Does god procreate?

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 10 2010,22:44)

LU,
With reference to your quoted passage:
Why would someone make a decree in secret?
What would be the point?
A decree is to be SHOUTED OUT so everyone can hear it.

So this is why your man claims it is in secret…because there was NO ONE else to hear it.

I put this point out already but it seems that 'Wisdom' made everyone ignore it.

So here it is again, 'Why would a decree be made in private?', 'Who was there to here the decree, such a wonderful decree:thou art my Son?'

Do you remember the quip i made to Mike, Jesus, 'Daddy, who am i?'. God, 'you are my son, today i begot you (became your father)'

So then, who, or what, was 'Jesus' before he was begotten, before he was begotten, before God became his father and the father possessed him as Son?

Does God Procreate?
Does Scriptures say it?
Don't fall in the trap or go for the ba-it
WJ asked the question and then left it
Mikeboll took it on
Now it's back to 'the Son'
Such a tiresome post, don't you just hate it?

Let's get back to the thread
To what the topic title said
Till it can be put to bed
Directly from God…meaning 'procreated'.

JA,

Here is a definition of a decree:

Quote

Decrees of God-

— “The decrees of God are his eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations, and determining their certain futurition. The several contents of this one eternal purpose are, because of the limitation of our faculties, necessarily conceived of by us in partial aspects, and in logical relations, and are therefore styled Decrees.” The decree being the act of an infinite, absolute, eternal, unchangeable, and sovereign Person, comprehending a plan including all his works of all kinds, great and small, from the beginning of creation to an unending eternity; ends as well as means, causes as well as effects, conditions and instrumentalities as well as the events which depend upon them, must be incomprehensible by the finite intellect of man. The decrees are eternal (Acts 15:18; Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13), unchangeable (Ps 33:11; Isa 46:9), and comprehend all things that come to pass (Eph 1:11; Matt 10:29,30; Eph 2:10; Acts 2:23; 4:27,28; Ps 17:13,14).

The decrees of God are (1) efficacious, as they respect those events he has determined to bring about by his own immediate agency; or (2) permissive, as they respect those events he has determined that free agents shall be permitted by him to effect.

This doctrine ought to produce in our minds “humility, in view of the infinite greatness and sovereignty of God, and of the dependence of man; confidence and implicit reliance upon wisdom, rightenousness, goodness, and immutability of God's purpose.”
from Easton's Bible Dictionary

This definition does not indicate that a decree, in order to be a decree, has to be shouted.

Quote

So here it is again, 'Why would a decree be made in private?', 'Who was there to here the decree, such a wonderful decree:thou art my Son?'

The Son heard the decree and revealed that decree through David who wrote about it.

God gave decrees privately all the time as He gave His decrees to His prophet to give to others. God wasn't typically proclaiming His decrees to an audience, He spoke them privately through His Spirit to an audience of one…which ever prophet it was whom He was dealing with at the time.

Quote

So then, who, or what, was 'Jesus' before he was begotten, before he was begotten, before God became his father and the father possessed him as Son?

This is a good question. The early church fathers often say that He was eternal substance within the Father that was begotten before the ages as the offspring/son of God.

Quote

Does God Procreate?
Does Scriptures say it?

Does God beget, did He begat a literal Son? That is the same question you ask when you ask “Does God Procreate?” Procreation means to bring into existence another of the same kind. Procreate and beget are synonyms. To beget also has other meanings as well but not all would produce a Son of the exact representation of His Father's nature. Procreation does that.

Is the Son of God a literal Son? I do believe that He is. Scriptures call Him an ONLY begotten Son which sets Him apart from all others called sons of God.

October 11, 2010 at 4:57 am#219530

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2010,23:23)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2010,09:47)

Mike,
Certainly when that was said would be on the day He was begotten and as we agree with the majority of early church leaders on this, it was before the ages.

Hi Kathi,

Just so you don't miss it, I just researched this little tidbit:

Heb 1:5 has the word “ever” in it. Here's the scoop as related to JA:

pote
1) once i.e. formerly, aforetime, at some time

And just like that, one more little piece of the puzzle falls into place for me. It means, “to which of the angels did God AT SOME TIME say 'Today I have begotten you.'” In other words, like I've been saying all along, Paul was never trying to say the day that Jesus was raised was the “Today” that was mentioned in the Psalm.

