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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,10:30) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 11 2009,10:00) Quote (thethinker @ June 11 2009,04:30) bodhitharta said: Quote I am not anti-trinitarian, if it were true I would be the first to promote it as the truth. You lost me!
bodhitharta said:
Quote Hebrews 1:7-9 (King James Version) 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Please state what your point is in reference to Christ being anointed above His companions.
bodhitharta said:
Quote Notice it says above thy fellows. It also says that God anointed him but what you might not know is that Paul is quoting a scripture that applied to someone else. Psalm 45…. The Psalm spoke prophetically of Christ the GREATER KING. You have admitted yourself that Jesus was anointed above His companions. This means He was the GREATER king.
bodhitharta said:
Quote How many times have we seen here that Jesus must be God because people worshipped him and he didn't prevent them? The answer is all kings were worshipped and as you can see from this psalms they were often called God.
Your commentary is totally out of the context of Hebrews 1. In verse 6 we see that the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. How many old testament kings were worshipped by angels? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada! All men BOWED when angels appeared to them.
You missed verse 10 also. The Father is still speaking to the Son saying:
Quote You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth. And the heavens are the work of your hands. How many old testament kings laid the foundations of the earth and could say that the heavens were the work of his own hands? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada!
It is VERY CLEAR that the name “God” in reference to the Son in verse 8 means much more than it did in reference to old testament kings.
thinker
You say it was a prophecy but you only apply a very small part of the psalm why not apply all of it? Also, the psalmist says that he is talking about the King he is writing about that he worshipped at that time, why don't you believe that?(3) And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #34)Now this scripture that comes from The Glorious Quran says that God told the angels to bow to Adam and they all did except for Iblis(Satan)
Keep in mind Satan did not bow to Jesus either so this Quran makes clear that Satan is your avowed enemy and God made mankind to be the crown jewel of creation.
Hi BD,
So if your book is that of a prophet why do the writings speak of historical things?
First of all let me just mention the fact that a prophet is not a fortune teller and the word prophet means to Profess or to tell.Arabic al-nabiy, and sometimes also al-rasul, prop. “the messenger”
All the books of the bible are historical but today we interpret from it what we like but the Quran also has last day prophetic interpretations just like the bible there is the return of Jesus Christ who will defeat the anti-Christ.
There is apostasy and people turning away from the truth in the end times.
The only difference is that the Quran clarifies many things that are not in the bible for instance the bible does not show Adam repenting but the Quran does.
The Quran explains many things like why the people worshipped the golden calf which in the Quran is explain that God had Moses perform a miracle in which he used the thigh of a Calf golden in color to bring a man back to life. He struck the dead man with the thigh and he was raised from the dead the people in their ignorance thought the cow was divine just like the time when Moses had the bronze snake on the pole that when people looked upon it would be saved those people because of their ignorance worshipped the bronze snake.
People love to worship objects that is why many christians have no problem worshipping the cross, statues of saints, rosary beads, the pope and with trinitarians One God is not even enough you have to have the God you can see plus the God you can't see plus add another God, well blessed those who don't see and still believe.
Hi BD,
Jesu warned us about false prophets but you assure us this does not apply because you can see some vague similarities?The Mormons say similar things and even copy parts of Ezekiel into their book and they are a nonsense.
Why does our Teacher need additions to his words when not abiding in them is dangerous for us?[2jn]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,11:15) Hi BD,
Jesu warned us about false prophets but you assure us this does not apply because you can see some vague similarities?The Mormons say similar things and even copy parts of Ezekiel into their book and they are a nonsense.
Why does our Teacher need additions to his words when not abiding in them is dangerous for us?[2jn]
I understand where you are coming from but just remember that half of the NT is not even based upon what Jesus taught.Paul taught the Gospel of Jesus but Jesus taught the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.
The Quran does not add to the words of Jesus it simply makes clear the entire will of God as Jesus taught it. We don't have that much in the way of the entire teachings of Jesus but the Quran makes clear that God has sent messengers with His same message since time began and Adam was not only the first man he was the First prophet but then again actually God was the first prophet when He prophesied about the tree of good and evil.
Actually, concerning the mormons, they call themselves latter day saints and the truth is that the latter day saints are those of apostasy.
