Does god procreate?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Kathi

You didn't answer the question.

Is Jesus not the “True God”?

The scriptures clearly state there is only “One True God”, and they clearly state there is no other God but one. 1 Cor 8:4

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,15:14)

There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him.

This is just a play on words based on the ambiguous translation of one verse, John 1:18. Remember John didn't say the “begotten God” was with God in John 1:1 did he?

Can you show us one other scripture where the Prophets or Apostles of the OT and NT used the terms “Unbegtton God” and “Begotten God”?

There is “Only One True God” and all others are false.

WJ

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,01:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 26 2010,14:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,14:37) Keith, That is what we are trying to tell you.  The Father is the one true God. So Jesus is not the “True God”? WJ   Keith, Try to grasp this…Jesus is not the true UNbegotten God but He is the true Begotten God.  No other God is like the unbegotten God, not even Jesus…however, Jesus is the God from/of the UNbegotten God…God of (from) God, Light of (from) Light, very God of (from) very God.  Begotten not made…before the ages. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him.  The Son is not another UNbegotten God but that doesn't mean that He isn't the only TRUE begotten God.

LU,
Than what your saying almost sounds the same, but has small differences to what i believe.

I believe that Jesus is a Role of God in our lives.
in other words the Begotten role, (not created) that somone chooses to take within a life.

God choosing to be son of God as a role. limited to time and space, and knowledge yet is God working within our world.

[SimplyForgiven]

Here is what is going to help with this discussion abuot 43:10
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEX
9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

  10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

  11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

  12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

  13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

  14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

  15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

  16Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;

According to the context, God is talking about being the Only God, not an idol, not a Strange God, but the only.
God made a Claim about being the only one,
and to prove his claim, he used his “Witnesses” as his proof.
and asked any others to refute to bring out their witnesses.
Testimony was the greatest proof of the existance of God.
an Honest Testimony was always the best proof

Just to stir the pot:  Notice how it also says that God is the only savior! so is Jesus not a saviour, is Jesus not a king?

[Baker]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,08:04)

Here is what is going to help with this discussion about 43:10 CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEX 9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.   10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.   11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.   12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.   13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?   14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldean's, whose cry is in the ships.   15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.   16Thus saith the LORD, which maker a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; According to the context, God is talking about being the Only God, not an idol, not a Strange God, but the only.   God made a Claim about being the only one, and to prove his claim, he used his “Witnesses” as his proof. and asked any others to refute to bring out their witnesses. Testimony was the greatest proof of the existence of God. an Honest Testimony was always the best proof Just to stir the pot:  Notice how it also says that God is the only savior! so is Jesus not a saviour, is Jesus not a king?

I just did a Post about the same Scripture about who Jesus The Word of God is.  He is called God in both John 1:1-14 and Hebrew 1:8-9.  However Jesus The Word of God is the Mighty God, while Jehovah God is the Almighty God, there is the difference…….. Jesus never claimed to be like the Almighty God.
Yet by His Father in Hebrew, He is called God.  When we understand what the word God is, we can see that it is a title, many in Ancient times were called God's…… However The Word of God is also KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS IN Rev. 19:13-16…..He The Word of God came forth from His Father Jehovah God, and is not created out of the dust of the earth, like we are….Therefore He is in a sense not like us, yet in Human form, when He emptied Himself to become like us.  Phil. 2:5 What a great and loving Father Jehovah God we have, to send His only begotten Son into the world to die for us, so we can live….We should thank Him every day for that act of Love……Peace Irene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 27 2010,02:59)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,08:04) Here is what is going to help with this discussion about 43:10 CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEX 9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.   10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.   11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.   12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.   13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?   14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldean's, whose cry is in the ships.   15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.   16Thus saith the LORD, which maker a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; According to the context, God is talking about being the Only God, not an idol, not a Strange God, but the only.   God made a Claim about being the only one, and to prove his claim, he used his “Witnesses” as his proof. and asked any others to refute to bring out their witnesses. Testimony was the greatest proof of the existence of God. an Honest Testimony was always the best proof Just to stir the pot:  Notice how it also says that God is the only savior! so is Jesus not a saviour, is Jesus not a king? I just did a Post about the same Scripture about who Jesus The Word of God is.  He is called God in both John 1:1-14 and Hebrew 1:8-9.  However Jesus The Word of God is the Mighty God, while Jehovah God is the Almighty God, there is the difference…….. Jesus never claimed to be like the Almighty God. Yet by His Father in Hebrew, He is called God.  When we understand what the word God is, we can see that it is a title, many in Ancient times were called God's…… However The Word of God is also KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS IN Rev. 19:13-16…..He The Word of God came forth from His Father Jehovah God, and is not created out of the dust of the earth, like we are….Therefore He is in a sense not like us, yet in Human form, when He emptied Himself to become like us.  Phil. 2:5 What a great and loving Father Jehovah God we have, to send His only begotten Son into the world to die for us, so we can live….We should thank Him every day for that act of Love……Peace Irene