You like that one?

peace and love,
mike

Good Mike,
I thought you already got that though. It is interesting that you were answering JA about the decree thing at the same time that I was, only you posted your answer while I was still in process. We are basically saying the same thing. Nice!

October 11, 2010 at 5:11 am#219534

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2010,15:57)

We are basically saying the same thing. Nice!

Hi Kathi,

Except for the “what was Jesus before” question…….but I already knew that one was coming!

We will live to do battle on that another day, my friend.

peace and love and goodnight,
mike

October 11, 2010 at 5:14 am#219535

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2010,15:57)

Good Mike,
I thought you already got that though

Nope. I never even noticed the “ever” before today. At least not that I remember. I'm happy about it though.

October 11, 2010 at 8:48 am#219544

JustAskin

Participant

Oh hard of understanding ones..
To which of the angels did He ever say, 'today….'

Even more this pertains to 'that present time', seeing that 'Angels' are refered to in the 'Past tense'.

“Today….” for which of them previously did God ever say that, yet today he said that to him.

To which of them, yeah, even them…to which of the MIGHTY Gods in the heavens did he ever say that to? None, to none of them. Yet, 'today' he said it to him, to the one who conquered, to the one who overcame, to the one who did the mighty deed, even unto death, having faith beyond hope, that he would be raised again by the father, and was. Yes, to him, and him only did God said, 'Today I have begotten you', in as much as 'they are ALL Sons of God', this one is now the 'Begotten Son', being in the form of man and abiding by all that God, his father demanded and required if him.

Therefore he is preEminent, by the Flesh AND the Spirit, worthy to be called 'Son of God [from the flesh to spirit]' as was Adam [in the Flesh and the Spirit] in the day of his creation (but who fell at the test)

So, therefore, ALL mankind has the lead by that one, to also become 'Son of God' [from the flesh to the Spirit] as Scriptures says they who overcome and conquer will also.

Mike a Kathi, do you see that it is by the lead that Jesus gave us that 'we', the 'we' who overcome, who conquer sin in the flesh as Jesus did, will become as he is, and God his father and God 'their' father will also say to them, 'You are my Son, today, this day, i have begotten you. Welcome in your spirit, to your heavenly abode along side your preEminent brother, heir apparent, Jesus the Christ, firstborn from 'the dead', reborn from flesh to the spirit, as you are reborn from flesh to spirit'

Mike and Kathi, it is to the new creation, that the decree pertains, for there was no one to hear the decree before there was time, before there was a creation, before there was anything nor anyone to declare a decree to.

Mike, quoting what some other person said from from deep dark desperate research, does not make your point any more valid.
Scratching around on the Internet will always dredge up something that agrees with what YOU want to believe, and I keep warning you about that.

Mike, it is pointless. Anything that you research there, can always be used against you, so you won't get anywhere, just locked in a stalemate!

You have set yourself a question to answer, and i hope you use Scritures to answer it.

Albeit that this thread is about 'Does God procreate'.

WJ, this is your thread. Where is your control, your administration, your input?

October 11, 2010 at 9:16 am#219546

JustAskin

Participant

Mike,
Why would someone compare bananas with pears and say, 'With which pear did he ever make banana dacaree out of'?

Jesus was in the form of Man when the decree was made.
When he was in the form of Angel this was not said …'to which of the Angels…'

Therefore if you then say that Jesus was NOT Angel, then in what was Jesus before he became man?

Mike, you would need to invent a new species, because Scriptures does not describe any other species in Heaven other than God and Angels.

Or else, you will need to say that Jesus was God, and thereby, agree with the trinitarians (in part anyway, two thirds part).

Perhaps you are hung up on the word 'Angel'…you don't want to think of Jesus as 'an Angel'.

Well, what does Scriptures say? In the Old Testament, God clearly has no problem calling him, 'My Angel', 'for My name is in him', and 'for he makes his Angels messengers'.

