Different approach

[martian]

I have been off this site (mostly) for some time. One of the frustrations I discovered was the never ending circle the posts seem to go in. Arguments and proofs go back and forth ith little change. With that in mind, I would like to discuss the Trinity from a non scriptural standpoint. I am not surprised that the arguments are still the same. The so called “proofs” people use are the same and nothing is changed or accomplished. I think there is a good reason for this. It is primarily due to the fact that scriptural proof has never worked to determine teaching. Because no one can agree or stick to an honest method to interpret scripture, all that is accomplished is opinion that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of the other party. I think there is an answer to part of this dilemma, though I doubt many have the guts to lay their doctrines on the alter to be truthfully tested. A secondary problem with the approach I am going to outline is that it requires a common sense approach. Most doctrinal people are not open to common sense. Thirdly – most people are not really interested in whether their doctrine works or not. They really are not concerned about what their doctrine does anything to help them be like Christ. It is more satisfying to the flesh to engage in intellectual debate then to really seek truth that changes ones character.

A few points to consider —-
1. Character is the standard by which we gauge a persons motives and intentions toward God and man.
2. Scripture is not the standard by which we will be judged nor the standard by which our Godliness will be gauged. Christ is the standard and how much we become like Him is the measure of our Godliness. Not because Christ is God, but because Christ is our example and the pattern son. The pattern for us to follow. He clearly demonstrated perfected humanity. Humanity with the character of God developed in Him. He demonstrated the correct motives and intentions toward both God and man.

Simply put scriptural interpretation is subject, first and foremost, not to hermeneutical principles, preconceived ideas or opinions, but rather to the character and plan of God in Christ. When one formulates a teaching/doctrine, the very first test is that of functionality. How does it function or work to help me complete the plan of God in my life or demonstrate how to achieve the character of God in me. In other words, how does it help me be like Christ?

In a nutshell becoming like Christ is the plan of God. Anything that makes Jesus a less viable example or demands that God change His character or attributes is outside of God’s plan. No matter how much “supposed” proof a person has, if it does these things it has to be wrong.

If one is to understand the plan of God from scripture it must be understood that God’s goal is to grow up sons and daughters like Christ. There are many Christians that sell the plan of God short by assuming that we can never really be like Christ or that it will be achieved in heaven and not on Earth. Most Christians cannot see really being like Christ because they think that means we can never sin. Sin is literally translated as missing the mark. Like an archer missing a target. Most sin is not inherently evil. (there are sins that are evil) Most sin is wrongly categorized as not living up to the standard of Christ in our behavior. Our behavior is based on our motives and intentions. The struggle then become one of changing our motive and intentions. Like Christ said “clean the inside of the cup first and the outside will clean itself”. Two people miss the mark. One is remorseful and commits to doing better. The other offers excuses, blames others, and is arrogant. Both have missed the mark (sin). One shows respect for his father’s torah the other tramples it underfoot. One shows maturity in attitude and is forgiven, the other shows lack of respect for his father words is immature and not forgiven. That which separate us from God is not behavior, but rather the attitude, motive or intention behind the behavior. Behavior is only an indicator or reflection of the motives that lie within.

The very point of Christ death on the cross was to wipe out our sins. ALL OUR SINS PAST PRSENT AND FUTURE. Our sins are as far as the East from the west and are no longer the object of concern. Being free from sin allows us to concentrate on the more important task of becoming like Christ in our character. This is also confirmed by the correct understanding of the Torah. The Torah was a teaching tool with basic guidelines on how to behave. The word/Torah is a governor or tutor to bring us to Christ. In other words a tool to help us to learn to be like Christ in character. When a child broke the father’s Torah he was not punished but taught and counseled how to do it better the next time. He was taught wisdom that would mold his character and thereby change his behavior. Only when a child’s attitude was disrespectful was the child punished. When a child showed an attitude to learn and a Godly sorrow at failing to complete the Torah, he showed good character. His motives to please his father and intentions to continue to do so were pleasing to God. For as long as the child continues to show this character and attitude toward God, he is perfect. The more circumstances under which the child shows this “perfect” attitude the more wisdom he learns and the more mature he becomes.

