is “shachah”, which means:

shachah
1) to bow down
  1a) (Qal) to bow down
  1b) (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
  1c) (Hithpael)
     1c1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
        1c1a) before superior in homage
        1c1b) before God in worship
        1c1c) before false gods
        1c1d) before angel

It is the same word used for the worship of God, angels, one's superior, and even false gods.  But that's not all.  The LXX translates 2 Samuel 1:2 using the word “proskuneo”.  And as you pointed out:
Now take note once again Mike since you do not seem to hear this though it has been stated many times before, the Greek word for worship is the same word Jesus said we are to worship the Father in Spirit and in truth by. John 4:24

You are correct Keith that it is the same word Keith.  But what exactly DID “proskuneo” mean?

proskuneo
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
  3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
     3a1) to the Jewish high priests
     3a2) to God
     3a3) to Christ
     3a4) to heavenly beings
     3a5) to demons

Isn't that very similar to the meanings of the Hebrew word “shachah”?  Both words could mean just to bow down to show reverence, OR……pay homage such as to God Himself or even false gods.  So the question now becomes whether the “worship” shown to Jesus was the same as the “worship” shown to King David in 2 Samuel 1:2, or the same as the “worship” shown to God Almighty Himself.  How can we figure it out?

John 9:35-41 NIV
35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
36″Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Keith, do you think that the Pharisees, who were already looking for a reason to kill Jesus, would have sat back and watched this formerly blind man “worship” Jesus as if he was God Himself and said nothing?  Do you think they would have let this man “worship” ANYONE as if he were God without saying something?  Doesn't that tell you that the “worship” given Jesus on earth was the “reverence” kind, not the “homage to God” kind?

Enough said about the “worship” of Jesus?  Or should we add the fact that Jesus himself told Satan that we are to worship Jehovah our God, and serve Him ONLY?

This kind of stuff is why I like to get you and Jack backed into a corner where you can't run, so we can finally see that which you claim is happening, isn't really happening at all.  Because you know that is exactly how ALL of your trinity “proofs” are.  They look convincing on the outside, but when you peel off the layers of deceit and mis-translations, etc, they don't amount to anything close to what you were claiming in the first place.

Now about your “Jesus is God” scriptures……let's just take one of them for now.  You said:

Quote

he is my Great God and Savour (Titus 2:13, 14)

Let's see if that's REALLY what Titus 2:13 says, shall we?  This is what the Greek actually says:

awaiting the happy hope and manifestation of the great god AND of savior of us, christ jesus

Most translations like to ignore the fact that the word “savior” is in the genitive form, which means that in English, we add “of” in front of it.  So Titus 2:13 doesn't say ” of the great God and Savior of us, Jesus Christ”, but instead, “of the great God AND of [the] Savior of us, Jesus Christ”.

How can I be so sure?  Well, among the many, many times Paul clearly distinguishes between God and Jesus, here is what he says earlier in the same book of Titus:

Titus 1:4 NIV
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Now does this sound like a man who thought Jesus was the same being as God?  Remember this is the same man who said, “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” If Paul had only added “the Father” after “God” in 2:13 like he does in 1:4 and many other similar sentences he wrote, you trinitarians wouldn't have been able to even PRETEND Paul calls Jesus “God”.

If you like, I could list many more times Paul shows that Jesus is someone other than God. In the mean time, Keith, if you think you have A scripture that says we should worship Jesus or that says Jesus is God, post it and we can discuss it. Don't flood the post with so many of them that it would take me many hours and many words to refute. There are a couple of the “worship” scriptures you listed that don't even refer to Jesus…..but God Himself. Yet you list them as if they are yet another scripture
that says we should worship Jesus. Isn't that called “stacking the deck”, Keith?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 02 2010,11:47)

So Jesus is just like Moses, and Uriah, david and everyone else… So the Son of God, is just like like any other hero of the scriptures…..

Dennison,

I'm about to start ignoring your posts altogether.  You waste a lot of my time by making me jump through unnecessary hoops.  Just like now with these two unnecessary questions you've asked…….the answer is:

IS THAT WHAT I POSTED, DENNISON?

Or did I say that Jesus deserves MORE honor and praise than ANY OTHER SERVANT IN HISTORY?

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,06:57)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 02 2010,11:47) So Jesus is just like Moses, and Uriah, david and everyone else… So the Son of God, is just like like any other hero of the scriptures….. Dennison, I'm about to start ignoring your posts altogether.  You waste a lot of my time by making me jump through unnecessary hoops.  Just like now with these two unnecessary questions you've asked…….the answer is: IS THAT WHAT I POSTED, DENNISON? Or did I say that Jesus deserves MORE honor and praise than ANY OTHER SERVANT IN HISTORY? mike

