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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,04:18) Hi JA, So you can't refute my understanding logically? Didn't think you could.
Btw, my understanding is confirmed by the early church fathers Eusebius and Ignatius. So “Yes”, others DO understand my “ideology” as scriptural…….even if it hasn't been shown to you yet.
Why don't you take a shot at SCRIPTURALLY refuting it, instead of the same lame “I'm right and you're wrong” comments you've been making for months with nothing to back them up?
mike
Hi Mike,Do you think JustAskin is going to unbeget you now?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo everyone and no one,
If a person becomes a Father when he 'acquires' a Son, then does it stand to reason that the Son did not 'exist' since the one acquiring him was not a Father to him who became the Son?
Of course, one can say that he who became the 'figurative Son' would have existed before being acquired by a figurative Father (See Philemon 1… Onesimus being figurtively acquired as Son by Paul, a figurative Father). So, Jesus existed before becoming 'Son of God' at his rising from the dead. He accomplished all that was set before him as his commission, faithfully and righteously, brought the testament of his Father to mankind and showed them the way, even unto death, holding to the belief that his Father would raise him again from the dead.
Notice that God was Jesus' Father before this begetting. This is a different 'Sonship' than the begetting.
Jesus was spiritually and fleshly pure but always called himself 'Son of Man'. Only when the Jews accused him of blasphemy did he reply, 'What of it if I say that I am the Son of God?' and then he went on to explain that others who walked in the ways of God were also called '[Sons of] God': Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, the prophets, David, Solomon (Name your favourites). So, again, if God Himself 'called them Gods, unto who the word of God came', what of it then, if he who brought the testament of God, is called 'Son of God'.
“Son” need not mean a literal offspring, it can mean, 'offspring' by itself, one comng from another, an ambassador held dearly by a ruler, a king. Therein lies a secret…Jesus was held dearly by God above all the 'others'( I keep asking, 'who are these others. No one answers me. Why?) and was thereby, Son to God, but in Heaven, so God gave him the prominence. And when the time came, Jesus was selected to the commission, being the only one found worthy for the commission. But he had to be Man to commit the commission…
So, all the others were also 'Sons' being formed from the Spirit of God.Spiritual Son
Figurative Son
Physical SonDo Spirits [re]produce physical? No! So how did God, a Spirit, reproduce, procreate, a 'physical' spirit Son?
Clearly, the analogy is wrong. It is the wrong analogy to say 'God Procreates'. Spirits do not 'procreate'.
Further, only God, YHVH, of all Spirits in the heavens, forms another Spirit, for Spirit is Life, and only from God does Life come.
Even Jesus, read carefully, Jesus 'gives life' does not mean he iterally gives 'a life' to them in the last day. It means he sustains the life of their Spirit, because their Spirit is already with God, their life is already with God. Those who are evil will 'Lose' their life…read that all again to see the reasoning: if the wicked are to 'lose' their life they must already have it in order to lose it. Then, the good, they will 'save' their life through Christ, Christ will 'maintain' their already existing life by the spirit.Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 27 2010,03:56) How many months have you been at your attempt to prove the unproveable and yet, not one other has upheld your claim. Does this not suggest something to you?
Hi JA,Do you remember posting the following about the word “DAY” in Micah 5:2?
JA:
Quote Mike, WJ, It is quite clear and obvious that 'days of Eternity' cannot possibly mean 'literal days'. It is phrasiology only for the understanding of 'lifespanned man'
Eternity Cannot count…there is no number big enough, divisisable, multiplyable, portionable, fractionisable, measurable…that can contain 'Eternity'.
Correct, or near correct translation, would be 'time'. 'Time' is linear period… 'Day' is singular object. A peroid of time constitutes the object day.