Think about it no Christian group has taken God as a man more seriously they don't just say that Jesus is God they say that the Father is a Man too and he has a Father too and so on and so on. It's like the ultimate Apostasy and I'm glad because it makes me know that things are all on schedule.
Islam says that God is The ONE and ONLY it is forbidden to take prophets and messengers as you do God Almighty.
(4) They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #31)but, yet in another verse it says:
(7) And that which Allah gave as spoil unto His messenger from them, ye urged not any horse or riding-camel for the sake thereof, but Allah giveth His messenger lordship over whom He will. Allah is Able to do all things.
( سورة الحشر , Al-Hashr, Chapter #59, Verse #6)In other words it is God that gives lordship to those whom he chooses but ultimately there is THE LORD GOD who is above all.
Hi BD,
He did not give us more men to add to Jesus' words.
THe Spirit given to him and through him to us does not speak of His own initiative.
The Spirit reminds us of the teachings of the spirit of Prophecy, the word of God speaking through the prophets and in the testimony of Jesus.
Jn14-16, 1 Peter 1, Rev19,Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,12:36) Hi BD,
He did not give us more men to add to Jesus' words.
THe Spirit given to him and through him to us does not speak of His own initiative.
The Spirit reminds us of the teachings of the spirit of Prophecy, the word of God speaking through the prophets and in the testimony of Jesus.
Jn14-16, 1 Peter 1, Rev19,
Yes, but Paul did not meet Jesus and yet you consider his words as the word of God, yes?How is Paul better than Muhammad?
HiBD,
Paul did, on the way to Damascus.
He said it was longer he that lived but Christ lived in him.
Paul spoke and healed and raised the dead in the power of God given to himHi BD,
Please tell us of the glorious fruits and gifts God manifested through your leader.
The kingdom of God is not of words but of power.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,13:09) Hi BD,
Please tell us of the glorious fruits and gifts God manifested through your leader.
The kingdom of God is not of words but of power.
There is no more greater realization of power than for Muhammad to convert an entire polytheistic part of the world to be the most prominent monotheistic religion in the world, that is the greatest Miracle of all time.You already know that most of Christianity is Polytheistic, Muhammad did what was commanded by God and crushed their Idols and condemned the worship of anything other than God. Go into a Mosque and see what is on the walls or what pictures there are you will find out quickly that the worship of God is the only acceptable practice.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,13:57) Hi BD,
So Islam is the fruit?
It is not among those shown in Gal5?
Gal.522But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity,
23meekness, self-control: against such things there is no law.
Truly if you have ever met practicing muslims you would immediately recognize the fruits of the spirit.
So BD,
Tell us of the healings and resurrections amongst the works of your leader and his followers.Quote (Gene @ June 07 2009,04:37) Quote (Paladin @ June 06 2009,01:38) And you don't see this as an attack? I certainly do not want to accuse you unjustly. It still looks like an attack to me. I gave you a simple example of where the commentators are wrong, with their use of “pros ton” followed by an accusative, and you totally ignore it, make no effort to deny, explain, or otherwise enlighten my alleged ignorance, just attack the messenger. To make it worse, you deny it is an attack, then try to use subtlety to turn it to your own purpose with “I guess I have my answer.”
What was the question? Why was it not posted? You are making it up as you go along, and trying to make me look bad because you cannot deal with the issues raised in my post.
The issue of “pros ton” followed by the accusative, for just one example, is used by trinitarians as a proof that Jesus is God, and John 1:1 proves it. Well, John 1:1 proves no such thing because of “pros ton” followed by the accusative. It is an empty argument.
Instead of responding to the issue, you question my credentials. My credence is establsihed in the truth of my post. Or do you not know what “credential” means? It is that which establishes credence.
Test my post against the scriptures, and point out my errors, do not just parrot commentaries and doctrines of men and creeds to me. Tell me “It is wrong because…” and give me the reason it is wrong, instead of this sophomoric whining.
As for all that “stuff” you list asking about Greek words, I can sit here with a Greek grammar and a lexicon and play your “Scholarship” game all day long and you will have succeeded in sidetracking my argument. I will not add to your truancy.