Saying one is 'Angel' does not belittle the enormity of their might and power. Add in authourity, and you have an immensely powerful spirit entity. Do not believe that 'Angels' are soft fluffy creatures with wings as portrayed by television and in paintings. This is done so as to not frighten children and to make an unneccessary distinction between 'Good Angels and Bad Angels'.
Angels can be absolutely fearsome and gruesome, they can be like a flame of fire, any force required in the visible tangible world in order to carry out that commission given to them by God, because that they MUST Do. So Jesus having the 'form of God' only underlines the immense power that he had. Your debate with WJ over this issue is like two children arguing over 'is water wet?'

Mike, let me ask you something.
When you read what JustAskin writes, do you learn anything? Or do you just look for things to dispute and refute?

I guess so, and that also explains why you can't move forward…break out of the circle of debate that you are forever in.

October 11, 2010 at 12:13 pm#219551

Participant

JA,
You have received your answer from me and were not ignored. Try to understand from another perspective than your own. You are in a 'Jesus is an angel' rut.

I am certainly not alone in understanding the phrase in Psalms 2:7 the way that I do and you have not convinced me otherwise.

October 11, 2010 at 3:07 pm#219553

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 10 2010,06:49)

WJ, Id like to apologise to you for argueing like I did in your thread.

JA, I'm sorry.

LU, I should never have fought back and should have dropped it. So I apologise for not doing so. And if in the future I do the things you say I do, please remind me I'm doing it, that's all I need. A friendly reminder. I will try harder from now on, and I mean it.

Shimmer

Thanks!

I have said that you have a “good heart”, though we all must gaurd against anger and unforgivenessin in our hearts. LU and I have had some heated rounds but I am convinced that she also has a “Good heart”.

My computer has a virus and I may not be posting much for a couple days.

October 11, 2010 at 9:51 pm#219568

shimmer

Participant

Hi WJ, thanks.

We do have to watch ourselves. I need to be more humble and work hard to keep it up, internet forums are different than real life, but we all learn as we go,

As another poster said…Philippians 2:1-5

“If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:”

Computer virus, ok, I have never got those, not yet anyway ?

October 12, 2010 at 1:01 am#219580

Blocked

Hi JA,

That's quite a spin you put on it brother!

JA:

Quote

Yet, 'today' he said it to him, to the one who conquered, to the one who overcame, to the one who did the mighty deed, even unto death, having faith beyond hope, that he would be raised again by the father, and was.

Was the “today” that Paul said those words the exact “today” that Jesus was raised up to heaven and “begotten”? I think not, especially considering Paul quoted Psalm 2:7 on several different occasions, so let's scratch that one altogether.

JA:

Quote

Even more this pertains to 'that present time', seeing that 'Angels' are refered to in the 'Past tense'.

“Today….” for which of them previously did God ever say that, yet today he said that to him.

OR………(let me add a sentence or two here)……Paul said, “Jesus, who was begotten by God before the ages as the first of His works, has always been higher than the angels who were created through him. For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son. Today I have begotten you?' That's right people, none of the mere angels were actually begotten by their God Himself, only Jesus who was always something better and higher than the angels. That is why out of all of the 'sons of God', Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. And even though God was the ONLY being to whom the angels ever bowed down since their creation, now that Jesus has successfully completed this very important mission his God sent him on, God was pleased to have His own fullness dwell in His Son, and has decided to give His Son all power and authority to rule in His stead for a while. So when Satan's time has come to an end, and Jesus begins to reign over earth in the power and majesty of his God, at this time ALL knees in heaven and on earth will bow to the one made 'King of kings and Lord of lords' by his God.

How's that? That's is exactly how I understand the scriptures…….in a nutshell. It is my TRUE belief and I have learned much more about the scriptures than I ever thought I would know just trying to scripturally defend this belief on HN. Your are right about me liking to debate JA. But mostly because every time someone posts a different understanding than mine, I have no choice but to research and learn even more about the scriptures in a effort to find out who's understanding is scriptural truth.

My understanding has been scripturally proven wrong by Kathi, Nick, and others on this site. And each time I have graciously thanked that other for showing me my error and have adjusted my understanding to be more aligned with the scriptures.

