Does god procreate?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,15:17)

There was time before the beginning of the earth otherwise the earth would be always existent.

Kathi

HUH? What does that even mean? God was always existent, does that mean that there is no “present” time?

You said…

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,08:49)

If there were no time, there would be no sequence of before and after or during.

Was there anything before eternity?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,15:22)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,10:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,08:49) And yes, beginning and end have meaning because of the existence of time. Kathi Exactly, and if you take away the beginning and the end then you have no time but only eternity. Once again… “SHOW ME A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THERE WERE DAYS OR TIME BEFORE THE BEGINNING OR DAY ONE“ WJ Keith Any scripture that speaks of eternity in a past sense tells you there was time before the beginning.  Eternity is infinite time.

Kathi

It doesn't tell me any such thing. And you fail to present a scripture that says or even implies that “Eternity is infinite time”.

But lets assume that you are right which would mean you are saying that Psalms 2:7 means Jesus was begotten from eternity since you say “eternity is infinite time” by saying that it was before the beginning.

In other words Jesus always was right?

WJ

[terraricca]

WJ

you starting again to confusing ,in your type of question,

i can smell it from here.

Pierre

[shimmer]

LU and Terrarica, thanks.

I was just curious why it says Almighty. My Mother uses this to say Jesus is God, she's sort of Trinitarian, oneness, I can't quite figure out which one ! But thankyou Terrarica I understand what you said.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,17:10)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,15:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,10:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,08:49) And yes, beginning and end have meaning because of the existence of time. Kathi Exactly, and if you take away the beginning and the end then you have no time but only eternity. Once again… “SHOW ME A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THERE WERE DAYS OR TIME BEFORE THE BEGINNING OR DAY ONE“ WJ Keith Any scripture that speaks of eternity in a past sense tells you there was time before the beginning.  Eternity is infinite time. Kathi It doesn't tell me any such thing. And you fail to present a scripture that says or even implies that “Eternity is infinite time”. But lets assume that you are right which would mean you are saying that Psalms 2:7 means Jesus was begotten from eternity since you say “eternity is infinite time” by saying that it was before the beginning. In other words Jesus always was right? WJ

Keith,
I thought it was obvious that eternity was in reference to time which had no beginning or end. I picture a timeline with an arrow on each end implying a continuous line.

I will show you a verse that speaks of an act that happened before the foundation of the world.

3 Blessed R8 be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the R9 heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy R12 and blameless before Him. F4 In R13 love 5 He F5 predestined R14 us to adoption R15 as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according R16 to the kind F6 intention of His will, 6 to R17 the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the R18 Beloved.

The word of God, the Son, was begotten at a point in time during eternity. Before being begotten, the Son was within the Father but not with His Father. He became with His Father when begotten. The Son's nature was always in existence within the Father, the Son as a person began when begotten.

imo

[mikeboll64]

Keith:

Quote

You see there you go again, the same questions expecting a different answer so now you want me to chase you down the rabbit hole again. Its like you never even read the post.

What are you talking about?  You have yet to actually ANSWER the question……..as usual.

Listen intently here Keith.  

It doesn't really matter how many English translations you list that don't say “beginning”.  The LXX, which Jack said was quoted much more often than the Hebrew by Jesus and the NT writers, says “BEGINNING”.  Not only that, but this is the defininition of “mowtsa'ah”:

mowtsa'ah
1) origin, place of going out from
  1a) origin
  1b) places of going out to or from
     1b1) privy

According to this from NET, “mowtsa'ah” CLEARLY means “origin”.  It cant' be talking about a “place” Jesus was going out from or a “privy” in the Micah 5:2 context.  What does that leave?  And once again, just in case you missed it AGAIN…….the LXX renders it as “arche”, or “beginning”.  And out of the translations you list, 15 of them render it “origin” or “origins”.  What is the difference Keith?  Someone's “origin” is also that one's “beginning”.  It clearly does not imply that Jesus' “originating OTHER things” was from days of antiquity.  It says HIS ORIGIN, as in HIS BEGINNING, just like the LXX puts it.

But that is not even the point I've been trying to make Keith.  Go ahead and use your “activities” meaning for now.  The fact that “yowm” and “owlam” are together means it says “DAYS of antiquity”, or “DAYS of eternity”.

