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Hi david,
Yes it is good that the light of Christ has drawn you out of that cult of deception.
Now you can think clearly you say.
David,
The violence has not declined in my neighborhood. Another young man was shot and murdered a week or two ago. I hope my neighborhood is outside the norm. Thankfully we have been medicine no so that many of those victims that would die now live. I read an early superman comic and the bad guy was a wife beater. That was his only crime. That was like the 1930’s. The definition of child abuse has changed since the 18th Century.
We have gun fights but I believe they are fewer in number because they are illegal.
Hi,
So where does the CONSCIENCE fit in?
Man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Unless a man has a SEARED CONSCIENCE it should serve him. Rom 2.14.
Of course many acquire a certain morality by fitting in with the MORES of society or their culture.
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David,The violence has not declined in my neighborhood. Another young man was shot and murdered a week or two ago. I hope my neighborhood is outside the norm. Thankfully we have been medicine no so that many of those victims that would die now live. I read an early superman comic and the bad guy was a wife beater. That was his only crime. That was like the 1930’s. The definition of child abuse has changed since the 18th Century.
We have gun fights but I believe they are fewer in number because they are illegal.
Hi kerwin. Ya, in the honeymooners show, which I am too young to have ever seen, Jackie Gleason very often tells his wife he is going to hit her in the kisser. Right to the moon. While this is a joke, it’s one that would t be acceptable today on a Mainstream TV show. The Beatles have a son called “getting better.” In it he says he used to beat his wife and keep her from the things she loved. Understand that wife beating was legal, virtually everywhere, for virtually all of history. Maybe not ancient Egypt. Reading transcripts of a couple hundred years ago judges in Europe very oten had to explain to the husbands that there was no such “rule of thumb” rule, being that husbands falsely believed it was okay to beat their wives wth a stick as long as it was thinner than his thumb. This was false and isn’t where that expression comes from. But many believes it. To make matters worse for a long time they only fpdrank beer and not water for safety reasons. Everyone. Children, wives, husbands. But it was the mildest version, the x, not xxx. But still, a lot of those transcripts have the husband being drunk which is understandable given that they drank beer like water.
The anecdotal fact that violence hasn’t declined where you live is not relevant to the overall trend. I also live in a violent place. My city has made the most violent city in Canada list numerous times. But ther more prone ant cities haven’t. Crime in my city might be rising while crime in 3 other cities is falling. We must look at the whole. In Latin America for example homicides are increasing. A person there might false reason that homicide is globally getting worse. It is not. Anecdotes while persuasive to the individual are not particularly useful in determining reality.
I’m the U.S. It was in 1920 that in the last states it finally became illegal to beat wives. It was also 1920 that women got the vote I believe. A hundred years before, women were property with no rights or property rights or legal rights and hence were largely treated that way.
Hi,
So where does the CONSCIENCE fit in?
Man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Unless a man has a SEARED CONSCIENCE it should serve him. Rom 2.14.
Of course many acquire a certain morality by fitting in with the MORES of society or their culture.
Hi nick. Yes, we are born with a sense of right and wrong. Bit a lot of what we consider matters of conscience are modelled in childhood. A canibal holds no moral qualms when he eats a human. In fact he feels bad if he doesn’t. I wasn’t God that put this feeling in him. He was raised from youth to see certain things as good and normal.
I am more interested in societal norms. It used to be Much more normal to beat children. The bible endorses this. And for thousands of years this behaviour was acceptable. I would imagine long before the bible was written it was acceptable. But recently societal norms and global morality has been slowly changing. It is becoming viewed as less and less moral to beat a child. And many would think it grossly immoral. And especially to beat your very own child.
I posed this question a while ago and it was ignored. If a homosexual is told by nick that he is condemned and then the homosexual says: times have changed so this doesn’t apply and then nick says: gods thoughts don’t change, how would nick respond if the homosexual asks nick about beating children? Bruises and wounds cleanse away evil. You should beat him with the a rod. He will not die.
How will nick respond to this homosexual after telling the homosexual that God doesn’t change regardless if times have changed.World morality changes. But the bible hasn’t been changing. So how is it that Christians everywhere used to beat their children and own slaves and beat the slaves but today most would think this immoral. Where does morality come from.
Nick and gene.
i did not actually say what you think I said in the miracle thread. Context is important. Pronouns are important.
Beating wives whether legal or illegal is not the issue, it is weird how you keep combining morality with judging morality. The bible for instance does not “promote” beating children but that is the way you keep framing the context. All talks of corporeal punishment is the extreme example. When the Bible speaks of going to hell it is not promoting hell or going to hell it is simply giving the clear warning and the criteria.
So you’re question is not about morality at all it is about Judging morality
David,
My point is that more violence that stats would show is around due to the fact that our medicine has steadily progressed.
I have anger problems and I manage them because the bible teaches me to do so. The law of the land helps though I am not sure if that is that help is necessary since I am already willing to learn. There is also advice on the internet on how to deal with anger management issues.
The advances in technology have helped overcome violence and the reduced the damage done by violence over time.
There is also the effect of cultural change though I am not sure that is always to the best.
Hi nick.
Jesus apostatized from Judaism. So did Paul. Is this the worst form of morality, as you say? If a Roman Catholic apostatized from Catholicism would that be the worst, like you say?
I didn’t really say upbringing was more important. The ideas that are programmed or modelled or patterned or indoctrinated into your head at an early age do have a vast effect on what yo perceive as moral or immoral.
But inborn conscience is also there.
