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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,10:09) You left out the word “exact”. If someone is an “exact” representation of you then it is you or it is not “exact” is it?
Keith,Look up the word “representation”. Even if Jesus was an EXACT CARBON COPY of God, he is still NOT the original, or he wouldn't be called a REPRESENTATION OF THE ORIGINAL.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 23 2011,11:10)
Hi Keith,The word “exact representation” is the Greek “charakter” and means “indistinguishable.”
Hi Jack,“Charakter” is also the word for the MARK left by an engraving tool. The MARK left, while reflecting the image OF the tool, is not the tool itself.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 23 2011,11:10)
Of course Jesus is not the Father. Duh! Trinitarians do not teach that Christ is the Father. But as the “indistinguishable representation” of the Father He is therefore God like the Father.
Jack, is this over your head? Does it say he is the exact representation of………….THE FATHER? NO, sir. It says “GOD”. And like I said before, if it DID say FATHER, you just MIGHT have a leg to stand on. Because then Jesus could be “God the Son” who is just like the Father. But since it says “GOD”, Jesus cannot possibly “God the Son” who is just like “God”. For one to be LIKE God, that one cannot BE God.peace and love,
mikeMike wrote:
Quote “Charakter” is also the word for the MARK left by an engraving tool. The MARK left, while reflecting the image OF the tool, is not the tool itself.
Mike,So you would reject the translations which say that Jesus is the EXACT representation of the Father's substance? The statement that Jesus is the 'charakter' of the Father's substance was made in inconnection with His just having been called the RADIANCE of the Father's glory. That's “RADIANCE” and not “reflection” Mike!
That which is the RADIANCE of something comes from the very core of that thing. Jesus is the light which radiates FROM the Father's being.
IT'S ALL ABOUT CONTEXT MIKE!
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2011,19:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,10:09) You left out the word “exact”. If someone is an “exact” representation of you then it is you or it is not “exact” is it?
Keith,Look up the word “representation”. Even if Jesus was an EXACT CARBON COPY of God, he is still NOT the original, or he wouldn't be called a REPRESENTATION OF THE ORIGINAL.
mike
MikeOK. But what is the difference Mike?
If a hammer is the exact representation of a hammer then you would still call it a hammer and in every way it is a hammer just like the one that it is an exact representation of.
Consider the language of the writer saying that Jesus is the “Exact Representation” of an infinite being.
How can this be unless he is God?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2011,03:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2011,19:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,10:09) You left out the word “exact”. If someone is an “exact” representation of you then it is you or it is not “exact” is it?
Keith,Look up the word “representation”. Even if Jesus was an EXACT CARBON COPY of God, he is still NOT the original, or he wouldn't be called a REPRESENTATION OF THE ORIGINAL.
mike
MikeOK. But what is the difference Mike?
If a hammer is the exact representation of a hammer then you would still call it a hammer and in every way it is a hammer just like the one that it is an exact representation of.
Consider the language of the writer saying that Jesus is the “Exact Representation” of an infinite being.
How can this be unless he is God?
WJ
Keith,Mike keeps on adding his own ideas to the scripture. Jesus is called the 'radiance' of the Father's glory. Yet Mike keeps calling Him the 'reflection' of the Father when the scripture does not say that at all.
Jack
Jack and Keith,
Please show me any instance in the history of the world where someone or something that was said to be a REPRESENTATION of someone or something was actually that first thing they were the REPRESENTATION of.
If you or Jack or SF can do this, I will listen to your further OPINIONS on this matter. If you cannot, then MY understanding, common sense, and pure logic will reign supreme and you will have to admit that for one to be a REPRESENTATION OF someone, he can't possibly BE that someone.
I've asked all three of you now in three different threads. Let's see if I get an answer.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2011,21:36) Jack, One question: YES or NO.
Does the creation of God RADIATE the glory of God?
mike
MikeYou see Mike. This is what we are talking about. Jack has already answered you here.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 16 2011,09:59) Mike, Why won't you prove your thesis? If all creation radiates the glory of God, then how is Jesus set apart from all others? Hebrews 1:1-6 clearly distinguishes Jesus from all the angels. How is Jesus any different from the angels if “all creation radiates the glory of God”? Jesus and not the angels nor any created thing is identified as the “RADIANCE of God's glory.”
No Mike! “The scripture says that the creation DECLARES the glory of God“. Only Jesus is the “RADIANCE of His glory and the EXACT representation of His person.”
Jack
But you choose to ignore him and ask the question again.The creation declares the Glory of God, the creation is not “THE radiance of Gods Glory”
Big difference.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2011,21:32) Jack and Keith, Please show me any instance in the history of the world where someone or something that was said to be a REPRESENTATION of someone or something was actually that first thing they were the REPRESENTATION of.
Mike I posted the answer to this in the other thread…Once again, that is the problem isn't it Mike? You don't have any example where someone can be the “exact representation” of someone else. Every human beings DNA is different yet so close. But Paul says Jesus is the “Exact representation” of his essence or person, the infinite God.
You don't get it Mike. The language that Jesus is the “exact representation” of the infinite God could only mean that he is God.
The fact that Paul also says Jesus is “in very nature God” and that he is the “image of the invisible God” or “the visible image of God” who is infinite is proof that Jesus is in every way God like the Father.
So please do not come back and say I didn't answer you or ask it again.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2011,02:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2011,21:36) Jack, One question: YES or NO.