Here are two very simple DIRECT questions Keith.  Are you ready?

You “refute” the meaning of Psalm 2:7 by implying there can't be “DAYS” before they were created through Jesus.  So I ask you, how can Jesus' “activities” only be from “DAYS” of antiquity?  If you take the word “DAYS” literally in Micah 5:2, it says there were already “DAYS” before Jesus, whether you use “origin” or “activities”.  

1.  Do you think that Jesus' “activities” didn't begin until there were already “DAYS”?

2.  Or do you think that the word “DAYS” in Micah 5:2 must refer, not to an actual “DAY” as we understand them, but to a particular “moment in time” before “DAYS” as we understand them were even created by God through Jesus?

Just for a moment, forget about Psalm 2.  Were the “DAYS” mentioned in Micah 5:2 literal human “DAYS”, or not?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,16:37)

No Mike that is not what the context bears out… “We tell you the good news: “What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. “As it is written in the second Psalm:   “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.* ” Acts 13:33 This is what the NET says Mike… 127sn You are my Son. The key to how the quotation is used is the naming of Jesus as “Son” to the Father. The language is that of kingship, as Ps 2 indicates. Here is the promise about what the ultimate Davidic heir would be.

Keith, I have been asking if God ever promised the forefathers that He would some day “appoint” someone to the “position” of “begotten Son”.

I told you that Paul said a promise was fulfilled by raising Jesus.

Apparently, NETNotes agrees with me at least on this point:

sn This promise refers to the promise of a Savior through the seed (descendants) of David that is proclaimed as fulfilled (Rom 1:1-7).

Jesus being raised fulfilled God's promise of a savior, who would rule with righteousness forever.  He promised a good shepherd in whom we could trust to care for us.  He never promised, “Someday, I'll appoint God #2 to the title of “Only Begotten Son of God #1”.

Plus you ignore the fact that Jesus already WAS the “only begotten Son of God” before he was raised.  He said so.

And you ignore Hebrews 1:6, which says,

Heb 1:6 NET  
But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him!”

This shows that Jesus was already God's “firstborn” when he was in the world the first time.  The “again” refers to Jesus' second coming.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 23 2010,09:50)

LU and Terrarica, thanks. I was just curious why it says Almighty. My Mother uses this to say Jesus is God, she's sort of Trinitarian, oneness, I can't quite figure out which one ! But thankyou Terrarica I understand what you said.

Hi Shimmer,

Jesus is never called the “Almighty” anywhere in scripture.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,19:49)

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 23 2010,09:50) LU and Terrarica, thanks. I was just curious why it says Almighty. My Mother uses this to say Jesus is God, she's sort of Trinitarian, oneness, I can't quite figure out which one ! But thankyou Terrarica I understand what you said. Hi Shimmer, Jesus is never called the “Almighty” anywhere in scripture. mike

shimmer

Mike is totally right about Christ never be called ALMIGHTY”

so please take notice of this

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,17:10)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,15:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,10:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,08:49) And yes, beginning and end have meaning because of the existence of time. Kathi Exactly, and if you take away the beginning and the end then you have no time but only eternity. Once again… “SHOW ME A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THERE WERE DAYS OR TIME BEFORE THE BEGINNING OR DAY ONE“ WJ Keith Any scripture that speaks of eternity in a past sense tells you there was time before the beginning.  Eternity is infinite time. Kathi It doesn't tell me any such thing. And you fail to present a scripture that says or even implies that “Eternity is infinite time”. But lets assume that you are right which would mean you are saying that Psalms 2:7 means Jesus was begotten from eternity since you say “eternity is infinite time” by saying that it was before the beginning. In other words Jesus always was right? WJ

Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,18:07)

Keith, I thought it was obvious that eternity was in reference to time which had no beginning or end.

Are the words “Time” and “Eternity” synonomous?

No it is not obvious as you say for you assume that your definition of  “eternity” is right Biblically, however there are other definitions like “timeless existence”, you do believe that God dwells in a “timeless existence” don’t you? So every thing that comes after God has its beginning in Gen 1:1 – John 1:1-3.

