Did many of the jewish sages

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Did many of the Jewish Sages of the Talmud believe that Yeshua was the Messiah?

Here are some very interesting quotes from the Talmud, indicating that they certainly encoded strikingly revealing messages alluding to Yeshua being the Messiah. I will provide a few quotes, but there are many many more….

Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 99c
“R. Hillel says there will be no Messiah for Israel, because they have enjoyed him already in the days of Hezekiah [sod]. Said Rav. Joseph, may God pardon R. Hillel. When was Hezekiah? In the first house [sod], but Zechariah (9:9) prophesied in THE SECOND HOUSE [peshat] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout O daughter of Jerusalem; Behold thy King cometh unto thee; He is just and being YESHUA (salvation) [peshat]; lowly, and riding on an ass, and upon a colt, the foal of an ass.’“

Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 97b
“All we need to do is t'shuvah and the Messiah son of David will come, All the predestined dates for the Redemption have passed [through the Messiah son of Joseph who was slain], and what matters now depends only on repentance and good deeds.”

Midrash Rabbah (Ruth 2:14)
“He is speaking of the King Messiah: “Come hither” draw near to the throne and “dip thy morsel in the vinegar,” this relates to the chastisements as it is said, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.”

Talmud Bavli, Sukkah 25a
“One said that the eulogy will be for the Messiah son of Joseph who has been killed, that is why the mourning will be so bitter, as it is written: They will look toward me, the one they have stabbed; they will mourn over him as one mourns over an only his only child. The death of God’s anointed is certainly cause for great grief.”

Midrash Tanhuma, Parasha Toldot,
“Who art thou, O great mountain?” (Zech. 4:7) This refers to King Messiah. And why does he call him the “great mountain?” Because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, “My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly.” He will be higher than Abraham who said, “I raise high my hand unto HaShem” (Gen. 14:22), lifted up above Moses, to whom it is said, “Lift it up into thy bosom” (Num. 11:12), loftier than the ministering angels, of whom it is written, “Their wheels were lofty and terrible” (Ezek. 1:18). And out of whom does he come forth? Out of David.

Talmud Bavli, Sukkah 52a
“The Rabbis have taught; The Holy One, blessed be He, will say to Messiah son of David, may he be revealed soon in our day!; “Ask of Me anything, and I shall give it to you, for it is written, HaShem said unto me, You are my son, this day have I begotten you, ask of Me and I will give the nations for your inheritance (Psalms 2:7-8)” And when he will see that Messiah son of Joseph has been slain, he will say before Him: “Master of the World! I ask nothing of you except life! God will say to him: “Even before you said, ‘life,’ your father David prophesied about you as it is written, He asked for life, You had given it him. His glory is great through your YESHUA (salvation). (Psalms. 21:4-5)

[Elizabeth]

asher…

Very few believed it then, and very few believe it today; that will all change in the near future.

Georg

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,08:11)

asher… Very few believed it then, and very few believe it today; that will all change in the near future. Georg

Thats not what it looks like here. You would be shocked if you knew how many have believed it all along and do today as well.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,00:35)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,08:11) asher… Very few believed it then, and very few believe it today; that will all change in the near future. Georg Thats not what it looks like here. You would be shocked if you knew how many have believed it all along and do today as well.

Welcome, but how do you know what you are saying is true. Some Jew's did become Christians then,and some are still doing so today. Especially when they meet a Woman that wants to keep Her religion, and so they convert.
Irene

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 28 2010,00:50)

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,00:35) Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,08:11) asher… Very few believed it then, and very few believe it today; that will all change in the near future. Georg Thats not what it looks like here. You would be shocked if you knew how many have believed it all along and do today as well. Welcome, but how do you know what you are saying is true.  Some Jew's did become Christians then,and some are still doing so today.  Especially when they meet a Woman that wants to keep Her religion, and so they convert. Irene

Hi.

I dont have proof that they did in those days, but their writings and teachings were interestingly striking in that there is certainly something going on there.

Today I know, because I have met quite a few, and have talked to quite a few who know others who do as well.

None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews, there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it.

[GeneBalthrop]

Asher………..There is certainly a growing movement of Messianic Jews in the country I know several . Unfortunately some follow the TRINITARIAN and PREEXISTENCE form of “Christianity”. But i think most do not, at least the one i know do not.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[942767]

Hi Asher:

You say:

Quote

None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews, there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it.

Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law? Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way.

The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

This is what the Apostle Paul had to say:

Quote

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn]

Love in Christ,
Marty

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 28 2010,01:52)

Asher………..There is certainly a growing movement of Messianic Jews in the country I know several .  Unfortunately some follow the TRINITARIAN and PREEXISTENCE form of “Christianity”.  But i think most do not, at least the one i know do not. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Im not meaning Messianics, Im talking about Orthodox and Hasidic. That is a mindblower for many.

Shalom

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,11:21)

Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty

HI there…

I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life.

Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine.

Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town.

These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee

Romans (Rominim) 2:13
“because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.”

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.”

Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law.

The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah.

The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be.

Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly.

Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6
“And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts?

Lets see what the scriptures say….

Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5
“And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.”

Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law?

Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law.

Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it.

James (Yamei) 2:17
“Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.”

What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says…

Romans (Rominim) 7:12
“Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good.”

Yeshua warns about lawlessness

Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23
“Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah…

Daniel 7:25
“And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

Yeshua said still “If you
love me, keep the commandments.”

Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.”

Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.”

Paul also said “We establish the Torah.”

[942767]

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,14:17)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,11:21) Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most Hi gh, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.”

Hi Asher:

You say:

Quote

Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine.

Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead.

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church.

And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved? It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,15:12)

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,14:17) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,11:21) Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.” Hi Asher: You say: Quote Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved?  It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins. Love in Christ, Marty

Hello brother,

Well Im glad you acknowledge faith without works is dead and that faith without boasts is correct and that grace is intact.

It is true that Yeshua took away our sins, but just because he came and did the right thing and taught us to do the right thing, doesnt mean that he did that so that we dont have to do the right thing anymore.

The church, is all of Israel, Jew and Gentile.

There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will). The Bible tells us that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the Jews grafted into something else. And yes, there were Jews who were broken off, but will be grafted back in…

Yeshua, the Apostles and the Netzari Moshiachim HaDerekh (the original sect that followed Yeshua) never converted to another religion. There was no such instruction to do so, not in the Bible and not in history.

A person can be a Torah observant Jew and still be saved by the blood that washed away our sins.

Peace and Love,
Ash

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

above where I said “It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will)” I mean that the Gentile coming into the faith didnt need to physically be circumcised, but had the choice to do so if he wished to. Salvation is not dependant upon physical conversion.

[terraricca]

hi asher

why it was asked from the Jews to repent ? ,and if requested from the gentiles why should they repent?

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 09 2010,02:29)

hi asher why it was asked from the Jews to repent ? ,and if requested from the gentiles why should they repent?

HI….

all people have to repent, as we are always sinning.

[terraricca]

asher

Jews ad the law that they transgress,the gentiles ad no law under wish the have a covenant.

so Jews ad to repent this is what John the Baptist was saying,but the gentiles to my understanding ad only to learn and apply the new acquired faith.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 09 2010,05:36)

asher Jews ad the law that they transgress,the gentiles ad no law under wish the have a covenant. so Jews ad to repent  this is what John the Baptist was saying,but the gentiles to my understanding ad only to learn and apply the new acquired faith.

Not true, the New Covenant contains the same Torah LAW that was previous. The Torah is the conditions of all the covenants. Gentiles who are grafted are still subject to the Law. Whether they wish to remain Noachides or want to become Jews, they are still obligated to keep the Law.

[942767]

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,15:12) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,14:17) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,11:21) Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away fro m me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.” Hi Asher: You say: Quote Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved?  It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins. Love in Christ, Marty Hello brother, Well Im glad you acknowledge faith without works is dead and that faith without boasts is correct and that grace is intact. It is true that Yeshua took away our sins, but just because he came and did the right thing and taught us to do the right thing, doesnt mean that he did that so that we dont have to do the right thing anymore. The church, is all of Israel, Jew and Gentile. There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will). The Bible tells us that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the Jews grafted into something else. And yes, there were Jews who were broken off, but will be grafted back in… Yeshua, the Apostles and the Netzari Moshiachim HaDerekh (the original sect that followed Yeshua) never converted to another religion. There was no such instruction to do so, not in the Bible and not in history. A person can be a Torah observant Jew and still be saved by the blood that washed away our sins. Peace and Love, Ash

Hi Asher:

I am not sure, then what you mean by saying that a Jew does not have to convert.

I agree that the church is Israel, which is Jew and gentile. We are one in the Lord.

And so, I guess the question that I have is, do you believe that a Torah observant Jew, in the present era, has to believe that Yeshua is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead, and having believed God's testimony regarding what he has done for humanity through Yeshua, do they need to follow this with water baptism to be saved?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2010,09:31)

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,15:12) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,14:17) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,11:21) Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.” Hi Asher: You say: Quote Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved?  It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins. Love in Christ, Marty Hello brother, Well Im glad you acknowledge faith without works is dead and that faith without boasts is correct and that grace is intact. It is true that Yeshua took away our sins, but just because he came and did the right thing and taught us to do the right thing, doesnt mean that he did that so that we dont have to do the right thing anymore. The church, is all of Israel, Jew and Gentile. There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will). The Bible tells us that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the Jews grafted into something else. And yes, there were Jews who were broken off, but will be grafted back in… Yeshua, the Apostles and the Netzari Moshiachim HaDerekh (the original sect that followed Yeshua) never converted to another religion. There was no such instruction to do so, not in the Bible and not in history. A person can be a Torah observant Jew and still be saved by the blood that washed away our sins. Peace and Love, Ash Hi Asher: I am not sure, then what you mean by saying that a Jew does not have to convert. I agree that the church is Israel, which is Jew and gentile.  We are one in the Lord. And so, I guess the question that I have is, do you believe that a Torah observant Jew, in the present era, has to believe that Yeshua is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead, and having believed God's testimony regarding what he has done for humanity through Yeshua, do they need to follow this with water baptism to be saved? Love in Christ, Marty