So, unless there were events that span a period of time which could then be called 'A day'…ha! See Genesis 1…, the word 'day' in Micah is wrongly translated.It was from page 37 of this thread. You agree that the word “DAY” in Micah 5:2 “cannot possibly mean 'literal days'”. But your conclusion is that the word “day” in Micah “is wrongly translated”. It is not only “translated” as “days” JA, it is actually written as “days” in the original Hebrew. And it was translated into the Greek language as “day” by the authors of the Septuagint.
So, here we are. The word “day” IS actually the Hebrew word used by the Hebrew author Micah, as inpired by God Himself. And I agree 100% with you that it “cannot possibly mean 'literal days'”, even though the word is “days”.
Now, tell me once again how the same exact Hebrew word “day” absolutely positively HAS to refer to a “literal day” in Psalm 2:7, since you agree it DOESN'T have to in Micah 5:2.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Sep. 27 2010,04:45) Do Spirits [re]produce physical? No! So how did God, a Spirit, reproduce, procreate, a 'physical' spirit Son? Clearly, the analogy is wrong. It is the wrong analogy to say 'God Procreates'. Spirits do not 'procreate'.
Of course spirits must be “physical” beings JA. Otherwise there would be no end to one angel and no beginning to another. They have to have spiritual “bodies”, just like Paul said Jesus now has. So why can one spiritual being not bring forth another spiritual being? How did the angels come to be if that is not possible?And I think you read too much into the word “procreate”, which was WJ's intention all along when he started this poll IMO. Here is the entire definition of “procreate” from Dictionary.com:
pro·cre·ate /ˈproʊkriˌeɪt/ Show Spelled
[proh-kree-eyt] Show IPA
verb, -at·ed, -at·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to beget or generate (offspring).
2. to produce; bring into being.
–verb (used without object)
3. to beget offspring.
4. to produce; bring into being.Did God beget Jesus as His offspring? Did God produce Jesus? Did God bring Jesus into being?
If any of these are “Yes”, then God DOES procreate JA.
Your statement that “spirits do not procreate” is incorrect for God is a spirit, and He brought everything there is into being.
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike,
It's interesting that my dictionary shows the word 'Procrustean' next to 'Procreation'.I think 'Procreation' is this instance has been 'procrusteaned', 'stretched so as to conform' with the subject in question…
What is the difference between 'Create' and 'ProCreate'?
And which, then, are we really talking about. No two words mean absolutely the same thing, so which word are we really talking about:
Create…to bring forth [first principle] from that which does not yet exist of the same kind.
ProCreate…to bring forth [second principal] from that which already exist of the same kind.Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 27 2010,14:43) Hi Mike,
It's interesting that my dictionary shows the word 'Procrustean' next to 'Procreation'.I think 'Procreation' is this instance has been 'procrusteaned', 'stretched so as to conform' with the subject in question…
What is the difference between 'Create' and 'ProCreate'?
And which, then, are we really talking about. No two words mean absolutely the same thing, so which word are we really talking about:
Create…to bring forth [first principle] from that which does not yet exist of the same kind.
ProCreate…to bring forth [second principal] from that which already exist of the same kind.
hi Ja and Mikethe spirit of scriptures tells me that Christ (the word) was created ,reason for being created are ;
God is so powerful that anything he would create would be destroyed,and specifically men and his environment,
so God created the Word to allow him to create through him and for him a compagnon that s look more like him,and so this is why the 144000 are his bride ,who are from man stature have now becomes like Christ heavenly beings …
( the same way Adam felled in the garden after he gives a name to all things he did not see any like him ,so God made out of him Eve,and so it is with Jesus (THE WORD).)
Pierre
Ah Mike, just saw you comment claiming that I should use Scripture to refute your claims.
Mike, there are no Scripture proofs that you will accept to refute your claims otherwise you wouldn't still be trying to 'fute' your claim.
I didn't even realise that this 'begotten' was still going on…how long now?
Not only has no one been able to convince you that you are wrong, but You, also, cannot show any one that you are right.
Stalemate then, I think, an en-passe, Check but no Mate, Mexican Standoff, immoveable object meets irresistable subject.
