Does god procreate?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 30 2010,03:51)

You are misunderstanding me when I say that Satan also was called God.  That does not mean that I am comparing Satan to Jesus, just that all are called God. Jesus is the Mighty God, Satan is not….. When it comes to if Jesus was created. He was.  Scriptures in Col. 1:15 He is the firstborn of all creation. Rev. 3:14 ….. the beginning of the creation of God….You also think because they are called God, that will make them God and that is not so….They do have other names….I think sometimes it is hard to explain to another what exactly one means……. Peace Irene

And thats why irene that we argue so much, becaus its hard to explain over a simple forum. yet we might have agreed the whole time.

Anyways,
I understood what you meant about Satan, but i was comparing the situations to differ from the situation with Christ.

I understand that Scripture state that he is a mighty God, it also says that God is a mighty God?
Joshua 22:22
“The Mighty One, God, the LORD! The Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to the LORD, do not spare us this day.
Psalm 132:2
How he sware unto the LORD, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob;
And there are many other references that refer to the LORD as the Mighty God and as the Almighty,

Typical people use this to say that Jesus is called the MIGHTY God,
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Basically what im asking Irene, you can ignore everything else if you would like.
but what im asking is Who is Jesus,
you say he is a “Mighty God”
ok what IS that? Another God? one with God Almighty?

You say taht Jesus was created, yet the WoRD was never expressed to be created.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,07:47)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,06:58) Here is my problem, you equating Satan with Jesus. and your saying both are callled God but are not God. that still defeats your purpose of why there should be ANY other God but THE ONLY GOD. It Goes back to the question, What is the Son of God to you, another God SEPERATE from the LORD God?   WE know that Satan is not a God but has territory as a God to the Godless. Hello Everyone, What if we just used the word “leader” instead of the word “god”? I think that would solve alot of problems.  Jesus is a wonderful leader, but he is in no way THE LEADER. Satan is a leader in his own right, and has many followers – including a third of the angels THE LEADER created – but Satan is not THE LEADER. So in effect Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my leader!”  Does this mean Thomas thought that Jesus was THE LEADER?  I doubt it.  Would Jesus and John have both let it go if that was the case?  Of course not, because both of them taught that Jesus was the Son of THE LEADER, not THE LEADER Himself. Jesus, while being a leader himself, PRAYED to THE LEADER.  And this leader called Jesus taught us that our LEADER was also his LEADER.  He also said that everlasting life was the taking in of knowledge of the Father, who is THE ONLY TRUE LEADER, and that LEADER's Son, whom the LEADER had sent into the world to be the instrument through whom that LEADER would save mankind. John 1:1 says that in the beginning, the Word was with THE LEADER, and was a leader himself. I don't think certain ones of us are as confused about the Biblical use of the term “god” as they pretend to be.  I think most of us understand it fully well, but some must resort to these “god-games” to further their doctrine. Using the word “leader” in place of every instance of the word “god” in the Bible, I wonder if anyone could show me any scriptures that imply that the leader Jesus was in fact the same being as THE LEADER. This would also clear up the “real leader/false leader” stuff.  Satan is most definitely a REAL leader.  He exists, he has followers, so he is a real leader.  But he is not the “only true LEADER”…….the One who is the LEADER above all other leaders…….the One to whom all other leaders must eventually answer.   And by using the word “leader”, I would have no problem whatsoever in proclaiming that Jesus was “my leader”.  I would still understand that the leader Jesus answers to a higher LEADER, as do we all. peace and love, mike

Ya Mike but the thing is that the Greek is not like the Hebrew of the Bible.

We complain and bicker so much about what God means because the greek like david has said is not specfic to what it is meant by God.

Where as in the Hebrew text it is VERY strict and straight forward to what it is meant.
From Jehovah to Yaweh to any other name.

Unless we all agree that the Greek just general meant God totality, which we know that could not be so.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49)

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 This view is different than the current trinitarian view of three Gods in one triune being.

This is a misrepresentation of the truth. Read the Athanasian Creed. There are not 3 Gods that make one God.

That is the way you see God as being 2 beings that make God.

We believe there is only one being who is YHWH and Jesus is YHWH.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49)

A triune God is not what I see represented in scripture. In scripture I see plainly that the one true God is the Father who has a Son and a Spirit.