Beating wives whether legal or illegal is not the issue, it is weird how you keep combining morality with judging morality. The bible for instance does not “promote” beating children but that is the way you keep framing the context. All talks of corporeal punishment is the extreme example. When the Bible speaks of going to hell it is not promoting hell or going to hell it is simply giving the clear warning and the criteria.
So you’re question is not about morality at all it is about Judging morality
I should differentiate between perceived morality and true morality better. For a long time burning witches alive and Jews alive was viewed as moral by many Christians. These people were as delusional as many are today. That which creates needless suffering is not moral. It is immoral.
The bible almost commands beating children saying you “should” do this. It most often uses the word “naar” which relates to a child about 10-12 years old though. This is often the age parents today stop spanking or hitting their children. I wonder why you don’t know that the bible encourages, promotes, and even could be said to command corporeal punishment.
These are all found in proverbs. Today we like to think these are all symbolic for some reason or figurative. No reason to think that. I recently looked up every instance of the word rod in the bible. It is an implementation of violence, beatings and pain, not gentle nudges. Paul was beaten countless times. Slaves (non-Jewish ones) were allowed to be beaten. People were stoned to death. And the one who wrote those words in proverbs built a high place to molech, a God that his wives used to burn his own sons alive to. An I’m guessing Solomon had a lot of children, although there isn’t too much mention of them for some reason. When he threatened to cut a baby in half that was a very real threat. Given that people around him were burning babies, his own babies alive, he wouldn’t have blinked at siding the baby of this prostitute in half. Given that time and the violence or cruelty of that time, why would we believe that the 5 or so scriptures that directly say to beat your children aren’t literal? If they aren’t then a bad job was done of communicating this since these verses have been used by millions to beat their children. If this is all symbolic then someone did a bad job of communicating that and given the importance of it I can’t see the divine author saying oops. I recently read an article of a dad that beat his daughter to death. He was very religious. Followed the bible. To the letter. Would you like me to quote the scriptures?
My point is that the bile does in fact literally say to beat them and with a rod. This was viewed by Christians as proper morality for thousands of years. But The WORLD changes its view. Now it is not as oral to do these things. The bible hasn’t changed.
So if a Christian feels a twinge of reluctance to beat his child, if he feels this immoral, then where does he really get his morality from? Is he imitating the words changed view? Or gods unchanging one?
For bod.
PROVERBS 23:13,14
“Do not hold back discipline from the mere boy [naar]. In case you beat him with the rod, he will not die. With the rod you yourself should beat him, that you may deliver his very soul from Sheol itself.”Here it mentions “beating” your boy, saying “with the rod you should beat him.” 2 Cor 11:23-27 mentions that Paul suffered “countless beatings” and was “beaten with rods” 3 times and received 39 strokes, 5 times.
(((((((The 39 strokes back then was inflicted with a leather scourge of three knotted thongs, and with a curious distribution: thirteen strokes were given on the breast, thirteen on the right shoulder, and thirteen on the left. See: Josephus, Ant. 4. viii, section 21.))))))))
Why would we think Paul being beaten with a Rod is literal, while the command to beat your “naar” (about 10 or 12 year old boy) with a rod is figurative?PROVERBS 13:24
“The one holding back his rod is hating his son [“benow”, son] but the one loving him is he that does look for him with discipline.”PROVERBS 22:15
“Foolishness is tied up with the heart of a boy [naar]; the rod of discipline is what will remove it far from him.”PROVERBS 29:15, 17
“The rod AND reproof are what give wisdom; but a boy [naar] let on the loose will be causing his mother shame. . . . Chastise your son and he will bring you rest and give much pleasure to your soul.”
(Here, the rod is differentiated from reproof.)
PROVERBS 19:18
“Chastise your son while there exists hope; and to the putting of him to death do not lift up your soulful desire.”Besides disciplining children by beating them with a rod, the Bible encouraged hitting others with rods as well.
THE ROD AND BEATINGS ARE FOR THE BACK OF FOOLS.
PROVERBS 26:3
“A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!”PROVERBS 19:29
“Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.”PROVERBS 10:13
“Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.”PROVERBS 18:6
“The lips of one who is stupid enter into quarreling, and his very mouth calls even for strokes.”PROVERBS 20:30
“Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.”So for thosuands of years people have read these scriptures–they have read that last scripture, and beat their children up as a form of discipline. The bible didn’t change. People’s perception of what is right and wrong has changed, as the world became less violent and less cruel. Their morality changed. But the bible didn’t change. This is why I wonder if we truly get our morality from the bible? Or if we simply overlay the bible over our own morality and try to make the pieces fit with what we find acceptable. In 50 years most Christians will find a way to believe that the scriptures about homosexuality are figurative somehow. They will point to how God is loving. They will use their own morality, as I think they always have.
Hi david,
There is no appointed position for judging God and His scriptures.
Perhaps if were reborn of the Spirit your thinking would become clear
Hi bod yes, to be clear, it seems by asking if we get “our” morality from the bible, I’m not asking if the bible is truly moral. That would be a vet different discussion. I’m asking if what we perceive as our morality really comes from where we claim it does. I do not think it does.
Person X has a set of morals that HE thinks of as morality. He believes he got these from the bible.
Some of HIS “morals” come from other men. Many come from his parents and what they programmed or modelled into him, along with other influence or even peers at an early age. And many overlap with the bible. But if they truly came from the bible, I think he would be behaving differently.
david,
But if they truly came from the bible, I think he would be behaving differently.
The morality of our culture comes from our flesh nature or we would be living in paradise.
Some of it is based on interpretation of Scripture.
Hi david,
You may consider it apostasy to leave catholicism.
But that is not from God’s perspective.
Come out of her
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