Irene,
i dont know if you responded to my other responses that i have again and again have asked you.
I tend to lose many thread because there are so many.

But i dont get it. You believe in TWO Gods, one almighty and one mighty?

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The Lord God is indeed Echad

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 26 2010,15:41)

Kathi You didn't answer the question. Is Jesus not the “True God”? The scriptures clearly state there is only “One True God”, and they clearly state there is no other God but one. 1 Cor 8:4 Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,15:14) There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him. This is just a play on words based on the ambiguous translation of one verse, John 1:18. Remember John didn't say the “begotten God” was with God in John 1:1 did he? Can you show us one other scripture where the Prophets or Apostles of the OT and NT used the terms “Unbegtton God” and “Begotten God”? There is “Only One True God” and all others are false. WJ

Keith,
Continue reading in 1 Corinthians 8 and you will have your answer.

8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. 5

The one true God is the Father who is together with the one Lord Jesus Christ. All others are not true.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,19:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 26 2010,15:41) Kathi You didn't answer the question. Is Jesus not the “True God”? The scriptures clearly state there is only “One True God”, and they clearly state there is no other God but one. 1 Cor 8:4 Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,15:14) There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him. This is just a play on words based on the ambiguous translation of one verse, John 1:18. Remember John didn't say the “begotten God” was with God in John 1:1 did he? Can you show us one other scripture where the Prophets or Apostles of the OT and NT used the terms “Unbegtton God” and “Begotten God”? There is “Only One True God” and all others are false. WJ Keith, Continue reading in 1 Corinthians 8 and you will have your answer. 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. 5 The one true God is the Father who is together with the one Lord Jesus Christ.  All others are not true.

Kathi

Still can't give a straight answer huh?

If there is NO GOD BUT ONE, and the Father is the “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” then how is Jesus a True God?

How is there “ANOTHER GOD” with the Father if the Father said there is no God beside him?

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Here is my answer again written with other words so that maybe what is keeping you from seeing my answer might just be the way that I phrase it.

There is only one true God…the Father.
The Father is together with His Son, the only begotten God…and His Spirit, the Spirit of the Father. The Son and the Spirit are as inseparable from Him (the Father) as His own word and wisdom and were always a part of Him, not as separate persons but as the pre-begotten Son and Spirit. At some point before time, when the Father wanted to create and then manifest His character to His creation, He begat the Son who was the mirror image of Him by character and nature and gave Him all things that He Himself had, including might and power and wisdom. He made a covenant with His Son to redeem mankind should they choose to disobey Him.

Because mankind choose to disobey God, the only begotten God gave up whatever was necessary, was sent by His Father and became man through a supernatural process and was born from a virgin. This was Jesus…the only TRUE begotten God dwelling with us in flesh, manifesting His Father's nature and character, obeying His Father in all ways even to the death of the cross. He then was raised on the third day and became our mediator between His Father and mankind.