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 22 2010,04:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,15:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,22:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,14:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,04:14) Mike When Jesus touched the lepers (leprousy was a type of sin) he did not get infected by it, instead the essence or substance of God left him and healed them just as it left him and healed the woman with the issue of blood when Jesus said “who touched me” though he was being thronged by a crowd.
Hi Keith,I overlooked this bolded part of your post the first time.
Are you saying there were times when Jesus was on earth that he WASN'T God? How can a being's own substance “leave him” on occasion?
mike
MikeYou may have a point. The word virtue is “dynamis” which means Gods power.
Nevertheless Jesus could not have been tainted by sin or that would mean he was not the sinless Lamb of God.
WJ
WJ When Jesus was hanging on the Cross before He died, He took all of Sins of Humanity upon Him and said:” My God, my God why have you forsaken Me.” And then He died. At that point Jehovah God could not look at Jesus and that is why He said what He did…Peace Irene
I was really surprised that none made a respond to this……
Especially WJ who I addressed this to…..Also I find it so redicoulous to argue about time….. Is there a plain Scripture when time began, except in Genesis? I have not come across one….. I believe that God had no time in Eternity. I also believe when all is done, we will not have time…. There will be no Sun and God will be our light, no time needed…..
Peace IreneQuote (JustAskin @ Sep. 27 2010,07:43) I think 'Procreation' is this instance has been 'procrusteaned', 'stretched so as to conform' with the subject in question…
Hi JA,Are you saying it's a “conspiracy”?
The publishers of the website Dictionary.com got together with me and changed their site to help me out a little? JA:
Quote Mike, there are no Scripture proofs that you will accept to refute your claims
Well, at least you and WJ haven't produced one yet.JA:
Quote Not only has no one been able to convince you that you are wrong, but You, also, cannot show any one that you are right.
Yeah, but I'm moving ever closer…….and this Micah use of the word “day” at the very least eliminates you and WJ's argument that Psalm 2:7 can't be literal just because of the word “day”. So now you're down to “Paul quoted the word 'today', which is easily dismissed. And that's it. That's all you guys have.I, on the other hand, have the fact that Jesus already WAS the only begotten Son of God way before he was raised from the dead. I have the words “ONLY begotten”, which would actually be “first begotten” if it was a metaphorical begetting like the one some of us will receive. Think about it JA, Jesus said some of those standing there would not taste death at all. That means that by now, at least one other person has received this “figurative begetting” and been brought into heaven with Jesus. Which would mean that Jesus is no longer the ONLY begotten Son of God, but merely the FIRST begotten Son of God. Is that the case? Does Jesus no longer hold the title “ONLY begotten Son of God”?
And there's more. But if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine with me. After all, it is still only you and WJ on this site that think Jesus' “begetting” was a metaphorical one. I only ask that you don't pull a Gene here. In other words, if you don't want to discuss the actual scriptures along with WJ and I, then at least be cool enough to not pop in with the “He's right Mike” crap that I get all the time from Gene on the pre-existent topic.
peace and love,
mikeAnd JA,
As someone who based almost his entire defense of the “begetting of Jesus” question on the word “day” being used in Psalm 2:7, I feel you at least owe me a response to the following, which I posted to you earlier:
Now, tell me once again how the same exact Hebrew word “day” absolutely positively HAS to refer to a “literal day” in Psalm 2:7, since you agree it DOESN'T have to in Micah 5:2.
It would be nice just to see you post, “Point taken”, or something to that effect.
mike
God does create beings that are like him. God is spirit and heavenly angels are spirits for example.
If God desires fellowship, then you think that he would give life to beings that are like him.
Mike,
Are you Greek? 'For Greeks require proof'.I do not, as you no doubt observe, delve into minutae of definitions such as to cloud the original point and tangentially go off into phylosophy la la land, where, once entered, there's no way back, a 'bottle trap'. This is why your debates never end and no conclusion is ever in the offing.