So while you are correct that I love to discuss and debate scriptures, you are incorrect in your assumption that it is only because I like to argue. I am learning SO MUCH through this process.

Anyway……..are you ever going to explain how everything visibe AND INVISIBLE came into being through Jesus if he wasn't the literal “firstborn of all creation”? Nothing (including the angels) came into existence without God's Son JA. So how can he just be “one of the many sons of God”, and how could Satan be God's “real” firstborn if he was created through Jesus?

peace and love,
mike

October 12, 2010 at 2:06 am#219587

Blocked

Hi JA,

Your logic is flawed.

JA:

Quote

Mike,
Why would someone compare bananas with pears and say, 'With which pear did he ever make banana dacaree out of'?

No, it's more like Jesus alone is the banana, and Paul said, “To which of the pears did God ever say, 'You will be yellow and have a skin that is easily peeled off.' ?” The answer is that God said that ONLY to the BANANA, not to any of the pears. Do you understand?

JA:

Quote

Therefore if you then say that Jesus was NOT Angel, then in what was Jesus before he became man?

Scripture says he was “in the form of God” before he became man. And while we know the angels are also spirit beings, none of them were said to be “in the form of God”. Plus we know Jesus must have been something “better” or “higher” than them, for they were all created through him. Will you ever either acknowledge or refute this scriptural fact?

JA:

Quote

Mike, you would need to invent a new species, because Scriptures does not describe any other species in Heaven other than God and Angels.

First, don't ever make the mistake of thinking that just because we don't know of other heavenly beings, that means there are none. Second, the four creatures who worship before God's throne day and night in Revelation are not said to be “angels” are they?

JA:

Quote

Perhaps you are hung up on the word 'Angel'…you don't want to think of Jesus as 'an Angel'.

If you are using the word “angel” to describe a “messenger” – which is what it means – then Jesus most definitely was an “angel”. And I agree with you that angels can be very fierce and awe-inspiring. In fact, I agree with everything you just posted about angels.

Where you and I differ is on whether Jesus is JUST an angel. You seem to think he was equally just one of the many “sons of God” who dwelt in heaven before God exalted him. Yet I find that hard to believe when every single angel was created through him. That means he was first. And that's what I understand Paul to be saying in Col 1:15-16. To me, Paul is saying that there is no doubt that Jesus is the “FIRSTBORN of all creation”, because all the rest of creation came to be THROUGH him – therefore he HAD to exist before any of the others, which makes him the FIRST.

JA:

Quote

Your debate with WJ over this issue is like two children arguing over 'is water wet?'

And what of it?!? This is what I don't understand about you and Shimmer and some others here. If I claim that water is “very wet”, and WJ claims that water is “somewhat wet”, and we decide to debate that for years…….what's it to ya? What if I go through the entire Bible and every theological website known to man searching for scriptural proof that water is “very wet”? I'm learning so much else as I go, and that is a good thing in my eyes. And if I have to painstakingly go through each and every scripture to defend my understanding that water is “very wet”, then look at how much other stuff I've just learned in the process.

The point is, if you don't enjoy the topic or are bored with it……then go to a different thread. You can see that this thread has branched of into many lines of thought that are miles away from the original topic, but that's how if often goes here. But why do you guys get all judgemental about what WE are discussing, or how long we've been discussing it? If you don't like it, then don't read it.

The same goes with the way I research and post. If you don't want to research NETNotes or Strong's – then more power to ya. But who are you to try to change the way I do it? Who are you to tell me my way is “wrong”? I like my way……..I'm sorry you don't. But it is my post, and I have the right to research and post it any way I like, right? Do I also have the right to do it my way without your numerous comments about how I'm foolish to do it this way?

JA:

Quote

Mike, let me ask you something.
When you read what JustAskin writes, do you learn anything? Or do you just look for things to dispute and refute?

Honestly JA, I usually just skim over them and look for points of interest – whether that point is something I can give you kudos for, or take you to task for. And I many times post acknowledgements of the brilliant points you make. Your style of posting is similar to SF's and the Professor's. It is SO, SO many words to say what you could have said in two sentences. And your posts are usually intermixed with senseless (to me anyway) rhymes and many insults and ridicules.

