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To All……the question here , is (the) law done away with. The definite article (the) is specific , it is specific about a particular then. Our translations show Paul as saying by the (works) of (the) Law. That would indicate the ten commandments because of the definite Article (the), however in the original text the article (the) is not there, this changes greatly the meaning of what Paul was talking about. If i say works of law, that is to say (HOW) Law itself works, If i were to say by works of (the) Law, that is specific to a particular set of laws, big difference. Paul never said the ten commandment laws were done away with at all, what he meant was (how law works) through the medium of fear a forced compliance, was what was taken away, not the commandments them self. Jesus Plainly said whosoever breaks the lest of these commandments and teaches others will be call (Least)in the kingdom of GOD.
The question has never been is the commandments of GOD done away with, the question Paul is addressing is (HOW THE ARE KEEP) is it by the way law works (forced compliance) of by the operation of Faith working through Love, which fulfills (ALL) the Law. The commandments of GOD are ETERNAL COMMANDMENTS the ARE the WAY LIFE of GOD WORKS. They will never be done away with EVER.
AGAIN THE QUESTION IS NOT (SHOULD WE) BUT (HOW) WE KEEP THEM. The gentiles who have not (the) law (ten commandments) (BUT) do the things contained in them (ten commandments) show (the) Law (ten commandments) written in their heart (BY) the Hand of GOD. Now does that look like they are done away with, NO in fact it is what GOD through his spirit (CREATES IN US) in order for us to truthfully keep them from the heart. The commandments of God will never be done away with, why would any want them to be. It the way the (LAW) worked that was done away with. Can't you people see that?
peace and love to you all……………….gene
G,
The ten commandments were not written in the hearts of men but the inverse law of love was.
Some remnants are visible in the gentiles who were not distracted by the written Law and live according to such love.Love covers many sins.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,11:31) Hi KW,
Where did Jesus and Paul say these things?
Both spent much time in discussion with the Jews about their law.
But neither applied the OT to gentiles as it is opposite to the new inner law of the Spirit-love.A lot of Jesus' teachings dealt with his interpretation of the law. Here is one.
Matthew 15:16-20(NIV) reads:
Quote “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. “Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' ”
I already point out where God prohibited Gentiles from engaging in sexual immorality in the Law of Mosses. Do I also have to point out where he also prohibited the other sins Jesus mentioned in this teaching.
You should remember that Jesus' listeners were Jews of the Early to mid First Century and not modern people of any nation. They would have been very familiar with the Law and thus known what Jesus was speaking of.
In this Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for following the ritual forms without actually obeying the ethics of the Law.
Here is where one place where Paul also speaks of disobedience of the Law of Mosses.
Colossians 3:5-10(NIV) reads:
Quote Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
We cannot say they did not use the Law of Moses though we can speak of their interpretation of it.
It is through living by the Spirit that you will do by nature the things required by the Law of Moses.
Hi K,
Yes Jesus discussed the Law frequently with the Jews.
It was their law and they questioned him about it and he answered them.
You cannot serve two masters so you must seek the Spirit and the new positive Laws will be taught to you.The schoolmaster of the OT law never was your master.
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 25 2009,17:23) Gal3:1–Oh foolish Galations, who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth. Did you recieve the Spirit by works of the law or by the hearing withfaith? Those under the works of the Law are under a curse! Why would anyone refuse the Truth and go back to the works of the Law? Matt5:17—Think not that I am come to (destroy–same greek word used, Luke9:12 that was translated, “lodge or stay in”) stay in the Law, but to fulfill (bring to full completion)!
Matt 11:13—all the law and the prophets prophesied UNTIL John—
Luke 16:16—the law and the prophets were UNTIL John, SINCE THEN the Kingdom of God is preached—
Gal 3:19—the law was added UNTIL the seed (Jesus) should come–
If you follow any part of the law you are responsible for following the whole law and the sacrifice of Jesus is of no effect! Now you all choose how you want to believe. Follow the masses who follow the law still and end in death/destruction or follow Jesus and be sanctified and cleansed through him by faith apart from works. No one will be justified by the Law! Beware if you are tithing by law or honoring a particular sabbath day. If so you better make the necessary sacrifices for cleansing by law! TK
You are taking literally what Paul meant figuratively since Paul also taught the Galatians to obey the commands of the Law by walking by the Spirit.Galatians 5:19-21(NIV) reads:
Quote The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
That list of sins is a list of actions banned under the Law of Moses. They are obviously still banned.