Let's debate 'Creation' and 'ProCreation', tell you what, no!
Day, this day, what day, there was no such thing as 'days' nor any such thing as 'day' before there were days.
God would have had to say, 'You are my Son, From Eternity I have begotten you'.
Even to consider, 'Days of Eternity' would have to expanded to, 'Periods of events from Eternity'.Further, 'it is written', 'And God called the light, 'Day', and the dark He called, 'Night'. And the Night and the Day became the 'FIRST DAY'.
Hmmm…there it is. It is written. Ah, let's debate the meaning of 'first day'…ummm, 'no!'
It is written: God created the 'first day', the first 'Day' which consists of a period of Dark, then, a period of light, in that order…so that the dark is the first and the light is the last, for the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first, and 'He taketh away the first in order to establish the second [and last]'Mike, your last comment…sounds like you begging… Have you run out of posters to attempt indoctrination with? JustAskin is not such a one and will spare no quarter if you insist on raising a challenge.
'Your powers are weak, old man'…(Star Wars, episode 1)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,20:25) And JA, As someone who based almost his entire defense of the “begetting of Jesus” question on the word “day” being used in Psalm 2:7, I feel you at least owe me a response to the following, which I posted to you earlier:
Now, tell me once again how the same exact Hebrew word “day” absolutely positively HAS to refer to a “literal day” in Psalm 2:7, since you agree it DOESN'T have to in Micah 5:2.
It would be nice just to see you post, “Point taken”, or something to that effect.
mike
hi Mikeis this the same day than in Gen ??;Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2010,01:14) God does create beings that are like him. God is spirit and heavenly angels are spirits for example. If God desires fellowship, then you think that he would give life to beings that are like him.
Hi t8-Here are the definitions that JA posted:
Quote What is the difference between 'Create' and 'ProCreate'?
And which, then, are we really talking about. No two words mean absolutely the same thing, so which word are we really talking about:
Create…to bring forth [first principle] from that which does not yet exist of the same kind.
ProCreate…to bring forth [second principal] from that which already exist of the same kind.Are you choosing 'procreate' for how the Son came into being since He is the same kind as His Father?
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 26 2010,19:13) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 22 2010,04:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,15:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,22:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,14:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,04:14) Mike When Jesus touched the lepers (leprousy was a type of sin) he did not get infected by it, instead the essence or substance of God left him and healed them just as it left him and healed the woman with the issue of blood when Jesus said “who touched me” though he was being thronged by a crowd.
Hi Keith,I overlooked this bolded part of your post the first time.
Are you saying there were times when Jesus was on earth that he WASN'T God? How can a being's own substance “leave him” on occasion?
mike
MikeYou may have a point. The word virtue is “dynamis” which means Gods power.
Nevertheless Jesus could not have been tainted by sin or that would mean he was not the sinless Lamb of God.
WJ
WJ When Jesus was hanging on the Cross before He died, He took all of Sins of Humanity upon Him and said:” My God, my God why have you forsaken Me.” And then He died. At that point Jehovah God could not look at Jesus and that is why He said what He did…Peace Irene
I was really surprised that none made a respond to this……
Especially WJ who I addressed this to…..Also I find it so redicoulous to argue about time….. Is there a plain Scripture when time began, except in Genesis? I have not come across one….. I believe that God had no time in Eternity. I also believe when all is done, we will not have time…. There will be no Sun and God will be our light, no time needed…..
Peace Irene
Hi Irene,
You said:Quote I believe that God had no time in Eternity. I also believe when all is done, we will not have time…. There will be no Sun and God will be our light, no time needed….. Revelation 21:24-26 NASB
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
Do you see that there will be 'daytime' in the future eternity? So if there is daytime in the future eternity why wouldn't there be daytime in past eternity?
Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 27 2010,03:30) Mike,
Are you Greek? 'For Greeks require proof'.I do not, as you no doubt observe, delve into minutae of definitions such as to cloud the original point and tangentially go off into phylosophy la la land, where, once entered, there's no way back, a 'bottle trap'. This is why your debates never end and no conclusion is ever in the offing.
Let's debate 'Creation' and 'ProCreation', tell you what, no!
Day, this day, what day, there was no such thing as 'days' nor any such thing as 'day' before there were days.
God would have had to say, 'You are my Son, From Eternity I have begotten you'.
Even to consider, 'Days of Eternity' would have to expanded to, 'Periods of events from Eternity'.Further, 'it is written', 'And God called the light, 'Day', and the dark He called, 'Night'. And the Night and the Day became the 'FIRST DAY'.
Hmmm…there it is. It is written. Ah, let's debate the meaning of 'first day'…ummm, 'no!'
It is written: God created the 'first day', the first 'Day' which consists of a period of Dark, then, a period of light, in that order…so that the dark is the first and the light is the last, for the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first, and 'He taketh away the first in order to establish the second [and last]'
Hi AllJA Good post and spot on, and it absolutely proves that there were no days before the “first day”. But Mike will insist on beating this dead horse.
But they will do anythng to explain away the scripture Psalms 2 that clearly in its context proves that Jesus existed when he was “begotten” and again the Apostles elevated the scriptures in three place in relation to his resurection.
I will be back to make a few comments to Mikes previous post but this subject is coming to its end for me because I will not continue to chase his ambiguous claims.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 27 2010,10:08) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 26 2010,19:13) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 22 2010,04:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,15:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,22:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,14:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,04:14) Mike When Jesus touched the lepers (leprousy was a type of sin) he did not get infected by it, instead the essence or substance of God left him and healed them just as it left him and healed the woman with the issue of blood when Jesus said “who touched me” though he was being thronged by a crowd.
Hi Keith,I overlooked this bolded part of your post the first time.
Are you saying there were times when Jesus was on earth that he WASN'T God? How can a being's own substance “leave him” on occasion?
mike
MikeYou may have a point. The word virtue is “dynamis” which means Gods power.
Nevertheless Jesus could not have been tainted by sin or that would mean he was not the sinless Lamb of God.
WJ
WJ When Jesus was hanging on the Cross before He died, He took all of Sins of Humanity upon Him and said:” My God, my God why have you forsaken Me.” And then He died. At that point Jehovah God could not look at Jesus and that is why He said what He did…Peace Irene
I was really surprised that none made a respond to this……
Especially WJ who I addressed this to…..Also I find it so redicoulous to argue about time….. Is there a plain Scripture when time began, except in Genesis? I have not come across one….. I believe that God had no time in Eternity. I also believe when all is done, we will not have time…. There will be no Sun and God will be our light, no time needed…..
Peace Irene
Hi Irene,
You said:Quote I believe that God had no time in Eternity. I also believe when all is done, we will not have time…. There will be no Sun and God will be our light, no time needed….. Revelation 21:24-26 NASB
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
Do you see that there will be 'daytime' in the future eternity? So if there is daytime in the future eternity why wouldn't there be daytime in past eternity?
KathiBecause there was a beginning and we find in the beginning God created the “First day”.
WJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 25 2010,04:18) Lu,
Here is the Definition of Time
Time–noun
1. the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.
2. duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration.
3. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a system or method of measuring or reckoning the passage of time: mean time; apparent time; Greenwich Time.
4. a limited period or interval, as between two successive events: a long time.God is like an Ocean which represents eternity, endless dept, and a forever distance,
Time is like a bubble within that ocean.The Ocean is Infinite,
The Bubble is Finite,Infinite cannto be measured,
Finite Can be measured,This is the way i look at time.
Dennison,
Your 'ocean' is like my 'A' and 'C' and your 'bubble' is like my 'B.'Your definitions are good. The #1 definition would be my A and C and the #2 definitions would be my B on my timeline.
Thanks!
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