I've told you this before. I've also told you it makes it easy on the rest of us when you quote the part of another's post you are responding to. I've also told you that quoting the scripture(s) that defends your point is helpful. I also prefer “short and to the point” and “one point at a time” posts.

I don't tell you this because the way you post is a pet peave of mine. I tell you this in order for us to have a more fruitful discussion. If you want to discourse with me about a subject, and you want to be sure I read your post, then “short and to the point” will work every time. Eliminate all the extra “blah, blah, blah”, and make your post clear and concise.

Okay, that's my input. But I say those things as suggestions, not as insults to how you already do it, okay? You are free to post however you want…….please allow me to do the same without interference or judgements.

peace and love,
mike

October 12, 2010 at 4:04 am#219606

shimmer

Participant

JA,

With what you were saying here, I just remembered, I went to an Adventist church, they believe Jesus to be an Angel, the Archangel Michael, so this might interest you, they are Trinitarians but Jesus was an Angel… Trinitarians ?

Taken from here
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/michael.htm

What is an Angel?

The word angel in the Bible is a translation of the Hebrew Malak or the Greek Aggelos, both of which mean “messenger.”

There are three basic uses of the word.

1. A supernatural being created by God, superior to man. This is the most common use of the term. This is what the apostle was talking about in the first chapter of Hebrews:

“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:4)

2. In some Bible passages Malak and Aggelos refer, not to superhuman beings, but to prophets and others fulfilling the function of a messenger. (2 Samuel 3:14; Ezekiel 23:16; Haggai 1:13; Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:24; and Revelation 1:20)

3. In some passages the term applies to Deity.

The Angel of Jehovah: In the book of Genesis, the angel of the Lord found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel?

“And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the “Lord” and “God.” This is not to suggest that God is a created being, but rather that the word “angel” or messenger is sometimes used to refer to Deity.

When Abraham was about to slay his son, “the angel of the Lord” called to him (Genesis 22:11, 15). Who was this angel?

“And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son….” (Genesis 22:15, 16)

When Moses saw the burning bush, “the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush.” (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

“Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” (Exodus 3:6)

In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

“This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. (Acts 7:37, 38)

Is Jesus an Angel? Only in the sense that He is a messenger, called the Angel of Jehovah. He is the One who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, whose name was “I Am.” In the New Testament He identifies Himself as the great “I Am.” (John 8:58)

He is decidedly not a created angelic being. The divinity of Christ is clearly spelled out in Scriptures. Hebrew the first chapter clearly differentiates between Jesus and those supernatural beings called angels.

“Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they”. (Hebrews 1:4)

The messianic prophecies did not foretell the coming of an angel to redeem the human race.

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:7)

When Joseph received the divine message regarding the birth of Jesus, the angel quoted the words of Isaiah.

“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” (Matthew 1:23)

The Gospel of John presents Jesus as God. “The Word was with God and the Word was God.” (John 1:1) In writing to the Philippians Paul refers to Jesus “Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Philippians 2:6) Writing to the Colossians he says, “For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” (Colossians 2:9)

On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, “See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus.” (Revelation 19:10)

Worship of a creature was clearly prohibited in the Bible.

Worship of the Creator was another matter. Jesus accepted worship. Of the Canaanite woman it was said, “Then came she and worshipped Him…” (Matthew 15:25). When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:28)

Is the Archangel a created being?

The Greek word archaggelos is compounded from archi, a prefix denoting “chief” and the word aggelos, “messenger.” He is the Chief Messenger. He is not an angel, but rather the Commander of angels. An archbishop is not a bishop, but is over the bishops. An archdiocese is not a diocese, though it may contain many diocese. The president of the United States is the “chief” of the armed forces of his country. That does not make him a soldier. The fact that the Archangel is the Chief of all of the angelic host, does not imply that He is a created being.

III. Is there any Scriptural Basis for Concluding that Michael refers to Christ?
The name “Michael” means Who is like God? The activities of Michael could not be performed by a created being, but only by the power of divinity.

Whose Voice Raises the Dead?