Unfortunately most Churches do not teach character development, but rather become sin police and ignor the motives and intentions that lie benieth. Quick to correct, they bully the body into their personal standard of “Godliness” and never deal with the inner man. This is easy to do because it requires little or no discernment or individual Godly judgment. It requires little teaching of wisdom. That is good for them because they cannot teach what they do not posses. It only requires authority given by man and a preconceived carnal standard of Godliness. (Of course there are those that assume an authority that God has not given)

Back to doctrines of Christ as human or God.
Christ learned obedience by what he suffered. He grew in stature before God and man.
Luke 2:52?And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Hebrews 5:8?Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

We too go through this maturing process =
Ephesians 4:13?until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

1 Peter 2:21?[ Christ Is Our Example ] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

1 Peter 5:10?After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

As the above verse in 1 Peter confirms, we are to follow in Christ steps. If Christ is in any part God, one must ask the question, did Christ make his steps by virtue of his humanity or his deity?
If you say Christ did anything that we cannot do or if his accomplishments are in any way due to deity, then you have only a partial example. A partial example leaves the entire question open for debate as to which of Christ accomplishments we can duplicate. AND YET — We are told that we are to come to the stature of the fullness of Christ and not to the partial example of Christ. How about “Greater things shall Ye (us) do” Greater then a God?

The entire question of Christ as our example combined with Christ being in any part God does not fit within the functional plan of God. If Christ is God or dual natured then we can never come to the fullness of the stature of Christ.

Several questions a person should ask of a doctrine are these.
Does the doctrine contradict the attributes of God?
Example: Does the d
octrine say that God can change from being a Spirit into something else? The one thing God cannot do is stop being God/Spirit.
Does the doctrine contradict the Character of God?
Example: Does the doctrine say or imply that God can sin? Does it conclude that Christ is fully God and fully man and can sin then God can sin?
Does the doctrine claim that Christ is our example and then make Christ into a Creature or position that we can never attain?

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
You say
“The very point of Christ death on the cross was to wipe out our sins. ALL OUR SINS PAST PRSENT AND FUTURE. Our sins are as far as the East from the west and are no longer the object of concern.”

Are all the sins of all forgiven already?

“Being free from sin allows us to concentrate on the more important task of becoming like Christ in our character. This is also confirmed by the correct understanding of the Torah. The Torah was a teaching tool with basic guidelines on how to behave. The word/Torah is a governor or tutor to bring us to Christ. In other words a tool to help us to learn to be like Christ in character.”

Does obedience to scripture make us like Christ?

I thought Christ IN US was our hope of glory.
I thought we needed to be reborn of his Spirit to be changed by that Spirit in us.

Do we do it all ourselves?
Can we save ourselves?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 10 2007,12:10)

Hi martian, You say “The very point of Christ death on the cross was to wipe out our sins. ALL OUR SINS PAST PRSENT AND FUTURE. Our sins are as far as the East from the west and are no longer the object of concern.” Are all the sins of all forgiven already? “Being free from sin allows us to concentrate on the more important task of becoming like Christ in our character. This is also confirmed by the correct understanding of the Torah. The Torah was a teaching tool with basic guidelines on how to behave. The word/Torah is a governor or tutor to bring us to Christ.  In other words a tool to help us to learn to be like Christ in character.” Does obedience to scripture make us like Christ? I thought Christ IN US was our hope of glory. I thought we needed to be reborn of his Spirit to be changed by that Spirit in us. Do we do it all ourselves? Can we save ourselves?

The sins of those that have accepted Christ as their saviour are already forgiven. All of them.

You ask>
Does obedience to scripture make us like Christ?
Being like Christ in character fullfills the scripturs. Th law (scriptue is a tutor to lead us to Christ. Children that have not developed the character of Christ need the rules to follow. More mature saints would do by their nature what is right.
Scripture did not fulfill Christ, Christ fulfilled them.

You say –
I thought Christ IN US was our hope of glory.
I thought we needed to be reborn of his Spirit to be changed by that Spirit in us.
What is diferent from what I said. I am talking bout concrete character building

You say –
Do we do it all ourselves?
Can we save ourselves?

reply –
Those is two of the silliest questions I have ever heard.

Of course we ar saved by Grace. None of us deserve salvation.
However we do make choices of our free will to accept God's grace and everything after that. We choose to listen to our father as He tries to teach us wisdom and by doing so develope character. God is there with the teaching. Our responsibility is to learn and keep our atitude as a loving child willing to learn.

[NickHassan]

Hi maqrtian,
Where is accepting Christ for salvation written?
Does following rules-external changes-change our character or only make us pharisees?

[Admin]

This is a duplicate discussion, so it will be closed.

The other discussion is in the Feedback forum.

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