When you read this verse, picture the Father together with His Son and His Spirit as much a part of Him as His own wisdom and word is.
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

This view is different than the current trinitarian view of three Gods in one triune being. A triune God is not what I see represented in scripture. In scripture I see plainly that the one true God is the Father who has a Son and a Spirit. The Son wasn't always begotten and the Spirit of the Father wasn't always proceeding from the Father. The Son is a person after His begetting, before His begetting He was a pre-person whatever that would be. The Spirit isn't a person but the personal Spirit of God, not as a force.

[Lightenup]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 26 2010,15:57)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,01:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 26 2010,14:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,14:37) Keith, That is what we are trying to tell you.  The Father is the one true God. So Jesus is not the “True God”? WJ   Keith, Try to grasp this…Jesus is not the true UNbegotten God but He is the true Begotten God.  No other God is like the unbegotten God, not even Jesus…however, Jesus is the God from/of the UNbegotten God…God of (from) God, Light of (from) Light, very God of (from) very God.  Begotten not made…before the ages. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him.  The Son is not another UNbegotten God but that doesn't mean that He isn't the only TRUE begotten God. LU, Than what your saying almost sounds the same, but has small differences to what i believe. I believe that Jesus is a Role of God in our lives. in other words the Begotten role, (not created) that somone chooses to take within a life. God choosing to be son of God as a role.  limited to time and space, and knowledge yet is God working within our world.

Hi Dennison,
Thanks for expressing your view. I pray that we get to unity in truth. Jesus is a Son not a role of the Father. See the post that I just made to Keith.

[Baker]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:24)

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 27 2010,02:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,08:04) Here is what is going to help with this discussion about 43:10 CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEX 9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.   10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.   11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.   12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.   13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?   14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldean's, whose cry is in the ships.   15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.   16Thus saith the LORD, which maker a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; According to the context, God is talking about being the Only God, not an idol, not a Strange God, but the only.   God made a Claim about being the only one, and to prove his claim, he used his “Witnesses” as his proof. and asked any others to refute to bring out their witnesses. Testimony was the greatest proof of the existence of God. an Honest Testimony was always the best proof Just to stir the pot:  Notice how it also says that God is the only savior! so is Jesus not a saviour, is Jesus not a king? I just did a Post about the same Scripture about who Jesus The Word of God is.  He is called God in both John 1:1-14 and Hebrew 1:8-9.  However Jesus The Word of God is the Mighty God, while Jehovah God is the Almighty God, there is the difference…….. Jesus never claimed to be like the Almighty God. Yet by His Father in Hebrew, He is called God.  When we understand what the word God is, we can see that it is a title, many in Ancient times were called God's…… However The Word of God is also KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS IN Rev. 19:13-16…..He The Word of God came forth from His Father Jehovah God, and is not created out of the dust of the earth, like we are….Therefore He is in a sense not like us, yet in Human form, when He emptied Himself to become like us.  Phil. 2:5 What a great and loving Father Jehovah God we have, to send His only begotten Son into the world to die for us, so we can live….We should thank Him every day for that act of Love……Peace Irene Irene, i dont know if you responded to my other responses that i have again and again have asked you. I tend to lose many thread because there are so many. But i dont get it. You believe in TWO Gods, one almighty and one mighty? Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, The Lord God is indeed Echad