No you believe there is “One True God” but Jesus is also a True God, it can't be both!

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49)

The Son wasn't always begotten…

HMMM, how am I supposed to read that? Do you mean there was a time the Son exist yet wasn't begotten?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49)

…and the Spirit of the Father wasn't always proceeding from the Father.

Do you have scripture for that. Can you show me where the Forefathers believed the Spirit wasn't always proceeding from the Father? Was there a time that the Spirit didn't exist?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49)

The Son is a person after His begetting, before His begetting He was a pre-person whatever that would be.  The Spirit isn't a person but the personal Spirit of God, not as a force.

Again this is only your opinion and not substantiated by the scriptures or even the Forefathers is it?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49)

When you read this verse, picture the Father together with His Son and His Spirit as much a part of Him as His own wisdom and word is. “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

I see them as One God, One Spirit, not as 2 Gods who share a spirit which is your view.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 30 2010,16:55)

Hi Mike, Justin Martyr isn't going to jump the hurdle either: “Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.” from: from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xiii.html Don't you think that is interesting?

I find the word “reasonbly” interesting. Since the same word is used for both the “worship” of King David AND the “worship” of God Almighty, I wonder which one Martyr was meaning.

Do you know when he lived? He is most definitely a trinitarian from the sounds of it.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,19:20)

Even the Cheribums in front of his throne hides there faces and what not in the presence of God.

Hi Dennison,

Where did you learn that?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 31 2010,03:50)

I see them as One God, One Spirit, not as 2 Gods who share a spirit which is your view. “‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6 “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8 “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18 Please explain to me how the above scriptures allow for “a begotten God”?

Hi Keith,

How do they allow for Satan being the God of this age?  Does Paul say he is a fake God?  A false God?  Doesn't Paul say it very plainly when he says there are many “gods”, but only one GOD?

Jesus is that one GOD's Son, not that one GOD Himself. Unless maybe you are aware of any other instance known to mankind where someone's son is also the same exact being as that one?

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,04:34)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,19:20) Even the Cheribums in front of his throne hides there faces and what not in the presence of God. Hi Dennison, Where did you learn that? mike

Hey Mike,
This is what i know, that basically these angels or whatever they are hide(cover) their faces when they are in the presence of the Lord who is on the Throne.

Here are some of the verses.
Let me correct my self to say that it was seraphs not cheruibums that were hiding their face, but i noted that the discreption of Churebuims are almost like the description noted in revelations.

Isaiah's Commission
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
      “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
      the whole earth is full of his glory.”

1 Samuel 4:4
So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth between the cherubims: and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God

Psalm 99:1
The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
Psalm 99:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 99 (Whole Chapter)
46.Isaiah 37:16
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Ezekiel 10:14
And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Revelation 4:7-9
7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,12:46)

Isaiah's Commission 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:       “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;       the whole earth is full of his glory.”

Hi Dennison,

This is the only scripture you posted that said anything about faces being covered, and it doesn't say it is because they aren't allowed see God.

The other scriptures you listed concern the ark of the covenant which was made like this,

18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.

It doesn't say their faces were covered.  And we've already discussed the following scripture before,

Matthew 18:10
[ The Parable of the Lost Sheep ] “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

I haven't seen anything yet that would imply that angels can't see the face of God.

peace and love,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,07:32)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,12:46) Isaiah's Commission 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:       “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;       the whole earth is full of his glory.” Hi Dennison, This is the only scripture you posted that said anything about faces being covered, and it doesn't say it is because they aren't allowed see God. The other scriptures you listed concern the ark of the covenant which was made like this, 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. It doesn't say their faces were covered.  And we've already discussed the following scripture before, Matthew 18:10 [ The Parable of the Lost Sheep ] “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. I haven't seen anything yet that would imply that angels can't see the face of God. peace and love, mike

Actually mike you misunderstood what i said,

1. First i corrected my self to say seraphins
2. i stated that there is a connection between those angels and the cheribums which was the cause of the mix up.
3. I just added a diffrent reference about the cherbuims, which included the ark.
4. i noted the similiarties between the last two verses.
5. i just posted a bunch of scripture so you can understand the idea of what im talking about.

and in conclusion,
I never said they were not allowed, you put that in my mouth.
neither have i said that angels could never see the face of God.
You assumed i meant that.