Hi K,
Obedience to the Jewish law now saves nobody.
Yes the law of love fulfills the spirit of that law.But you cannot be in charge and let the Spirit lead you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,01:37) Hi K,
Yes Jesus discussed the Law frequently with the Jews.
It was their law and they questioned him about it and he answered them.
You cannot serve two masters so you must seek the Spirit and the new positive Laws will be taught to you.The schoolmaster of the OT law never was your master.
I believe you are misunderstanding the purpose for which Jesus came, even though he clearly stated it by teaching “I come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it”.The Law of Moses is good in that it instructed us what to do in order to please God. It has one flaw in that it has no power to actually give us the ability to do as it commands. Jesus the anointed one is the remedy to that flaw. That is why he taught.
Matthew 11:28-30(NIV) reads:
Quote “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
In the Old Testament the same idea is expressed with these words.
Psalms 107:10-16(NIV):
Quote Some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,for they had rebelled against the words of God
and despised the counsel of the Most High.So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom
and broke away their chains.Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for men,for he breaks down gates of bronze and cuts through bars of iron.
and
Isaiah 61:1(NIV) reads:
Quote [The Year of the LORD's Favor ] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
Hi K,
Yes Jesus fulfilled the Law given to the Jews.
He was the perfect jew showing it could be fulfilled so that now for them it can be put to one side.
Now there is no longer Jew and gentile and all can be one in Christ, sons of Abraham and sons of God under the new inner law of love.TO All……….SIMPLY PUT THE LAW (TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOD) ARE NOT NOW OR EVER WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH, THEY ARE (FULFILLED ) BY THE SPIRIT (INTELLECT) OF LOVE THE GOD SHEDS AROUND IN OUR HEARTS, THAT LOVE DOES NOT DESTROY HIS COMMANDMENTS IT FULFILL THEM. Don't listen to false teachers who will tell you God's commandments are done away, God creates us to walk in all his laws as He did Jesus also. IMO
gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 26 2009,06:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,01:37) Hi K,
Yes Jesus discussed the Law frequently with the Jews.
It was their law and they questioned him about it and he answered them.
You cannot serve two masters so you must seek the Spirit and the new positive Laws will be taught to you.The schoolmaster of the OT law never was your master.
I believe you are misunderstanding the purpose for which Jesus came, even though he clearly stated it by teaching “I come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it”.The Law of Moses is good in that it instructed us what to do in order to please God. It has one flaw in that it has no power to actually give us the ability to do as it commands. Jesus the anointed one is the remedy to that flaw. That is why he taught.
Matthew 11:28-30(NIV) reads:
Quote “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
In the Old Testament the same idea is expressed with these words.
Psalms 107:10-16(NIV):
Quote Some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,for they had rebelled against the words of God
and despised the counsel of the Most High.So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom
and broke away their chains.Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for men,for he breaks down gates of bronze and cuts through bars of iron.
and
Isaiah 61:1(NIV) reads:
Quote [The Year of the LORD's Favor ] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
The Law was without fault it was and is perfect, Jesus fulfilled the Law without fault and he declared:Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:47-48The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luke 6:39-41Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:4-6 (in Context)Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 18:12-14 (in Context)Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
1 Kings 8:60-62G,
The Law remains and for those Jews who choose to submit to it rather than the Spirit it still commands.
But it cannot now be fulfilled as the standard is perfection.
But it was never a gentile Law.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,06:26) G,
The ten commandments were not written in the hearts of men but the inverse law of love was.
Some remnants are visible in the gentiles who were not distracted by the written Law and live according to such love.Love covers many sins.