Does the creation of God RADIATE the glory of God?
mike
MikeYou see Mike. This is what we are talking about. Jack has already answered you here.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 16 2011,09:59) Mike, Why won't you prove your thesis? If all creation radiates the glory of God, then how is Jesus set apart from all others? Hebrews 1:1-6 clearly distinguishes Jesus from all the angels. How is Jesus any different from the angels if “all creation radiates the glory of God”? Jesus and not the angels nor any created thing is identified as the “RADIANCE of God's glory.”
No Mike! “The scripture says that the creation DECLARES the glory of God“. Only Jesus is the “RADIANCE of His glory and the EXACT representation of His person.”
Jack
But you choose to ignore him and ask the question again.The creation declares the Glory of God, the creation is not “THE radiance of Gods Glory”
Big difference.
WJ
Thanks Keith!Mike either deliberately ignores our posts or he does not read them. Then he FALSELY accuses us of hiding.
Jack
My apologies. I remember the “declares” part of your post, Jack. But I never even noticed the unbolded “No” in your original.
And I'm also sorry we disagree on this, for I think everything God made radiates His glory – Jesus more so than any of His other creations.
Keith, since none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes, in the future maybe you could just show where I missed his original answer without all the song and dance and insults and ridicules.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2011,03:04) Once again, that is the problem isn't it Mike? You don't have any example where someone can be the “exact representation” of someone else.
No Keith,The problem is YOURS, for YOU don't have another example to give. Why? Because there are none.
Since the history of the world and recorded human language, no one who has ever been compared TO someone actually WAS that someone he was compared to.
Jesus is often COMPARED TO God. He is the visible image OF his invisible God, so he can't BE that God. He is the exact representation OF his God, so he can't BE that God.
Don't you get how this works? Keith, you cannot be the exact representation OF Keith, because you ARE Keith. You can not be the spitting image OF Keith, because you already ARE Keith.
And if YOU can't find any other instance in the history of recorded literature where one was a REPRESENTATION of himself, then you have no choice but to admit that when Jesus was compared TO his God, it clearly meant he couldn't have BEEN that same God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2011,21:35) The problem is YOURS, for YOU don't have another example to give. Why? Because there are none.
No MikeWe already have our example of Someone being the “exact representation” of another, it is the Father and Jesus.
Your attempt at weak natural, carnal, human comparisons do not cut it when it comes to the infinite God. Do you get it Mike or will you continue to misrepresent that Jesus is the “exact representation” of the Father?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,09:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2011,21:35) The problem is YOURS, for YOU don't have another example to give. Why? Because there are none.
No MikeWe already have our example of Someone being the “exact representation” of another, it is the Father and Jesus.
Your attempt at weak natural, carnal, human comparisons do not cut it when it comes to the infinite God. Do you get it Mike or will you continue to misrepresent that Jesus is the “exact representation” of the Father?
WJ
WJthis is what scriptures are saying;1Co 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.a image is a image not the real thing ,No??
if the son is the father then why call it son ,would this not be misleading from God ?? this would be totally imposible to do from God,the God of truth??
would you not agree that you try to push your opinion first then the scriptures,??
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2011,13:03) would you not agree that you try to push your opinion first then the scriptures,??
No! I am taking the scripture for what it says…The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION” of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
You and Mike are the ones trying to force the scripture to say something else!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,05:45) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2011,13:03) would you not agree that you try to push your opinion first then the scriptures,??
No! I am taking the scripture for what it says…The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION” of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
You and Mike are the ones trying to force the scripture to say something else!
WJ
Amen! Hebrews explicitly declares that Jesus is the RADIANCE of the Father's glory and the EXACT representation of His substance. By way of illustration this means that the Father and the Son have the exact same DNA. Therefore, they are ontoligically identical.“He that has seen me has seen the Father.”
But Mike reduces the word 'radiance' to mean 'reflection' when the two words do not mean the same thing at all. That which is the radiance of something comes from the very being of that thing. That which reflects a thing reflects it because the radiance of that thing bounces off it and makes it reflect.
The moon reflects the sun because the rays which radiate from the sun bounce off the moon. Christ is the radiance of the Father. We are the reflectors of the Father because the glory of Christ bounces off us.
Jack
Hi WJ and Jack,
Does god procreate? (Ps.82:6 / Rom.8:16)
Do you consider yourself a “Son of God”?Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 03 2011,15:14) Hi WJ and Jack, Does god procreate? (Ps.82:6 / Rom.8:16)
Do you consider yourself a “Son of God”?
No, God doesn't procreate. God creates sons.However Jesus is not one of the “sons” for he is the “Only Begotten Son” who was always with the Father.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,08:10) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 03 2011,15:14) Hi WJ and Jack, Does god procreate? (Ps.82:6 / Rom.8:16)
Do you consider yourself a “Son of God”?
No, God doesn't procreate. God creates sons.However Jesus is not one of the “sons” for he is the “Only Begotten Son” who was always with the Father.
WJ
Keith,It would be more accurate to say that God adopts sons.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 07 2011,16:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,08:10) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 03 2011,15:14) Hi WJ and Jack, Does god procreate? (Ps.82:6 / Rom.8:16)
Do you consider yourself a “Son of God”?
No, God doesn't procreate. God creates sons.However Jesus is not one of the “sons” for he is the “Only Begotten Son” who was always with the Father.
WJ
Keith,It would be more accurate to say that God adopts sons.
Jack
JackTrue, it is obvious that the scriptures teach that 'Begotten” does not always mean “sons through child birth”.
WJ
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