“The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. “Whose voice is it?” “The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (John 5:25)

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (John 5:28)

Paul says that it is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. John says that it is the voice of the Son of God. No creature has the power over death. Only Jesus has that power.

“And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:17, 18)

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

It was no mere angel that cast Satan out of heaven! He was cast out by the “power of his Christ.”

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10)

IV. “One of the Princes”

Mrs. MacGregor's argumentation on Daniel 10:13 may sound somewhat convincing if the words are taken completely out of their context. A text out of its context is only a pretext. Will her statement stand in the light of its context?

In Daniel, chapters 8 – 10 we definitely have more than one prince
The prince of the kingdoms of Persia. (Daniel 10:13, 20)
The prince of the host. (Daniel 8:11)
The Prince of princes. (Daniel 8:25)
Messiah the Prince (Daniel 9:25)
Michael your Prince. (Daniel 10:21)

Daniel, in the context of these verses says that Michael is “one of the chief princes.: Obviously he is referring to the princes that the passage is talking about. Mrs MacGregor declares that Jesus is not “one of the chief princes mentioned in Daniel chapters 8 – 11. In that case He is not “Messiah the Prince,” (Daniel 9:25) nor is He “The Prince of princes” (Daniel 8:25).

More About Princes: That Christ is called a “Prince” is evident.

1. Jesus is called a prince.

A. The Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6)
B. The Prince of princes. (Daniel 8:25)
C. Messiah the Prince. (Daniel 9:25)
D. Prince of life. (Acts 3:15)
E. Prince and Saviour. (Acts 5:31)
F. Prince of the kings of the earth. Revelation 1:5)

2. He is not the only prince in the Bible.

A. Jacob was called a prince. (Genesis 23:6)
B. David was called a prince. (Ezekiel 34:24)
C. Satan was called the prince of this world. (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11)
D. Satan referred to as “The prince of the power of the air,” (Ephesians 2:2)

Christ is a Prince, but there are other princes. To say that Christ is not one of anything, is not accurate. He is one of the trinity. The fact that there are other princes, calling Him one of them does not reduce Him to the same level as the others.

When angels worship Christ who is the Chief Messenger, the Prince of the angelic host, they are not worshipping another angel, but rather the Creator of angels.

V. Did Michael Rebuke Satan? One of the identifying marks of a cult is that they misquote Scripture. Lorri MacGregor states, “In Jude 9 where we find that Michael the Archangel did not dare rebuke Satan.” (Seventh-day Adventism Another Gospel? p.2) Many of her readers may not take the time to look up the passage, thus being misled by what she is saying. The text says that “he durst not bring against him a railing accusation.”

“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but saith, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 9)

Satan is the “accuser of our brethren.” (Revelation 12:10) Because of his character, Christ does not deal in railing accusations. However He did rebuke Satan! The very next phrase says “but said, the Lord rebuke thee.”

Apart from Jude's account, the only scriptural reference to the burial of Moses is Deut. 34:5, 6, where it is recorded that the Lord buried His faithful servant and that his grave was not known to men. Jude now reveals that the dead body was the subject of dispute between Christ and Satan. It is evident that the Lord triumphed in His contest with the devil and raised Moses from his grave, making him the first known subject of Christ's resurrecting power. (Matthew 17:3). Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration.

Conclusion: A superficial study of Michael the Archangel, tainted with pagan ideas about the hierarchy of angels, might imply that an archangel is a created being. A more thorough study of the subject reveals that:

1. The term “angel” means messenger, and does not always refer to created beings, but is sometimes used to refer to divinity.

2. Greek philosophy, as well as Moslem and Roman Catholic tradition teach that there is a class of angels called Archangels. There is no Biblical basis for this teaching. The Bible never refers to a plurality of archangels, but only to “the Archangel.”

3. The word Archangel is compounded from two words, archi, a prefix denoting “chief,” and aggelo, or “messenger.” He is the chief “Messenger,” linking heaven to earth.

4. It is the voice of the Archangel that calls the dead from their graves. It is the voice of Christ that awakens the dead. No created being has the power to challenge the power of death.

5. It is only Christ who has the power to wrest the body of Moses from the power of death making him the first known subject of His resurrecting power.