Nick………What you don't understand is the ten commandments are a (WAY) of life, they are the very expression of Love, they are written in our hearts by the operation of GOD as scripture say they are, what do you suppose His commandments are, is it because you don't understand they are a (WAY) of Life and that life is of GOD, While we are not (justified) by the (WAY) (law) works, we certainly, if we have GOD”S Spirit (intellect) shed around in our Hearts are Keeping his commandments. Nick…you need to consider what Jesus said “whosoever breaks the least of these commandments and teaches men to, will be the least in the kingdom of GOD. Think about that Nick before you turn men away from God's commandments. IMOgene
G,
The covenant was with the Jews and you are not a jew are you?
You need to find the commandments of Jesus if you are of God.
Abide in the truth of scripture-thy words are truth-not your ideasQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,07:31) G,
The covenant was with the Jews and you are not a jew are you?
You need to find the commandments of Jesus if you are of God.
Abide in the truth of scripture-thy words are truth-not your ideas
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,07:31) G,
The covenant was with the Jews and you are not a jew are you?
You need to find the commandments of Jesus if you are of God.
Abide in the truth of scripture-thy words are truth-not your ideas
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,09:38) G,
Is 'thou shalt not kill' written in your heart to remind you not to do so?
it is, and thou shall not kill is written in scripture also, what is the difference, do you think his spirit would contradict, his word does not come back void.Nick……….yes it is, by the LOVE of GOD, it is written in our hearts, You thinking the love of God is against his Law is pure foolishness. Love fulfills the law. What bible are you reading? As i clearly showed you it is the (WORKS OF LAW) or (HOW LAW WORK)that that has been abolished, not the commandments they are eternal and never will be eliminated but full filled in all. It is a false teaching to say GOD'S commandments are don away with. Jesus said who so ever breakers the least of these commandment and teach other to shall be call least in the hangdog of GOD. But whosoever teaches them and does them shall be called great in the kingdom of GOD. Nick i beginning to think you just want to argue.
gene
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote The Law was without fault it was and is perfect, Jesus fulfilled the Law without fault and he declared:
It sounds like you got wrapped up in the letter of my words and missed the intent(spirit) behind them. If you reread what I wrote the “flaw” I mentioned in the Law of Moses was that it did not fix a flaw that existed in human beings. It was not meant to fix that fault since that was left for the Spirit to do when Jesus the Anointed One came and sealed the second covenant by his blood.. I hopes that clarifies what I meant.
Nick Hassan:
Quote The Law remains and for those Jews who choose to submit to it rather than the Spirit it still commands.
You persist in misunderstanding what is written.
Acts 21:20(NIV) reads:
Quote When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
So you sit there stating one thing while Scripture explicitly states many thousands of Jews both believed and were zealous for the Law.
In this it is thus clear that you are putting your traditions before the word of God.
Acts 21:21(NIV) reads:
Quote They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
Still speaking of those Jews that believe is Jesus the Anointed One James describes their concerns to Paul. Their concern being that Paul was teaching Jews to turn away from the Law of Moses. Once more it is explicit.
Acts 21:23-24(NIV) reads:
Quote so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
So the solution of the “leadership” is that Paul should obey the Law of Moses in a way for the believers among the Jews to see.
It certainly looks like a lot of obedience to the Law by those that are also believing.
Nick Hassan:
Quote The covenant was with the Jews and you are not a Jew are you?
That is what I too thought until just recently but then God opened my eyes while I was reading the Law of Mosses.
Leviticus 24:22(NIV) reads:
Quote You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.' “
So God explicitly states that the Law of Moses applies to both the alien and the Hebrew. We can say it only applies to those living in the lands of the 12 tribes of Israel but we also have Jonah who went and preached a message of obedience to the law to a Gentile land. I will agree that the Law of Moses makes it clear that only some laws apply to Gentiles and the rest are customs God gave to the Hebrew people and in some case especially excluded Gentiles.
The believing Jews in Jerusalem were most likely aware of this and so did not hold the Gentiles to the customs God gave to the Hebrew people.
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