What i simply said that they hide (cover) their faces in front of the throne where the presence of God is.

what does the parable got to do with it?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,14:27)

and in conclusion, I never said they were not allowed, you put that in my mouth. neither have i said that angels could never see the face of God. You assumed i meant that. What i simply said that they hide (cover) their faces in front of the throne where the presence of God is.

Dennison, this is what you said:

Quote

But i believe in a Totality of God thats unknowable, thats power is so vast its impossible to know all of God.  Even the Cheribums in front of his throne hides there faces and what not in the presence of God.

I took that to mean that God's powerful being is so vast that even angels have to cover their faces in His presence.

If that was NOT what you meant, then what was?

And once again, where do you get your information that they hide their faces in the presence of God?

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,09:48)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,14:27) and in conclusion, I never said they were not allowed, you put that in my mouth. neither have i said that angels could never see the face of God. You assumed i meant that. What i simply said that they hide (cover) their faces in front of the throne where the presence of God is. Dennison, this is what you said: Quote But i believe in a Totality of God thats unknowable, thats power is so vast its impossible to know all of God.  Even the Cheribums in front of his throne hides there faces and what not in the presence of God.   I took that to mean that God's powerful being is so vast that even angels have to cover their faces in His presence. If that was NOT what you meant, then what was? And once again, where do you get your information that they hide their faces in the presence of God?   mike

I ASSUMED it meant that, It goes behind the Logic that the Hebrews had that FEAR of God, that if they saw him they would die.  That seeing God in any sense would mean that you would die.  

And Isaiah presents that the Serpahs (which are angels) cover their faces and feet and fly with the last two remaining wings.  
they are in the Throne room of God, who is seated on the Throne,
So Im ASSUMING that they are hiding their faces because they are also worshiping him and talking about his Glory.

I dont know WHY they cover their faces, i can only assume.
buts its A scriptural FACT that they cover their faces with TWO wings in the THRONE room of God, I just dont know exactly “WHY”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 31 2010,03:50)

I see them as One God, One Spirit, not as 2 Gods who share a spirit which is your view. “‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6 “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8 “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18 Please explain to me how the above scriptures allow for “a begotten God”?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,18:42)

Hi Keith, How do they allow for Satan being the God of this age?

Hi Mike

Because, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the One True God and satan is a false god.

For instance…

“‘Thus saith the LORD (Yĕhovah) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (Yĕhovah) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. .” Isaiah 44:6

Who is speaking here? YHWH says his redeemer is the YHWH of Host. Jesus also said he is the first and the last! Together they say “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”. Until you see this you will never be able to reconcile all of scripture without twisting and spinning them out of existence and making them of none effect.

I noticed you put the capitol “G” for satan. First of all Paul says he is the “god” of this world. Not a god of God or a god to a believer. Get it? To the world he is “a god” who usurps power over men by blinding their eyes.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,18:42)

Does Paul say he is a fake God?  A false God?

Did Paul say he was his God or a true God? Didn’t Paul say…

We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is NO GOD BUT ONE.  

Didn’t YHWH say…

“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,18:42)

Doesn't Paul say it very plainly when he says there are many “gods”, but only one GOD?

Yes he says…

For even if there are “SO CALLED GODS, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:5

They are So-called gods and lords to the world, but for us there is only One God and One Lord. So then all other gods and lords to us are not gods and lords at all. They are false.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,18:42)

Jesus is that one GOD's Son, not that one GOD Himself. Unless maybe you are aware of any other instance known to mankind where someone's son is also the same exact being as that one?

Faulty logic as if the term “Son of God” is antithetical to the title “God” which does not describe identity, for instance you are the son of a human but are you not also human?

I notice you have no problem calling satan “God”, yet it seems that you avoid calling Jesus “God” or as you have been arguing Jesus is the “Only Begotten God”, if that is true Mike, then how can he be God like the others if he is the “Only Begotten God” and if that is true then why don’t you call him your “Only Begotten God”? You do see the inconsistency here don’t you?  

WJ

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote

I notice you have no problem calling satan “God”, yet it seems that you avoid calling Jesus “God” or as you have been arguing Jesus is the “Only Begotten God”, if that is true Mike, then how can he be God like the others if he is the “Only Begotten God” and if that is true then why don’t you call him your “Only Begotten God”? You do see the inconsistency here don’t you?