Either respond to the issues, or do not. I really do not care which you do. It is just that I would spare you the humiliation you are doing to yourself, but it is up to you.
As for your remark about Paul's credentials, it was Paul who thanked God for putting this treasure in earthen vessels. and Peter and James and John certainly had no “scholarship credentials.” They had a common inspiration. And it is the same inspiration people have today who are in the spirit and power of the Holy Spirit, which was promised to all those who seek God's truth.
Instead of “fussin” over scholarship which is contrary to proper exegesis, why don't you deal with the issues?
Do I “exalt myself to their status of being able to pen scriptures?” No! The Holy Spirit exalts me to the status of being able to comprehend scripture when I read and study it with prayer and humility. Do you have a problem with that?
Paladin………..Amen brother. Please don't get discouraged here, there are those brothers and sisters who do agree with you here and those who are learning from you posts, you are strengthening the true brothers and sisters, let the spirit continue to speak through you. IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
What a magnificent post.
So well written. One can sense the Spirit of God even in a blessed repremand.
Paladin I don't know you but I can sure sense the Spirit you are of. This website means of sharing the Gospel could be so inlightning if used to build one another up in the good news of Christ. Sharing what God has done for each person and what the New Creation human really is energises the Soul and heals the body. There are so many doctrines built about Revelation I don't care to here any more.God bless you continually, TKQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,02:40) Quote (Paladin @ June 09 2009,08:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,11:46) Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”Matthew 14:27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; “IT is I” ; be not afraid.
Mark 6:50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: “IT IS I;” be not afraid.
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.
And here's another example:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that “IT IS I” myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.None of the scriptures you mention above use the Greek word “Autos” for “it”.
“It is”, ego eimi., Anyway if you say that “Autos” should be translated “It” then Luke 24:39 would read…
For they all saw “it” (autos), and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it” (autos), and saith unto “it” (autos), Be of good cheer: “it is” I (ego eimi); be not afraid.
This makes no sense. Context also dictates how a pronoun is to be translated.
This is not a Trinitarian argument, for even non-trinitarians disagree with you.
Blessings WJ
What part ofQuote
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.was too fast for you?
What part of
Quote
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.do you NOT understand?
Hi PDOh I see. When it is convenient you reference the Greek?
Sorry I guess I should have just accepted your interpretation and not the Translation or the Greek.
You are being so obviously stupid I hesitate to even respond to your rants. It is not, repeat NOT MY “interpretation.” I quoted word for word from the King James translation. Do you ever check what I post against the scriptures, or does your indoctrination kick in and you just spew without recourse to thought or research?
Quote
So since you believe that Jesus and the others are an “it” then tell me if this verse makes sense?I did not say Jesus and others are an “it.” I said the King James version TRANSLATES it that way. HELLO! ANYBODY HOME?
For they all saw “it”, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it”, and saith unto “it”, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.
“It” can be used for “idiomatic” phrases, but once you have determined the gender then you switch to “gender-specific pronouns.”
WJ[/quote]
Are you always this far off in your quotes? Or are you just baiting me?bodhitharta said:
Quote Also keep in mind that if Man was made in the image of God then why wouldn't a man who is reborn or anointed by God not have the angels worship him to the glory of God. bd,
Don't forget verse 10. The Father addressed the Son saying,Quote You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. .
Note verses 11-12 as well,
Quote They will perish, but You remain….And they shall be changed, but You are the same. When was it ever said of an angel or of an old testament king that they laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of their hands? When was it ever said to angels or old testament kings that when everything else perishes You remain unchanged”?
This is why the name “God” in reference to the Son CANNOT be equal to the word as it was used for angels and kings in the old testament. The name “God” in reference to the Son means SUPREME GOD!
blessings,
thinker
Thinker………..Read the Man of Sin, thread i posted Brother, and think about it. Please.
with much love and peace………………………………gene
Hi PD
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,10:40)
Hi PDOh I see. When it is convenient you reference the Greek?
Sorry I guess I should have just accepted your interpretation and not the Translation or the Greek.
Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) You are being so obviously stupid I hesitate to even respond to your rants. It is not, repeat NOT MY “interpretation.” I quoted word for word from the King James translation.