=P

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 01 2010,10:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2010,21:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 30 2010,11:50) Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 This view is different than the current trinitarian view of three Gods in one triune being. This is a misrepresentation of the truth. Read the Athanasian Creed. There are not 3 Gods that make one God. That is the way you see God as being 2 beings that make God. We believe there is only one being who is YHWH and Jesus is YHWH. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) A triune God is not what I see represented in scripture. In scripture I see plainly that the one true God is the Father who has a Son and a Spirit. No you believe there is “One True God” but Jesus is also a True God, it can't be both! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) The Son wasn't always begotten… HMMM, how am I supposed to read that? Do you mean there was a time the Son exist yet wasn't begotten? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) …and the Spirit of the Father wasn't always proceeding from the Father. Do you have scripture for that. Can you show me where the Forefathers believed the Spirit wasn't always proceeding from the Father? Was there a time that the Spirit didn't exist? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) The Son is a person after His begetting, before His begetting He was a pre-person whatever that would be.  The Spirit isn't a person but the personal Spirit of God, not as a force. Again this is only your opinion and not substantiated by the scriptures or even the Forefathers is it? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) When you read this verse, picture the Father together with His Son and His Spirit as much a part of Him as His own wisdom and word is. “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 I see them as One God, One Spirit, not as 2 Gods who share a spirit which is your view. “‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6 “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8 “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18 Please explain to me how the above scriptures allow for “a begotten God”? WJ Hi Keith, You said: Quote No you believe there is “One True God” but Jesus is also a True God, it can't be both! This is what I believe: There is one True unbegotten God…the Father and one true begotten God…the Son. Kathi That is extra biblical and the terms “Unbegotten God” and “Begotten God” are not found in scriptures. You have 1 ambiguous verse for begotten God and thats it. There is “Only One True God” period. WJ

Keith,
I have one verse that says 'begotten God' and that is all I need.  How many verses say 'triune God?'  Or…the one true God, Jesus Christ?  ZERO!  

And, unbegotten God was used plenty by the early church fathers and in the creeds.  The concept is totally scriptural.  You believe that God always existed and came from no one.  That is what unbegotten God means.

I saw where you listed John 1:1 and 1 John 5:20 as your support that Jesus was the one true God.  Huh?  Not at all!

1 John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him (the Father) who is true; and we are in Him (the Father) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NASU

I added 'the Father' for clarity.

Through being in Christ, we are in the Father who is true.

And of course John 1:1 speaks of the God being with God.  The creed says 'God of God' and the creed also says:

“Nicene Creed

“I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.”

The creed says that the one God is the Father Almighty.  Then the God OF (from) that one God (the Father) is the Son.

Read this, the one true God is the Father, it couldn't be more clear:

John 17:3-5
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
NASU

The 'You' is the Father, not the Son.

[Lightenup]

Keith,
The Athanasian Creed tells all that the Father is not begotten:

“Athanasian Creed
…21.The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten…”

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the creed is saying that the Father is unbegotten. We know that the Son calls His Father the only true God and therefore the 'unbegotten God.' Unless you can show me that the Father was begotten which we know you can't.

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 01 2010,16:46)

I like the part where Mike says, 'The single soldier [out of the whole army of the King] who was just doing his job'. Just one righteous soldier who triumphed over his companions and won the praise and glory of his King…yet it is the King alone who is worshipped. Honor the [Soldier], Worship [The King]. LU, is this not what Scriptures says?

Hi JA,
Where does the scriptures say that?

[Lightenup]

Mike,
The NWT translates proskuneo as giving obeisance when it is being given to the Son because they see the Son as a created being, not as a procreated being and not of the same nature as the Father. Therefore they will translate accordingly. I thought that you see the Son as divine and as the procreated being and of the same nature as the Father. If you do, then the Son is the God of God and you can worship Him because He is 'of' God. God the Father has a mind, a will, a heart, a Spirit, a Son, etc. All these things belong to the one true God, the Father. You can't separate Him from what belongs to Him. It isn't like, “I think that I will just worship God's mind.” No, you worship the complete God, not just a part of God. The complete God is the Father with a Spirit and a Son and a mind and will, etc. You do not worship a Father who has no Spirit or a Son or mind or will, etc.

In other words, you can't worship the Father who just has a mind and no will. That would not be a true Father would it because the true Father has a mind and a will. The true Father also has a Spirit and a Son. That is the true Father. So when you worship the true fullness of the Father, you worship who He is entirely, not just in part.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2010,09:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 31 2010,16:06) Did Paul say [Satan] was his God or a true God? Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:58) Did Paul ever say either of those things about Jesus? Yep, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, 14.

Okay Keith,

I already addressed Titus 2:13 in my previous post.  I assume you are talking about one of the newer trinitarian translations of Romans 9:5, such as the NIV's,

Romans 9:5 (New International Version)

5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

Let's see what that footnote “a” has to say,

Footnotes: a
Romans 9:5 Or Christ, who is over all. God be forever praised! Or Christ. God who is over all be forever praised!

Let's see how the KJV (as well as the actual Greek) puts it,

Romans 9:5 (King James Version)

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The KJV translation has it word for word as the Greek mss.

Come on now Keith.    Here's just some of the things Paul has said:

Romans 1:7
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

1 Cor 1:9
God is faithful, by whom you were called into fellowship with his son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Cor 1:3
Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 1:3-4
Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age according to the will of our God and Father

Eph 1:1
From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

Phil 1:11
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ to the glory and praise of God.

Col 1:3
We always give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 Thess 1:9-10
you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

2 Thess 1:8
With flaming fire he will mete out punishment on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1 Tim 1:1
From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

2 Tim 1:2
Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord!

Titus 1:1
From Paul, a slave of God and apostle of Jesus Christ

Philemon 1:3
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Heb 1:4
Thus he became so far better than the angels

How does God “become” MORE superior to the angels He created that He has always been?  And it's hard to even count the number of times Paul says, “Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!”

Can you actually with a straight face sit here and claim that this same Paul somehow thought Jesus WAS God by mis-translating two little scriptures?    Did you notice what I did?  I looked in every book Paul wrote for referrences that Jesus is someone other than God, and I didn't EVER have to go farther than the first chapter in any of them to get my quote.

Come on Keith…….get real.

mike

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