Yes, there is only one LORD, however Jesus is also called Lord. I gave you two Scriptures that were Jehovah God calls Jesus God….. It is not that He is the Almighty, I already said that….Why can't you see that the word God is only a title? Even Satan is called God of this world….Does that make Him the Jehovah God, of course not….
Lets look at Ephesians 4:5 one God AND FATHER OF ALL.
Don't line up Scripture the wrong way, you will get in trouble every time….it also says in verse 4 that there is only one Spirit…. Does that mean that there is only one Spirit??? of course not……Even Jehovah God has more then one Spirit….so sometimes we really have to watch what exactly Scriptures are telling us….Also watch out that when you mean Jehovah God please make sure you use all capital letters….look at some Scriptures in the Old Test and NT for that matter.. Deut. 4:35, Deut. 6:4 and 1 Corinth.8:4 just to name a few. In all of these LORD is spelled in all capital letters. And there are more of them…
I hope I answered all of your questions….
Peace Irene.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,21:55)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 26 2010,15:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,01:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 26 2010,14:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,14:37) Keith, That is what we are trying to tell you.  The Father is the one true God. So Jesus is not the “True God”? WJ   Keith, Try to grasp this…Jesus is not the true UNbegotten God but He is the true Begotten God.  No other God is like the unbegotten God, not even Jesus…however, Jesus is the God from/of the UNbegotten God…God of (from) God, Light of (from) Light, very God of (from) very God.  Begotten not made…before the ages. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him.  The Son is not another UNbegotten God but that doesn't mean that He isn't the only TRUE begotten God. LU, Than what your saying almost sounds the same, but has small differences to what i believe. I believe that Jesus is a Role of God in our lives. in other words the Begotten role, (not created) that somone chooses to take within a life. God choosing to be son of God as a role.  limited to time and space, and knowledge yet is God working within our world. Hi Dennison, Thanks for expressing your view.  I pray that we get to unity in truth.  Jesus is a Son not a role of the Father.  See the post that I just made to Keith.

Lu,
I saw your post,
WE basically believe in the same thing.
I just explain it differently. When is say role its the same explainantion of what you explain Jesus to be.
the Role of God the father being Revealed through the Son.
The Son is the only way to know God the Father.
And through that role as the Son of God, who manifested all his character and power and whatnot.
That all FULLNESS may dwell in him.

We basically agree.

The only part i disagree with is when you say the Son was created. The Son of Man/Son of God was not nessary until sin was committed. before such a time, the Son was simply the “Word”.

AGain, maybe im not explaining my self correctly, but we basically agree believe it or not.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 27 2010,23:54)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:24) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 27 2010,02:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,08:04) Here is what is going to help with this discussion about 43:10 CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEX 9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.   10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.   11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.   12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.   13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?   14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldean's, whose cry is in the ships.   15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.   16Thus saith the LORD, which maker a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; According to the context, God is talking about being the Only God, not an idol, not a Strange God, but the only.   God made a Claim about being the only one, and to prove his claim, he used his “Witnesses” as his proof. and asked any others to refute to bring out their witnesses. Testimony was the greatest proof of the existence of God. an Honest Testimony was always the best proof Just to stir the pot:  Notice how it also says that God is the only savior! so is Jesus not a saviour, is Jesus not a king? I just did a Post about the same Scripture about who Jesus The Word of God is.  He is called God in both John 1:1-14 and Hebrew 1:8-9.  However Jesus The Word of God is the Mighty God, while Jehovah God is the Almighty God, there is the difference…….. Jesus never claimed to be like the Almighty God. Yet by His Father in Hebrew, He is called God.  When we understand what the word God is, we can see that it is a title, many in Ancient times were called God's…… However The Word of God is also KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS IN Rev. 19:13-16…..He The Word of God came forth from His Father Jehovah God, and is not created out of the dust of the earth, like we are….Therefore He is in a sense not like us, yet in Human form, when He emptied Himself to become like us.  Phil. 2:5 What a great and loving Father Jehovah God we have, to send His only begotten Son into the world to die for us, so we can live….We should thank Him every day for that act of Love……Peace Irene Irene, i dont know if you responded to my other responses that i have again and again have asked you. I tend to lose many thread because there are so many. But i dont get it. You believe in TWO Gods, one almighty and one mighty? Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, The Lord God is indeed Echad Yes, there is only one LORD, however Jesus is also called Lord.  I gave you two Scriptures that were  Jehovah God calls Jesus God….. It is not that He is the Almighty, I already said that….Why can't you see that the word God is only a title? Even Satan is called God of this world….Does that make Him the Jehovah God, of course not…. Lets look at Ephesians 4:5 one God AND FATHER OF ALL. Don't line up Scripture the wrong way, you will get in trouble every time….it also says in verse 4 that there is only one Spirit…. Does that mean that there is only one Spirit??? of course not……Even Jehovah God has more then one Spirit….so sometimes we really have to watch what exactly Scriptures are telling us….Also watch out that when you mean Jehovah God please make sure you use all capital letters….look at some Scriptures in the Old Test and NT for that matter.. Deut. 4:35, Deut. 6:4 and 1 Corinth.8:4  just to name a few.  In all of these LORD is spelled in all capital letters.  And there are more of them… I hope I answered all of your questions…. Peace Irene.