Im sorry Let me act like the “Roo” and say i find this funny
Haha… im tearing up….
No offense

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 01 2010,06:29)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,09:48) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,14:27) and in conclusion, I never said they were not allowed, you put that in my mouth. neither have i said that angels could never see the face of God. You assumed i meant that. What i simply said that they hide (cover) their faces in front of the throne where the presence of God is. Dennison, this is what you said: Quote But i believe in a Totality of God thats unknowable, thats power is so vast its impossible to know all of God.  Even the Cheribums in front of his throne hides there faces and what not in the presence of God.   I took that to mean that God's powerful being is so vast that even angels have to cover their faces in His presence. If that was NOT what you meant, then what was? And once again, where do you get your information that they hide their faces in the presence of God?   mike I ASSUMED it meant that, It goes behind the Logic that the Hebrews had that FEAR of God, that if they saw him they would die.  That seeing God in any sense would mean that you would die.   And Isaiah presents that the Serpahs (which are angels) cover their faces and feet and fly with the last two remaining wings.   they are in the Throne room of God, who is seated on the Throne, So Im ASSUMING that they are hiding their faces because they are also worshiping him and talking about his Glory. I dont know WHY they cover their faces, i can only assume. buts its A scriptural FACT that they cover their faces with TWO wings in the THRONE room of God, I just dont know exactly “WHY”

Aughhhhhh!

Why, Dennison, why?  Do you see the part of your quote that I put in red?  You said something that I took a certain way, then you chastised me for taking it that way by saying it was all in my head, AND THEN YOU POST THAT WHAT I HAD THOUGHT WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!  

SF:

Quote

I ASSUMED it meant that, It goes behind the Logic that the Hebrews had that FEAR of God, that if they saw him they would die.  That seeing God in any sense would mean that you would die

Why would you compare what angels are capable of with what men are capable of?  MAN cannot see the face of God and live according to scripture.  But there are specific scriptures that say angels can.

SF:

Quote

And Isaiah presents that the Serpahs (which are angels) cover their faces and feet and fly with the last two remaining wings.   they are in the Throne room of God, who is seated on the Throne, So Im ASSUMING that they are hiding their faces because they are also worshiping him and talking about his Glory.

I think you are assuming too much, especially in light of scriptures that clearly say angels CAN see the face of God.  Who knows…….maybe those angels were hiding their faces from Isaiah to conceal their identity.  

SF:

Quote

I dont know WHY they cover their faces, i can only assume. buts its A scriptural FACT that they cover their faces with TWO wings in the THRONE room of God, I just dont know exactly “WHY”

It's not so much a “scriptural fact” as it is one instance in the whole Bible where angels have covered their faces with one set of wings.  We have no indication that it only happens in the throne room of God, or only in His presence.  And we have no indication as to why it happened on this one occasion at all.  Maybe that's just the way that Seraphs fly…….who knows?

The bottom line is that you posted something as scriptural fact that had been embedded in your mind because that's how YOU understood it when you first read it.  I've done it at least three times on HN and was called on it by Nick twice and Jack once.  It happens…..no biggie, but aren't you glad you now know the truth of the matter?  I was sure glad they pointed out my misunderstandings so I didn't keep going around claiming something that WASN'T scriptural WAS.  Plus now I know the scriptural truth about those things.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Well hello there Mr. Worshipping Someone OTHER THAN The Only True God Whom We Are Required By Scripture To Worship ONLY,

WJ:

Quote

Because, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the One True God and satan is a false god.

False and unscriptural.  Jesus said THE FATHER was that “only true God”, not a combo of three.  And Paul said we have “but one God, THE FATHER”, who is someone other than our “one Lord, Jesus Christ”.  Also, how do you figure Satan is a “false god”?  Does scripture tell you that?  He and his demons seemed pretty “real” to Jesus and the people he freed from them.  Jesus likened Satan to a “strong man” who had to be tied up in order to take something from him.  Hmmm…..couldn't a “strong man” be considered a “mighty one”?  Like say, Goliath……..wasn't he considered a “mighty one”?  I wonder what word the Hebrews and Greeks sometimes used for “mighty one”………..oh, that's right – it was “god”.