6. Only Christ could cast Satan out of heaven.

7. Michael your Prince in Daniel 10:21 refers to the same Person as Messiah the Prince (Daniel 9:25), The Prince of princes (Daniel 8:25), The Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6), The Prince of life (Acts 3:15), the Prince and Saviour (Acts 5:31), and the Prince of the kings of the earth. (Revelation 1:5)

October 12, 2010 at 5:46 am#219611

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2010,02:07)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 10 2010,06:49)

WJ, Id like to apologise to you for argueing like I did in your thread.

JA, I'm sorry.

Shimmer

Thanks!

My computer has a virus and I may not be posting much for a couple days.

Hi WJ,

Does Shimmer and LU worship the same Jesus as you?
You have said that others don't, so tell me about them?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 12, 2010 at 11:45 pm#219678

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2010,21:06)

Hi JA,

Your logic is flawed.

JA:

Quote

Mike,
Why would someone compare bananas with pears and say, 'With which pear did he ever make banana dacaree out of'?

JA:

Quote

Therefore if you then say that Jesus was NOT Angel, then in what was Jesus before he became man?

JA:

Quote

Mike, you would need to invent a new species, because Scriptures does not describe any other species in Heaven other than God and Angels.

JA:

Quote

Perhaps you are hung up on the word 'Angel'…you don't want to think of Jesus as 'an Angel'.

JA:

Quote

Your debate with WJ over this issue is like two children arguing over 'is water wet?'

JA:

Quote

Mike, let me ask you something.
When you read what JustAskin writes, do you learn anything? Or do you just look for things to dispute and refute?

peace and love,
mike

Well put Mike! Kuddos on just laying it out there

October 13, 2010 at 12:17 am#219684

Blocked

Thanks Kathi!

October 13, 2010 at 4:44 am#219725

SimplyForgiven

Participant

Quote

Mike, is not found in wetNanny because every 'truth' you use from wetNanny someone can use that same wetNanny 'truth' to induce, dispute, and refute, your argument.
Every external reference you use, has equally been used against you. You are just going round in circles with the same arguments with the likes of WJ and SF.
You seem tireless in your pursuit of tiresome arguments.

You exposed my next tactics………..
Thanks for nothing…………. (crys)

October 13, 2010 at 4:52 am#219726

SimplyForgiven

Participant

To All:
Since everyone has been paying alot of attention to this thread, I just wanted to say that i havent paid attention
to any long posts that were directed towards me, i havent had the “Will” (Whether influenced or free or whatever its called-Gene)
To Respond, Recently one of my family members past away and I havent really found the “flame” to respond.

Anyways back to the thread I still have been trying to catch up and i have read the last ten pages from where i left off.
My goodness guys what is UP? What is going on in here? I see WJ and Mike handicapp/ignoring JA matches and a catfight between , and than Bing BAM bOOm. tears, anger, and nonesense.
Come on guys get it togethor, we are all guilty of this when emotions get hot, but whooshh it sure is getting hot in here.
Ya need to chillax, take a chill pill, pull out them sheets and take a rest.

October 13, 2010 at 2:53 pm#219774

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 12 2010,23:52)

Hey Dennison

Sorry to hear about your loved one.

October 13, 2010 at 4:20 pm#219779

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2010,23:18)

I asked:

Quote

Do you agree with NETNotes on this one? Do you agree that Ezekiel 34:24 is a Messianic prophecy that clearly lists God's SERVANT Jesus as merely a “prince” in contrast to “God Himself”?

You answered:

Quote

Yes mike!

Very good Keith…….we are slowly making progress.

Mike

Not so fast!

The scriptures say he is both King and Prince. He (Jesus) is King of Kings and Lord of Lords over everything in heaven and in earth and under the earth, a divine title given to YHWH alone. Not only that he says all things are his and all authority and power is given to him.

Once again, Jesus has taken on the likeness of sinful flesh and is found in fashion as a man. He took on the role of servant to his Father but that has nothing to do with his nature being God as the Father is God, no more than you being less human than the President of the USA who has authority over you. So your point is a moot point.

October 13, 2010 at 4:29 pm#219781