Irene,
I believe i was one of the first to state MONTHS ago that God is only a title. if not the first, than just one of the few.

Here is my problem, you equating Satan with Jesus. and your saying both are callled God but are not God.
that still defeats your purpose of why there should be ANY other God but THE ONLY GOD.

It Goes back to the question, What is the Son of God to you, another God SEPERATE from the LORD God?
WE know that Satan is not a God but has territory as a God to the Godless.

[Lightenup]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,14:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,21:55) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 26 2010,15:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,01:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 26 2010,14:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,14:37) Keith, That is what we are trying to tell you.  The Father is the one true God. So Jesus is not the “True God”? WJ   Keith, Try to grasp this…Jesus is not the true UNbegotten God but He is the true Begotten God.  No other God is like the unbegotten God, not even Jesus…however, Jesus is the God from/of the UNbegotten God…God of (from) God, Light of (from) Light, very God of (from) very God.  Begotten not made…before the ages. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him.  The Son is not another UNbegotten God but that doesn't mean that He isn't the only TRUE begotten God. LU, Than what your saying almost sounds the same, but has small differences to what i believe. I believe that Jesus is a Role of God in our lives. in other words the Begotten role, (not created) that somone chooses to take within a life. God choosing to be son of God as a role.  limited to time and space, and knowledge yet is God working within our world. Hi Dennison, Thanks for expressing your view.  I pray that we get to unity in truth.  Jesus is a Son not a role of the Father.  See the post that I just made to Keith. Lu, I saw your post, WE basically believe in the same thing. I just explain it differently.  When is say role its the same explainantion of what you explain Jesus to be.   the Role of God the father being Revealed through the Son. The Son is the only way to know God the Father. And through that role as the Son of God, who manifested all his character and power and whatnot. That all FULLNESS may dwell in him. We basically agree. The only part i disagree with is when you say the Son was created.   The Son of Man/Son of God was not nessary until sin was committed. before such a time, the Son was simply the “Word”. AGain, maybe im not explaining my self correctly, but we basically agree believe it or not.

Hi Dennison,
I am wondering where you have gotten the idea that I think the Son was created.

There is a huge difference between the Son being pro-created by the Father and created by the Father.

I suggest that He was pro-created because the result of His being begotten from a substance that was within the Father at some point before time, was begotten from the Father as a true offspring, being the exact representation of the nature of the one that beget Him. God beget God…God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God…begotten, not made.

I'm glad that we are working towards unity!

[Baker]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,06:58)