It’s not your interpretation? Then what is this…Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”
No one else here interprets or reads into the verses you quote as Jesus calling himself “It”, “it is I” doesn’t mean “I is an it”, does it? Yet you call me stupid! Usually insults like that are a sign of weakness!Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) Do you ever check what I post against the scriptures, or does your indoctrination kick in and you just spew without recourse to thought or research?
Indoctrination is all that you have presented here. You are indoctrinated aren’t you?Or are you just spouting off things you do not believe?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,10:40) So since you believe that Jesus and the others are an “it” then tell me if this verse makes sense? Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) I did not say Jesus and others are an “it.” I said the King James version TRANSLATES it that way. HELLO! ANYBODY HOME?
The KJV in no way infers Jesus as you say is claiming to be an it. That is your interpretation of the KJV.Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”
Does the KJV reference your words when you say a person is it? No that is your interpretation isn’t it?Where are you going with this anyway? This all seems to go back to the reference of your obscure translations of John 1:1-3.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,10:40) For they all saw “it”, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it”, and saith unto “it”, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. “It” can be used for “idiomatic” phrases, but once you have determined the gender then you switch to “gender-specific pronouns.”
WJ
Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) Are you always this far off in your quotes? Or are you just baiting me?
Not interested in baiting you at all!WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,15:24) So BD,
Tell us of the healings and resurrections amongst the works of your leader and his followers.
I'm not sure what you mean how would that prove anything?Allah(God) has allowed me to heal people before but that wouldn't mean much to you unless you believed that it was true.
Remember some in the day of Jesus accused him of having a demon but the fact is God has caused miracles to occur to all sorts of people in all sorts of religion even among atheists but weren't those miracles simply opportunities to see the hand of God and believe?
Hi BD,
So no real divine powers shown?
So starting an organisation that tries to reach out to God really is all you offer?There are plenty of them around but the Body of Christ is the place of safety. No one can come to the Father without the given mediator, Jesus Christ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 12 2009,04:26) Hi PD Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,10:40)
Hi PDOh I see. When it is convenient you reference the Greek?
Sorry I guess I should have just accepted your interpretation and not the Translation or the Greek.
Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) You are being so obviously stupid I hesitate to even respond to your rants. It is not, repeat NOT MY “interpretation.” I quoted word for word from the King James translation.
It’s not your interpretation? Then what is this…Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”
No one else here interprets or reads into the verses you quote as Jesus calling himself “It”, “it is I” doesn’t mean “I is an it”, does it? Yet you call me stupid! Usually insults like that are a sign of weakness!Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) Do you ever check what I post against the scriptures, or does your indoctrination kick in and you just spew without recourse to thought or research?
Indoctrination is all that you have presented here. You are indoctrinated aren’t you?Or are you just spouting off things you do not believe?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,10:40) So since you believe that Jesus and the others are an “it” then tell me if this verse makes sense? Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) I did not say Jesus and others are an “it.” I said the King James version TRANSLATES it that way. HELLO! ANYBODY HOME?
The KJV in no way infers Jesus as you say is claiming to be an it. That is your interpretation of the KJV.Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”
Does the KJV reference your words when you say a person is it? No that is your interpretation isn’t it?Where are you going with this anyway? This all seems to go back to the reference of your obscure translations of John 1:1-3.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,10:40) For they all saw “it”, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it”, and saith unto “it”, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. “It” can be used for “idiomatic” phrases, but once you have determined the gender then you switch to “gender-specific pronouns.”
WJ
Quote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) Are you always this far off in your quotes? Or are you just baiting me?
Not interested in baiting you at all!WJ
Hi PDQuote (Paladin @ June 11 2009,08:08) I did not say Jesus and others are an “it.” I said the King James version TRANSLATES it that way. HELLO! ANYBODY HOME? (WJ)
The KJV in no way infers Jesus as you say is claiming to be an it. That is your interpretation of the KJV.I will respond to you no more. You continue to twist what I said, into strawman arguments so you will gain some kind of advantage, but have not correctly nor fairly presented what I expressed in my post yet.
I did not say the KJV “INFERS” anything. I said it TRANSLATES it to read that way. And no, it is not my interpretation of the KJV. It is what the KJV says.
And thinker thinks you are “big leaguers” here? Why?
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