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,18:07)

I picture a timeline with an arrow on each end implying a continuous line.

You mean like this…

<——–Eternity——->Beginning———-End<——-Eternity——->

I would assume what you call the “timeline” starts at the beginning and ends at the end, since before and after that is God who dwells in a timeless existence. Fortunately we will share that existence after the end of time, but nothing had that existence before time, not even time.

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,18:07)

I will show you a verse that speaks of an act that happened before the foundation of the world. 3 Blessed R8 be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the R9 heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the  foundation of the world, that we would be holy R12 and blameless before Him. F4 In R13 love 5 He F5 predestined R14 us to adoption R15 as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according R16 to the kind F6 intention of His will, 6 to R17 the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the R18 Beloved.

LOL is that all you have to prove that days or time existed before Gen 1:1?

Is God all knowing Kathi? So at what point in eternity did God make that decision? Since he knows all things wouldn’t it make sense that he had already from eternity predestined us? How does his “omniscience” prove that time or days existed before Gen 1:1? He also predestined he was going to create all things didn’t he? He also predestined there would be time and a beginning and days, didn’t he?

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,18:07)

The word of God, the Son, was begotten at a point in time during eternity.

This is totally confusing. First of all the scriptures do not say Jesus is the “word of God” but that he has the title or name “The Word of God”, (notice the caps). Secondly you have no scriptures that say he was “born” from God at some point of time before the beginning.

“ Please show me the scripture that clearly supports your statements ”. Here in the south we have a statement that goes…”show me the bacon“.

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,18:07)

Before being begotten, the Son was within the Father but not with His Father. He became with His Father when begotten

So at some point the Son “ceased” to be in the Father? Where is the scripture that says the Son is no longer “IN” the Father but with him?  Why didn’t John tell us this in John 1:1 by saying…

“In the beginning was the word of God who was in God and the word of God was born out of God and was with God and was God”..

There is a lot of inference in the above statement.

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,18:07)

The Son's nature was always in existence within the Father, the Son as a person began when begotten.

Where is the scripture for that? When he was “begotten” (same word, gennaō) in the virgin Mary, did he begin as another person?

Kathi we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of “eternity”, but IMO any honest person cannot read Psalms 2 and interpret that to mean that God beget a god out of himself before the beginning of all things including the days. The context totally disagrees with that thought and any honest person using proper Biblical interpretation skills or hermeneutics could not come to that conclusion and most of the experts disagree with that conclusion also.

WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. The period of time in which the earth exists happens during that eternity. How time is measured is up to God's design for what He is doing, i.e. God put the sun and moon in the sky and caused rotation and orbits for our realm. What He does for another realm may or may not be the same. We don't even know if there is another created realm with life. We are told of a heavenly realm and those in it understand our days and nights but I don't believe their measurement of time is caused by revolving and orbiting around our sun.

I would say that existence causes time, time does not cause existence.

God exists, He says that He was, He is, and He is to come. He is the before, the during and the after.

Your picture of my timeline is accurate except it doesn't start at what you labeled as beginning, nor does it end at what you labeled 'end.' An eternal timeline doesn't start or end. A 'period of time' within the eternal timeline has a start and an end. We are living within a period of time in eternity. Is that really that strange for you? It is just obvious to me.

I said:

Quote

Before being begotten, the Son was within the Father but not with His Father. He became with His Father when begotten

Why is this so easy with the early church fathers to see but with you it is so hard? Does begotten not mean begotten to you?

The term 'the only begotten Son of God' alone infers 'God OF God,' within at one point and then begotten from at another point, of the same nature, etc. With that title the Pharisees crucified the Lord an claimed that He was making Himself equal to God, etc.

When He came from Mary, He was not another person, He united with the flesh of man and took on and truly had the limits of a human baby. I think He also had the memory of a human baby because that was one of the limits He took on. He was still spirit but was confined within the flesh.

You want verses and that would take a lot of time of which I am not willing to spend because of other things that I want to do today.

As far as Psalms 2, I would suggest putting that aside for awhile. You need to understand some other things first like what was the Son before He was begotten, and when was He originally begotten.