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 27 2010,23:54) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:24) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 27 2010,02:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,08:04) Here is what is going to help with this discussion about 43:10 CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEX 9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.   10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.   11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.   12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.   13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?   14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldean's, whose cry is in the ships.   15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.   16Thus saith the LORD, which maker a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; According to the context, God is talking about being the Only God, not an idol, not a Strange God, but the only.   God made a Claim about being the only one, and to prove his claim, he used his “Witnesses” as his proof. and asked any others to refute to bring out their witnesses. Testimony was the greatest proof of the existence of God. an Honest Testimony was always the best proof Just to stir the pot:  Notice how it also says that God is the only savior! so is Jesus not a saviour, is Jesus not a king? I just did a Post about the same Scripture about who Jesus The Word of God is.  He is called God in both John 1:1-14 and Hebrew 1:8-9.  However Jesus The Word of God is the Mighty God, while Jehovah God is the Almighty God, there is the difference…….. Jesus never claimed to be like the Almighty God. Yet by His Father in Hebrew, He is called God.  When we understand what the word God is, we can see that it is a title, many in Ancient times were called God's…… However The Word of God is also KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS IN Rev. 19:13-16…..He The Word of God came forth from His Father Jehovah God, and is not created out of the dust of the earth, like we are….Therefore He is in a sense not like us, yet in Human form, when He emptied Himself to become like us.  Phil. 2:5 What a great and loving Father Jehovah God we have, to send His only begotten Son into the world to die for us, so we can live….We should thank Him every day for that act of Love……Peace Irene Irene, i dont know if you responded to my other responses that i have again and again have asked you. I tend to lose many thread because there are so many. But i dont get it. You believe in TWO Gods, one almighty and one mighty? Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, The Lord God is indeed Echad Yes, there is only one LORD, however Jesus is also called Lord.  I gave you two Scriptures that were  Jehovah God calls Jesus God….. It is not that He is the Almighty, I already said that….Why can't you see that the word God is only a title? Even Satan is called God of this world….Does that make Him the Jehovah God, of course not…. Lets look at Ephesians 4:5 one God AND FATHER OF ALL. Don't line up Scripture the wrong way, you will get in trouble every time….it also says in verse 4 that there is only one Spirit…. Does that mean that there is only one Spirit??? of course not……Even Jehovah God has more then one Spirit….so sometimes we really have to watch what exactly Scriptures are telling us….Also watch out that when you mean Jehovah God please make sure you use all capital letters….look at some Scriptures in the Old Test and NT for that matter.. Deut. 4:35, Deut. 6:4 and 1 Corinth.8:4  just to name a few.  In all of these LORD is spelled in all capital letters.  And there are more of them… I hope I answered all of your questions…. Peace Irene. Irene, I believe i was one of the first to state MONTHS ago that God is only a title. if not the first, than just one of the few. Here is my problem, you equating Satan with Jesus. and your saying both are callled God but are not God. that still defeats your purpose of why there should be ANY other God but THE ONLY GOD. It Goes back to the question, What is the Son of God to you, another God SEPERATE from the LORD God?   WE know that Satan is not a God but has territory as a God to the Godless.

You are misunderstanding me when I say that Satan also was called God. That does not mean that I am comparing Satan to Jesus, just that all are called God. Jesus is the Mighty God, Satan is not….. When it comes to if Jesus was created. He was. Scriptures in Col. 1:15 He is the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14 ….. the beginning of the creation of God….You also think because they are called God, that will make them God and that is not so….They do have other names….I think sometimes it is hard to explain to another what exactly one means…….
Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,06:58)

Here is my problem, you equating Satan with Jesus. and your saying both are callled God but are not God. that still defeats your purpose of why there should be ANY other God but THE ONLY GOD. It Goes back to the question, What is the Son of God to you, another God SEPERATE from the LORD God?   WE know that Satan is not a God but has territory as a God to the Godless.

Hello Everyone,

What if we just used the word “leader” instead of the word “god”?

I think that would solve alot of problems.  Jesus is a wonderful leader, but he is in no way THE LEADER.

Satan is a leader in his own right, and has many followers – including a third of the angels THE LEADER created – but Satan is not THE LEADER.

So in effect Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my leader!”  Does this mean Thomas thought that Jesus was THE LEADER?  I doubt it.  Would Jesus and John have both let it go if that was the case?  Of course not, because both of them taught that Jesus was the Son of THE LEADER, not THE LEADER Himself.

Jesus, while being a leader himself, PRAYED to THE LEADER.  And this leader called Jesus taught us that our LEADER was also his LEADER.  He also said that everlasting life was the taking in of knowledge of the Father, who is THE ONLY TRUE LEADER, and that LEADER's Son, whom the LEADER had sent into the world to be the instrument through whom that LEADER would save mankind.

John 1:1 says that in the beginning, the Word was with THE LEADER, and was a leader himself.

I don't think certain ones of us are as confused about the Biblical use of the term “god” as they pretend to be.  I think most of us understand it fully well, but some must resort to these “god-games” to further their doctrine.