What I mean is, a Jew is already home, what would a Jew convert to when he or she is already an Israelite, already a Jew? The New Covenant was about grafting in the lost tribes of Ephrayim back into the fold and about grafting in the Gentiles into the fold. It was the Gentile who had to convert via heart.

The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does not believe in Yeshua will only believe when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, only then will HaShem lift the veil over their eyes as it was HaShem who blinded them from knowing the Messiah. It all depends on what the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which has yet to happen. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does believe in Yeshua, is all set.

Baptism is something that a Jew does everyday, it is called Tevillah in Hebrew. Now, being immersed in the mikveh in the name of Yeshua, that would obviously be done once they believed in Yeshua.

But salvation is not dependent upon baptism-tevilah.

Peace always
Ash

[NickHassan]

Hi ASH,
Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.
Various ritualistic washings do not complete the command of God.
There is no longer jew nor gentile but all become one in Christ

The book of Acts has at least 15 examples of God's command being obeyed by the apostles.
Nothing has changed

[Elizabeth]

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Feb. 09 2010,14:11)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2010,09:31) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,15:12) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,14:17) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,11:21) Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and goo d.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.” Hi Asher: You say: Quote Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved?  It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins. Love in Christ, Marty Hello brother, Well Im glad you acknowledge faith without works is dead and that faith without boasts is correct and that grace is intact. It is true that Yeshua took away our sins, but just because he came and did the right thing and taught us to do the right thing, doesnt mean that he did that so that we dont have to do the right thing anymore. The church, is all of Israel, Jew and Gentile. There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will). The Bible tells us that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the Jews grafted into something else. And yes, there were Jews who were broken off, but will be grafted back in… Yeshua, the Apostles and the Netzari Moshiachim HaDerekh (the original sect that followed Yeshua) never converted to another religion. There was no such instruction to do so, not in the Bible and not in history. A person can be a Torah observant Jew and still be saved by the blood that washed away our sins. Peace and Love, Ash Hi Asher: I am not sure, then what you mean by saying that a Jew does not have to convert. I agree that the church is Israel, which is Jew and gentile.  We are one in the Lord. And so, I guess the question that I have is, do you believe that a Torah observant Jew, in the present era, has to believe that Yeshua is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead, and having believed God's testimony regarding what he has done for humanity through Yeshua, do they need to follow this with water baptism to be saved? Love in Christ, Marty What I mean is, a Jew is already home, what would a Jew convert to when he or she is already an Israelite, already a Jew? The New Covenant was about grafting in the lost tribes of Ephrayim back into the fold and about grafting in the Gentiles into the fold. It was the Gentile who had to convert via heart. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does not believe in Yeshua will only believe when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, only then will HaShem lift the veil over their eyes as it was HaShem who blinded them from knowing the Messiah. It all depends on what the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which has yet to happen. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does believe in Yeshua, is all set. Baptism is something that a Jew does everyday, it is called Tevillah in Hebrew. Now, being immersed in the mikveh in the name of Yeshua, that would obviously be done once they believed in Yeshua. But salvation is not dependent upon baptism-tevilah. Peace always Ash

Hello and Welcome! I happened to know some Jew's also and they do keep the Law and all the washings and rituals. They are the some Jew's of yesterday when Jesus walked this earth. How do I know? Because our Son owned a Jewish Bakery and the Rabbi came and inspected everything. You could not even turn on an Oven with out Him doing it. I could not use a S.O.S. Pad to clean because it is not Kosher. I told Him I don't want to eat the Pad. Needless to say our Son did not make it there. So you are wrong, they are still very, very strict in the their Law and very Kosher. When I wanted to go take the Lady that owned it before our Son out to eat to a Restaurant, we had to go to one that had only Kosher foods. No Mc. Donald's. They are very strict as far as the Torah is concerned. I have no idea where you get that information from that they are Christians, they are not. Unless they convert. Not to many do, here were we live. There is a difference of keeping the Law of the Old Testament then what we are under. We are under the New Covenant in Luke 22:20
Math. 22:37-40 is the great commandment. We don't have to keep the Sabbath it was a sign between God and the Children of Israel.
Exodus 31:16-17
That is the difference between us and the Jewish People. Also Jesus magnified the Law on the Sermon on the Mount. We keep the Law by Faith and not the letter of the Law, like the Jewish People do…
Peace and Love Irene

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