- This topic is empty.
- Posts
David,
This may be the same researcher and it does seem to address the idea of spare the rod spoil the child. I do not see research to back it up and it seems to be dated 1966.
“Reliance” doesn’t mean “excessive.” That’s not at all what reliance means.
“I am not an advocate of spanking,” said Baumrind, “but a blanket injunction against its use is not warranted by the evidence. It is RELIANCE ON PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT, not whether or not it is used at all, THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH HARM TO THE CHILD.”–the researcher.
So I’ve never believed that one spanking is going to turn a child into a murderer. I do believe that the more aggression that is shown, the more aggression that is modelled, the more aggresive the child is likely to be down the line and the more messed up they are likely to be down the line.
If you look at the stats you will find most who spank don’t do it once a year or even once a month but do it often. It is their go to method of dealing with problems. They “rely” on it.
As YOUR researcher states, reliance on physical punishment is associated with harm to the child. (Mentally, emotionally, socially).
I feel if that other article was written 50 years ago, I’d rather not read it.
I’m going to try to bring this back to the topic. There are things in the bible that some now consider immoral (such as owning another human being, and bearing them) and there are things that today we also consider great and very moral.
We can’t be using the bible to judge this because we are looking at the bible itself. And that has to mean that there is something else, something we are using to determine what is moral or immoral that is outside of the bible.
(While some on here would feel it is good and fine to own another human being and to hit them to get them to obey, the vast majority of people who believe in the bible do not condone slavery. So what are they usimg to come up with what is moral and what is not moral?)
David,
So I’ve never believed that one spanking is going to turn a child into a murderer. I do believe that the more aggression that is shown, the more aggression that is modelled, the more aggresive the child is likely to be down the line and the more messed up they are likely to be down the line.
This study does not warrant that conclusion though I believe that parents teach by example. It does warrant saying that if you are in the red then you should consider your ways. If you use discipline justly then you will not be in the red group.
The researches suspected that the people in the group were high risk and that suspicion was tested true. I do not know if everyone they chose to put in the group was borderline abusive but that seems to have been the aim of the researchers.
Your assumption is that all aggression is immoral and that is not necessary true. In these case as long as the aggression, whether physical or verbal stayed in moderation the association with a negative outcome is weak.
Reliance may not mean excessive to to you but you are not the one that spoke the words. The red group was the group that the study revealed a link between their behavior and negative outcomes for the child. For the most part I consider the red group used unjust and excessive force.
David,
We can’t be using the bible to judge this because we are looking at the bible itself. And that has to mean that there is something else, something we are using to determine what is moral or immoral that is outside of the bible.
The opinion of your fellow human has pretty much been the defining quality of morality. That opinion is often influenced by propaganda. Self interest also enters into the picture as does self image. There are most likely papers about it.
If the bible for example repeatedly says things like we should beat children with rods, and this was written in a time when beatings were common punishments such as Paul who said he received countless beatings, why would we dimiss those scriptures that some find morally repugnant? So, times have changed and morality changed with it.
But the bible didn’t change. So is the world providing this morality or is the biBlE? And I would ask the same of things like slaVery.
Do we get our morality from the bible?
Yes and from outside sources.Hi KW,
Being led by the Spirit produces the fruit of the Spirit.
Amen!
Ed
But shouldn’t it just be from the bible? Or can we pick and choose and take bits from the bible but other times ignore bits from the bible and take bits from the world?
Ed
(1)But shouldn’t it just be from the bible? (2)Or can we pick and choose and take bits from the bible but other times ignore bits from the bible and take bits from the world?
Hi David
Both of your questions are subjective
1) The problem is: One will claim something is
from the bible when they ARE picking and choosing.
It should be from a complete understanding of the bible.2) Here is an example of my point…
“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father,
or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city,
and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is
stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die:” (Deut 21:18-21)
1) Shouldn’t this be done it just be from the bible? (ref. John 8:11)
2) “The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached,
and every man presseth into it” (Luke 16:16)_______________
God bless
Ed JHi David,
Why have some states outlawed the death penalty?
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _______________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODYes Ed. You can argue that the law was done away with. So I am not speaking of the law.
And I don’t understand why you asked about the death penalty. If you are wondering where I’ve been for the past 2 years, it has been studying the history of violence (as a marker of morality) and based on the trend, the death penalty will be abolished from the globe in the next 20 or so years. The U.S. Is very far behind on this, as it is on many things.
My answer to why some states are outlawing the death penalty and indeed why violence has been decreasing over time, is probably nothing like you would expect, would take 15 pages to explain the way I would like, and won’t match the answer you would like.If you are arguing that states are removing the death penalty because of the scriptures, I would wonder how yo are attempting to make that case.
My question is essentially:
Where do we get our morality from?
Do we begin with the bible and base our opinion of right and wrong on what the bible says?
Or do we start with our own ideas and then find scriptures to match and take anything that disagrees and say it is figurative?
Hi David,
Good to hear you are well and Glad to see you back.
Chatting with you is quite refreshing compared to those who accuse!Why have some states outlawed the death penalty?
My point is: to illustrate where we get our morality.Do we get our morality from the bible? Yes and from outside sources.
Thank you for confirming my words!
“Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I the LORD that
maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men
backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant,and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited;
and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof” (Isaiah 44:24-26)“YHVH is GOD” (Joshua 22:34)
There is no doubt that in totally free societies or democratic rule societies our morality is based upon what we all agree is acceptable to make us feel more comfortable or safe….which is why in America homosexuality has increased and people’s acceptance of homosexuality in America has skyrocketed to the point of being extremely popular even in the pulpit.
Where you have religious people their morality may start from a biblical basis but that is often too harsh for the community at large in regards to biblical punishments, of course those biblical punishments were not put in place to actually punish anyone, the point was to create harsh punishment that would deter immoral behavior but as is often the case with society, the more immoralty that becomes acceptable the punishment decreases.
In regards to violence it is usually seen as reprehensible because of the personally terrifying nature of it. People don’t want violence upon them and this is why most Christians especially will purge all the violent scripture out of their conscience and manufacture a violence free God of course this view is unbiblical as the Bible is filled with violence even God sanctioned violence
Adultery is so commonplace in America no one even considers it immoral it has turned more in the category of “it just happened” or perhaps “We were drunk”
it is now that when a man comes in and finds his wife committing adultery he is punished for any violent responseHi BD,
God did not tell muslims to fight Christians and Jews.
The Christians have on more than one occasion tried to annihilate the Jews did God tell them to do it? Look at your Christian writings
379 A.D.
Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: “The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them.” He was called the Bishop with the Golden Tongue. St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.You seem to want to say what God does and does not do….although today Christians and Jews appear to be more friendly towards one another way before Muhammad look at Christian thought towards Jews
My question is essentially:
Where do we get our morality from?
Do we begin with the bible and base our opinion of right and wrong on what the bible says?
Or do we start with our own ideas and then find scriptures to match and take anything that disagrees and say it is figurative?
Hi David,
Which came first the chicken or the egg? …Our opinion is our own ideas
_______________
God bless
Ed J
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