Using the word “leader” in place of every instance of the word “god” in the Bible, I wonder if anyone could show me any scriptures that imply that the leader Jesus was in fact the same being as THE LEADER.

This would also clear up the “real leader/false leader” stuff. Satan is most definitely a REAL leader. He exists, he has followers, so he is a real leader. But he is not the “only true LEADER”…….the One who is the LEADER above all other leaders…….the One to whom all other leaders must eventually answer.

And by using the word “leader”, I would have no problem whatsoever in proclaiming that Jesus was “my leader”.  I would still understand that the leader Jesus answers to a higher LEADER, as do we all.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

I took a little break for a while…………did anyone ever answer the simple question of why God cannot procreate a child unto Himself?  Have we decided that procreating is the one impossible thing for the God for Whom “ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE”?

Has anyone yet shown a reason that the Hebrew and Greek words that actually do mean a literal begetting in most cases should be taken figuratively in the case of Jesus?

And has anyone shown how, if Is 43:10 should be taken to mean “no gods were begotten after me”, then from the trinitarian/JA/SF point of view, Jesus who is “God”, could have been begotten when he was raised…………AFTER Jehovah said those words in Is 43:10?

mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2010,21:47)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,06:58) Here is my problem, you equating Satan with Jesus. and your saying both are callled God but are not God. that still defeats your purpose of why there should be ANY other God but THE ONLY GOD. It Goes back to the question, What is the Son of God to you, another God SEPERATE from the LORD God?   WE know that Satan is not a God but has territory as a God to the Godless. Hello Everyone, What if we just used the word “leader” instead of the word “god”? I think that would solve alot of problems.  Jesus is a wonderful leader, but he is in no way THE LEADER. Satan is a leader in his own right, and has many followers – including a third of the angels THE LEADER created – but Satan is not THE LEADER. So in effect Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my leader!”  Does this mean Thomas thought that Jesus was THE LEADER?  I doubt it.  Would Jesus and John have both let it go if that was the case?  Of course not, because both of them taught that Jesus was the Son of THE LEADER, not THE LEADER Himself. Jesus, while being a leader himself, PRAYED to THE LEADER.  And this leader called Jesus taught us that our LEADER was also his LEADER.  He also said that everlasting life was the taking in of knowledge of the Father, who is THE ONLY TRUE LEADER, and that LEADER's Son, whom the LEADER had sent into the world to be the instrument through whom that LEADER would save mankind. John 1:1 says that in the beginning, the Word was with THE LEADER, and was a leader himself. I don't think certain ones of us are as confused about the Biblical use of the term “god” as they pretend to be.  I think most of us understand it fully well, but some must resort to these “god-games” to further their doctrine. Using the word “leader” in place of every instance of the word “god” in the Bible, I wonder if anyone could show me any scriptures that imply that the leader Jesus was in fact the same being as THE LEADER. This would also clear up the “real leader/false leader” stuff.  Satan is most definitely a REAL leader.  He exists, he has followers, so he is a real leader.  But he is not the “only true LEADER”…….the One who is the LEADER above all other leaders…….the One to whom all other leaders must eventually answer.   And by using the word “leader”, I would have no problem whatsoever in proclaiming that Jesus was “my leader”.  I would still understand that the leader Jesus answers to a higher LEADER, as do we all. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,
I hope you had a nice break.

So you want to substitute leader for god/God…hmmmm…then we would have unbegotten Leader and begotten Leader. LOL!

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kathi,

Yes, while scripture doesn't say “unbegotten Leader”, it does make it clear that Jehovah had no beginning and will have no end.

And Jesus is definitely called “the only begotten 'leader'”, so you are right.

And we also know that Satan is a created “leader”. Many leaders, but only one LEADER.

And while we are taught to follow both the unbegotten and begotten leaders, we are only told to worship the unbegotten One. The begotten one himself tells us that.