It is so obvious that He was begotten before the ages because all things came into being through Him and apart from Him, nothing came into being.

He is always 'in' God in a sense and in another sense He is 'with' God. I don't believe that He was 'with' God until He was begotten.

This is not unique to me, Keith, this is a common understanding with the early church fathers.

[shimmer]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2010,02:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,19:49) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 23 2010,09:50) LU and Terrarica, thanks. I was just curious why it says Almighty. My Mother uses this to say Jesus is God, she's sort of Trinitarian, oneness, I can't quite figure out which one ! But thankyou Terrarica I understand what you said. Hi Shimmer, Jesus is never called the “Almighty” anywhere in scripture. mike shimmer Mike is totally right about Christ never be called ALMIGHTY” so please take notice of this Pierre

Yeah I know, Terrarica I understand. Was just stuck on that verse but I understand now. Thanks.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Keith,

I said:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,20:46)

Keith, you just posted last night about the blood of Jesus.  You pointed to the scriptures that indicate that everything on earth is a “lessor copy” of what is in heaven.  How do you know there isn't a “Mt Zion” in heaven?  How do you know that Jesus hasn't been reigning from the heavenly Mt. Zion for billions of years?  He was already the “King of the Jews” before he was raised from the dead, right?

You responded:

Quote

Wow Mike how far will you carry this to deny the truth. Mt Zion is the type of Gods dwelling place in “Israel”, that place and Israel was not created until after the beginning in Genesis 1:1. Get real man.

Maybe it is YOU who should “get real, man”.

Heb 12:22 NIV
22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Doesn't that say there is a heavenly Mount Zion?  

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Mike

On a quick note…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,17:15)

But like Mike you are refusing to see that Jesus begetting in Pss 2:6, 7 was called upon by the disciples in reference to his resurrection when he sat on the Holy hill of Zion or the right hand of the Father.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,20:46)

Keith, you just posted last night about the blood of Jesus.  You pointed to the scriptures that indicate that everything on earth is a “lessor copy” of what is in heaven.  How do you know there isn't a “Mt Zion” in heaven?  How do you know that Jesus hasn't been reigning from the heavenly Mt. Zion for billions of years?  He was already the “King of the Jews” before he was raised from the dead, right?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,00:37)

Wow Mike how far will you carry this to deny the truth. Mt Zion is the type of Gods dwelling place in “Israel”, that place and Israel was not created until after the beginning in Genesis 1:1. Get real man.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,22:10)

Maybe it is YOU who should “get real, man”. Heb 12:22 NIV 22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, Doesn't that say there is a heavenly Mount Zion?

Really? OK Mike, so what you are saying is that Psalms 2:6 is speaking of  Jesus being set upon his Holy Hill, Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem where thousands of Angels were in Joyful assembly billions of years ago before the beginning in Gen 1:1, then is when Jesus was born from God and the decree was made “Thou art my Son; THIS DAY have I begotten thee.? Is that what you mean?

Were mount Zion, and the Heavenly Jerusalem and the Angels before Jesus being born (begetting as you say)? Were mount Zion, and the Heavenly Jerusalem and the Angels before Gen 1:1?

Did Mount Zion his Holy Hill exists before Jesus came into existence in Pss 2:7?

Get real man! Are you thinking these things through? The Father had no need for a Kingdom until the beginning when he created all things and who was there with him?  

Remember…

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:3

Not only did John say “ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING (BY OR) THROUGH HIM, but in case someone misunderstood him he says…

APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING. and that includes the light and the waters which proceeded the days.

Again that’s one of the points you just skipped over.

There has to be one scripture somewhere Mike that says there were days before the “FIRST DAY” in Genesis 1:5.  Micah 5:2 proves nothing because of the various meanings and translation of the words.

Where is the clear scripture that says there are “Days” before the “FIRST DAY” in Gen 1:5?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38)

Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end.

Kathi

So a “time period” is synonomous with “eternity”?

Hogwash.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38)

God exists, He says that He was, He is, and He is to come.  He is the before, the during and the after.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38)

An eternal timeline doesn't start or end.

This is a contradiction of terms because a “timeline” would have a beginning and an end. You cannot draw an “eternal line” that has no beginning or end.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38)

Why is this so easy with the early church fathers to see but with you it is so hard?  Does begotten not mean begotten to you?