WJ:

Quote

For instance… “‘Thus saith the LORD (Yĕhovah) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (Yĕhovah) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. .” Isaiah 44:6 Who is speaking here? YHWH says his redeemer is the YHWH of Host.

The Hebrew doesn't actually say what the KJV translated Keith…….here's a better one,

NIV Isa 44:6
“This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: 'I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.'”

Come on man……YHVH doesn't have a “redeemer”.  Even if Jesus WAS God ( ), why would one person in the Godhead have to be a “redeemer” to one of the other ones?  

WJ:

Quote

I noticed you put the capitol “G” for satan.

What, you don't like that?  Good!  I made my point then.  Just because someone caps the “G” in the word “god” does not mean that one is all of a sudden God Almighty, does it?  Now you know how I feel every time I see one of you guys cap the “G” in referrence to Jesus, who is also not God Almighty.

WJ:

Quote

Did Paul say [Satan] was his God or a true God?

Did Paul ever say either of those things about Jesus?

WJ:

Quote

We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is NO GOD BUT ONE.

Hmmm……..I wonder WHO Paul said that ONE GOD was?  Oh yeah – he said it was THE FATHER.

WJ:

Quote

for instance you are the son of a human but are you not also human?

Let's take this one to a new level Keith.  In fact, I'll post a debate topic for it.  I'm going to start doing that for many of these same things we go over and over with no results.  

WJ:

Quote

I notice you have no problem calling satan “God”, yet it seems that you avoid calling Jesus “God” or as you have been arguing Jesus is the “Only Begotten God”, if that is true Mike, then how can he be God like the others if he is the “Only Begotten God” and if that is true then why don’t you call him your “Only Begotten God”? You do see the inconsistency here don’t you?

 

And I'll start a thread for this last point of yours too, because I've explained it and explained it, but you still bring it up as if it really means something.

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,05:00)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 01 2010,06:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,09:48) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,14:27) and in conclusion, I never said they were not allowed, you put that in my mouth. neither have i said that angels could never see the face of God. You assumed i meant that. What i simply said that they hide (cover) their faces in front of the throne where the presence of God is. Dennison, this is what you said: Quote But i believe in a Totality of God thats unknowable, thats power is so vast its impossible to know all of God.  Even the Cheribums in front of his throne hides there faces and what not in the presence of God.   I took that to mean that God's powerful being is so vast that even angels have to cover their faces in His presence. If that was NOT what you meant, then what was? And once again, where do you get your information that they hide their faces in the presence of God?   mike I ASSUMED it meant that, It goes behind the Logic that the Hebrews had that FEAR of God, that if they saw him they would die.  That seeing God in any sense would mean that you would die.   And Isaiah presents that the Serpahs (which are angels) cover their faces and feet and fly with the last two remaining wings.   they are in the Throne room of God, who is seated on the Throne, So Im ASSUMING that they are hiding their faces because they are also worshiping him and talking about his Glory. I dont know WHY they cover their faces, i can only assume. buts its A scriptural FACT that they cover their faces with TWO wings in the THRONE room of God, I just dont know exactly “WHY” Aughhhhhh! Why, Dennison, why?  Do you see the part of your quote that I put in red?  You said something that I took a certain way, then you chastised me for taking it that way by saying it was all in my head, AND THEN YOU POST THAT WHAT I HAD THOUGHT WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!   SF: Quote I ASSUMED it meant that, It goes behind the Logic that the Hebrews had that FEAR of God, that if they saw him they would die.  That seeing God in any sense would mean that you would die Why would you compare what angels are capable of with what men are capable of?  MAN cannot see the face of God and live according to scripture.  But there are specific scriptures that say angels can. SF: Quote And Isaiah presents that the Serpahs (which are angels) cover their faces and feet and fly with the last two remaining wings.   they are in the Throne room of God, who is seated on the Throne, So Im ASSUMING that they are hiding their faces because they are also worshiping him and talking about his Glory. I think you are assuming too much, especially in light of scriptures that clearly say angels CAN see the face of God.  Who knows…….maybe those angels were hiding their faces from Isaiah to conceal their identity.   SF: Quote I dont know WHY they cover their faces, i can only assume. buts its A scriptural FACT that they cover their faces with TWO wings in the THRONE room of God, I just dont know exactly “WHY” It's not so much a “scriptural fact” as it is one instance in the whole Bible where angels have covered their faces with one set of wings.  We have no indication that it only happens in the throne room of God, or only in His presence.  And we have no indication as to why it happened on this one occasion at all.  Maybe that's just the way that Seraphs fly…….who knows? The bottom line is that you posted something as scriptural fact that had been embedded in your mind because that's how YOU understood it when you first read it.  I've done it at least three times on HN and was called on it by Nick twice and Jack once.  It happens…..no biggie, but aren't you glad you now know the truth of the matter?  I was sure glad they pointed out my misunderstandings so I didn't keep going around claiming something that WASN'T scriptural WAS.  Plus now I know the scriptural truth about those things. peace and love, mike