I pray that you jump that hurdle soon.

mike

[Lightenup]

Hi Mike,
Justin Martyr isn't going to jump the hurdle either:

“Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.”

from: from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xiii.html

Don't you think that is interesting?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 30 2010,01:57)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,14:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,21:55) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 26 2010,15:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,01:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 26 2010,14:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,14:37) Keith, That is what we are trying to tell you.  The Father is the one true God. So Jesus is not the “True God”? WJ   Keith, Try to grasp this…Jesus is not the true UNbegotten God but He is the true Begotten God.  No other God is like the unbegotten God, not even Jesus…however, Jesus is the God from/of the UNbegotten God…God of (from) God, Light of (from) Light, very God of (from) very God.  Begotten not made…before the ages. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten, not formed, not begotten, not made…and that is the Father.  That ONE TRUE GOD that is UNbegotten begat a Son and that Son is referred to as God by His God, because that which He begat is like Him in NATURE and is His offspring and He has given all things to Him.  The Son is not another UNbegotten God but that doesn't mean that He isn't the only TRUE begotten God. LU, Than what your saying almost sounds the same, but has small differences to what i believe. I believe that Jesus is a Role of God in our lives. in other words the Begotten role, (not created) that somone chooses to take within a life. God choosing to be son of God as a role.  limited to time and space, and knowledge yet is God working within our world. Hi Dennison, Thanks for expressing your view.  I pray that we get to unity in truth.  Jesus is a Son not a role of the Father.  See the post that I just made to Keith. Lu, I saw your post, WE basically believe in the same thing. I just explain it differently.  When is say role its the same explainantion of what you explain Jesus to be.   the Role of God the father being Revealed through the Son. The Son is the only way to know God the Father. And through that role as the Son of God, who manifested all his character and power and whatnot. That all FULLNESS may dwell in him. We basically agree. The only part i disagree with is when you say the Son was created.   The Son of Man/Son of God was not nessary until sin was committed. before such a time, the Son was simply the “Word”. AGain, maybe im not explaining my self correctly, but we basically agree believe it or not. Hi Dennison, I am wondering where you have gotten the idea that I think the Son was created.   There is a huge difference between the Son being pro-created by the Father and created by the Father.   I suggest that He was pro-created because the result of His being begotten from a substance that was within the Father at some point before time, was begotten from the Father as a true offspring, being the exact representation of the nature of the one that beget Him.  God beget God…God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God…begotten, not made. I'm glad that we are working towards unity!

Lu,
I think we you say Procreated this is what i think,
Procreated-“to produce; bring into being.”
or an other words “offspring” of a sort.
Something part of God.

But thats not the way i see it. Where i would agree that Jesus is not Gods totality at all.

But i believe in a Totality of God thats unknowable, thats power is so vast its impossible to know all of God. Even the Cheribums in front of his throne hides there faces and what not in the presence of God.

And i compare it to our daily lives. I see Jesus as a Role/Perception

did you know, that knowing every single thing about me can kill you as well. ITs to much information to understand, instead you have perfecption or experiences with me.

At times i can act like a Jerk which is a perception or a part of who i REALLY am.

Where like you said, i agree Jesus is a Part of one LORD ECHAD.
but not in that way.

Jesus is the closet thing we have to understand God.
for the Son reveals the Father, and the Son is the only way to the Father.

So in that sense I see Jesus as a Role of not the Totality of God, but part of God acting in our world.

Which is basically the same thing your saying,
The diffrences is I THINK your saying that lets say that God had an arm and he just sent that arm to the world and what not.
Something part of God.

I see Jesus as God being revealed through him.
Just as you have your first impression of who i am when we first meet, you cant know me based on that first impression, you have to GET to know me, to understand me ALL of me.

This brings about a relationship.

Usually when i talk about it, it makes more sense, I dont know if typing it out maybe distorted what im trying to say. because Even though i know what im saying, doesnt mean that when you read this, that your going to understand, because your interpreting what im writing down, instaed of listening to what im saying with my voice, and you can here my expression and feel more of what i mean to say.

If anything im more of a public speaker than a writer.

But if it doesnt make sense ill try to explain better next time,

[Author]

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