Kathi

Why do you imply there is only “ONE DEFINITION” of begotten?

Why do you ignore that the Fathers disagreed among themselves about the use of the term and many use the word as in he was “eternally begotten” and disagree with you about Jesus having a beginning before time but in fact believe that he was always with the Father?

You insist that the definition of “eternity” is a “period of time” with no beginning and no end, then why can't you accept that Jesus was eternally begotten without a beginning or an end?

Why do you deny the Athanasian Creed as proof by the Forefathers of their final conclusion to end the Arian controversy over Jesus origins?

Why do you not accept the majority of the Forefathers teaching on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit as a third person?

You see Kathi I have more early Fathers on my side than you do yours, not to mention the millions of believers world wide today that believe in and know that God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38)

It is so obvious that He was begotten before the ages because all things came into being through Him and apart from Him, nothing came into being.

Ha Ha

“…NOTHING CAME INTO BEING.”

And that includes himself because he was already there with the Father in the beginning. If Jesus was “Born” before the beginning then that would mean that he is part of the beginning. Because if something comes into existence then that would be “The beginning” right? So that would mean that Johns words are a lie since he says Jesus was there in the beginning and not that he had a beginning.

Now please show us scripture that says he was “born from God” before the ages because John 1:1-3 is not it and in fact contradicts you.

If Jesus was “born before the ages, a god from God” then Why did John leave out such an important fact Kathi?

He didn't leave out a thing did he? John 1:1-3

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 25 2010,10:07)

Hi Mike On a quick note… Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,17:15) But like Mike you are refusing to see that Jesus begetting in Pss 2:6, 7 was called upon by the disciples in reference to his resurrection when he sat on the Holy hill of Zion or the right hand of the Father. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,20:46) Keith, you just posted last night about the blood of Jesus.  You pointed to the scriptures that indicate that everything on earth is a “lessor copy” of what is in heaven.  How do you know there isn't a “Mt Zion” in heaven?  How do you know that Jesus hasn't been reigning from the heavenly Mt. Zion for billions of years?  He was already the “King of the Jews” before he was raised from the dead, right? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2010,00:37) Wow Mike how far will you carry this to deny the truth. Mt Zion is the type of Gods dwelling place in “Israel”, that place and Israel was not created until after the beginning in Genesis 1:1. Get real man. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,22:10) Maybe it is YOU who should “get real, man”. Heb 12:22 NIV 22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, Doesn't that say there is a heavenly Mount Zion? Really? OK Mike, so what you are saying is that Psalms 2:6 is speaking of  Jesus being set upon his Holy Hill, Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem where thousands of Angels were in Joyful assembly billions of years ago before the beginning in Gen 1:1, then is when Jesus was born from God and the decree was made “Thou art my Son; THIS DAY have I begotten thee.? Is that what you mean? Were mount Zion, and the Heavenly Jerusalem and the Angels before Jesus being born (begetting as you say)? Were mount Zion, and the Heavenly Jerusalem and the Angels before Gen 1:1? Did Mount Zion his Holy Hill exists before Jesus came into existence in Pss 2:7? Get real man! Are you thinking these things through? The Father had no need for a Kingdom until the beginning when he created all things and who was there with him?   Remember… All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:3 Not only did John say “ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING (BY OR) THROUGH HIM, but in case someone misunderstood him he says… APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING. and that includes the light and the waters which proceeded the days. Again that’s one of the points you just skipped over. There has to be one scripture somewhere Mike that says there were days before the “FIRST DAY” in Genesis 1:5.  Micah 5:2 proves nothing because of the various meanings and translation of the words. Where is the clear scripture that says there are “Days” before the “FIRST DAY” in Gen 1:5? WJ

WJ

i have to but in ,since you do not understand scriptures ,but i think you do but you are not truthful,

as for your comment on ;Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

Ps 46:4 There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God,
the holy place where the Most High dwells.
Ps 87:3 Glorious things are said of you,
O city of God:

Paul called he the heavenly Jerusalem,and mount Zion

and i believe it is all part of creation after Christ.

Pierre

[Author]

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