Mike it was purely conejecture,
I realized that from the Start.

Its scriptural fact that it happened, thats what i meant.
I assumed the rest.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 30 2010,11:50)

Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 This view is different than the current trinitarian view of three Gods in one triune being. This is a misrepresentation of the truth. Read the Athanasian Creed. There are not 3 Gods that make one God. That is the way you see God as being 2 beings that make God. We believe there is only one being who is YHWH and Jesus is YHWH. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) A triune God is not what I see represented in scripture. In scripture I see plainly that the one true God is the Father who has a Son and a Spirit. No you believe there is “One True God” but Jesus is also a True God, it can't be both! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) The Son wasn't always begotten… HMMM, how am I supposed to read that? Do you mean there was a time the Son exist yet wasn't begotten? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) …and the Spirit of the Father wasn't always proceeding from the Father. Do you have scripture for that. Can you show me where the Forefathers believed the Spirit wasn't always proceeding from the Father? Was there a time that the Spirit didn't exist? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) The Son is a person after His begetting, before His begetting He was a pre-person whatever that would be.  The Spirit isn't a person but the personal Spirit of God, not as a force. Again this is only your opinion and not substantiated by the scriptures or even the Forefathers is it? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,11:49) When you read this verse, picture the Father together with His Son and His Spirit as much a part of Him as His own wisdom and word is. “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 I see them as One God, One Spirit, not as 2 Gods who share a spirit which is your view. “‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6 “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8 “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5 “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18 Please explain to me how the above scriptures allow for “a begotten God”? WJ

Hi Keith,

You said:

Quote

No you believe there is “One True God” but Jesus is also a True God, it can't be both!

This is what I believe:
There is one True unbegotten God…the Father and one true begotten God…the Son.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2010,13:25)

This is what I believe: There is one True unbegotten God…the Father and one true begotten God…the Son.

Yet Jesus says the Father is the “ONLY true God”.  And Paul says “we have but ONE God, THE FATHER…”.

When will you people start just following what scripture says?

Why do you all feel the need to put Jesus above (trinitarians and Kathi) or below (non-preexisters) what scripture PLAINLY says he was?

He is the Son of God who existed and had glory in God's presence before the world was created.  In fact, the heavens and the earth were created through him.  His origins are from ancient times, and he was brought forth as the first of God's works.  He emptied himself and underwent being begotten as a human being at the will of his Father and God, just to teach us how we must also be willing to humble ourselves to serve others.  He went so far as to suffer a very painful death as a once for all time sacrifice that his God made so that He could still consider Himself righteous in ever calling any of us righteous.

He died, and his God – the ONLY God – raised him back to life.  He now sits at the right hand of his God as a servant to Him.  And his God has given him the right and great honor of ruling for Him for an unspecified time period, the end of which will have Jehovah taking back the reigns and ruling mankind directly.  He will dwell among us and be our God……and we will be His people.  And we will worship Him day after day for eternity as the ONLY ONE SCRIPTURE EVER SAYS TO WORSHIP AS GOD.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Scripture clearly says that Jesus is the only begotten God and in another place that He is our one Lord. You worship God, the Father and I worship God, the Father too, it's just that I believe that to worship the Father would also include the worship of His Son.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2010,08:10)

Mike, Scripture clearly says that Jesus is the only begotten God and in another place that He is our one Lord. You worship God, the Father and I worship God, the Father too, it's just that I believe that to worship the Father would also include the worship of His Son.

I like that! =)

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