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Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”Matthew 14:27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; “IT is I” ; be not afraid.
Mark 6:50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: “IT IS I;” be not afraid.
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.
And here's another example:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that “IT IS I” myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.None of the scriptures you mention above use the Greek word “Autos” for “it”.
“It is”, ego eimi., Anyway if you say that “Autos” should be translated “It” then Luke 24:39 would read…
For they all saw “it” (autos), and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it” (autos), and saith unto “it” (autos), Be of good cheer: “it is” I (ego eimi); be not afraid.
This makes no sense. Context also dictates how a pronoun is to be translated.
This is not a Trinitarian argument, for even non-trinitarians disagree with you.
Blessings WJ
Paladin said:
Quote Even John the Baptist is called “it” as well as “he.” Mark 6:16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, “IT” is John, whom I beheaded: HE is risen from the dead. You have no idea nor sense, common or otherwise, as to the truth about pronouns in scripture.
Paladin,
So was John a person or some impersonal messenger?
You've lost me. Please visit the Geneva Bible thread I started. You overlooked some important facts.thanks,
thinker
Hi TT,
Despite your theological renderings you have missed the obvious.
There is no trinity god in our scripturesThinker……..I love you brother, but you are completely wrong about the TRINITY, Believe what Jesus plainly said (THOU) someone other then himself, are the (ONLY) no other, TRUE GOD. Come out of those false teachings brother, GO and read the man of sin, thread i posted maybe that will help brother, and think about it please.
with much love and Peace to you brother………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ June 09 2009,16:08) Thinker……..I love you brother, but you are completely wrong about the TRINITY, Believe what Jesus plainly said (THOU) someone other then himself, are the (ONLY) no other, TRUE GOD. Come out of those false teachings brother, GO and read the man of sin, thread i posted maybe that will help brother, and think about it please. with much love and Peace to you brother………………………….gene
Gene,
Have you visited the geneva bible thread I started? Paladin missed some very important points in it and other translations. And don't forget that he denies that both God and the Word are personal beings. Paladin is not only attacking trinitarianism here. He is also attacking your beliefs. Are you that blind? He says that YOUR God is an “it.”Paladin is anti-Christian. Yet you are letting that go just because he is anti-trinitarian. Where's your head man? Paladin is our common enemy!
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,11:46) Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”Matthew 14:27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; “IT is I” ; be not afraid.
Mark 6:50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: “IT IS I;” be not afraid.
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.
And here's another example:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that “IT IS I” myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.None of the scriptures you mention above use the Greek word “Autos” for “it”.
“It is”, ego eimi., Anyway if you say that “Autos” should be translated “It” then Luke 24:39 would read…
For they all saw “it” (autos), and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it” (autos), and saith unto “it” (autos), Be of good cheer: “it is” I (ego eimi); be not afraid.
This makes no sense. Context also dictates how a pronoun is to be translated.
This is not a Trinitarian argument, for even non-trinitarians disagree with you.
Blessings WJ
What part ofQuote
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.was too fast for you?
What part of
Quote
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.do you NOT understand?
Quote (thethinker @ June 09 2009,20:14) Quote (Gene @ June 09 2009,16:08) Thinker……..I love you brother, but you are completely wrong about the TRINITY, Believe what Jesus plainly said (THOU) someone other then himself, are the (ONLY) no other, TRUE GOD. Come out of those false teachings brother, GO and read the man of sin, thread i posted maybe that will help brother, and think about it please. with much love and Peace to you brother………………………….gene
Gene,
Have you visited the geneva bible thread I started? Paladin missed some very important points in it and other translations. And don't forget that he denies that both God and the Word are personal beings. Paladin is not only attacking trinitarianism here. He is also attacking your beliefs. Are you that blind? He says that YOUR God is an “it.”Paladin is anti-Christian. Yet you are letting that go just because he is anti-trinitarian. Where's your head man? Paladin is our common enemy!
thinker
I see truth has no place in your heart.I have not only NEVER said God is not a person, I have continually insisted he IS a person. The problem you are having is in insisting he is “three persons.”
God is a person, a being, one and only, singular and alone God.
If I say “It is God who claims he is one,” Do you have a problem with the use of the pronoun “it?” You will find a bible full of that exact correct usage of pronouns. WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?
YOUR PROBLEM comes from the fact you know nothing of the use of pronouns in scripture, and you thought you know it all.
Stop with your lies about what I believe. I will tell you what I believe, all you have to do is ask. Just do not usurp the thread with off-subject questions.
Quote (Paladin @ June 09 2009,08:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2009,11:46) Quote (Paladin @ June 08 2009,18:46)
Jesus is a person, and when he speaks in the first person singular, he says “I” when referencing himself. And he calls himself “it.” Of course a person is “it.”Matthew 14:27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; “IT is I” ; be not afraid.
Mark 6:50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: “IT IS I;” be not afraid.
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.
And here's another example:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that “IT IS I” myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.None of the scriptures you mention above use the Greek word “Autos” for “it”.
“It is”, ego eimi., Anyway if you say that “Autos” should be translated “It” then Luke 24:39 would read…
For they all saw “it” (autos), and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it” (autos), and saith unto “it” (autos), Be of good cheer: “it is” I (ego eimi); be not afraid.
This makes no sense. Context also dictates how a pronoun is to be translated.
This is not a Trinitarian argument, for even non-trinitarians disagree with you.
Blessings WJ
What part ofQuote
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.was too fast for you?
What part of
Quote
I REFERENCE THE TRANSLATION, NOT THE GREEK. This is the KJV.do you NOT understand?
Hi PDOh I see. When it is convenient you reference the Greek?
Sorry I guess I should have just accepted your interpretation and not the Translation or the Greek.
So since you believe that Jesus and the others are an “it” then tell me if this verse makes sense?
For they all saw “it”, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with “it”, and saith unto “it”, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.
“It” can be used for “idiomatic” phrases, but once you have determined the gender then you switch to “gender-specific pronouns.”
WJ
Paladin said to thinker:
Quote YOUR PROBLEM comes from the fact you know nothing of the use of pronouns in scripture, and you thought you know it all. I took two years of Greek in College. I have a sound working knowledge of Greek pronouns. How did you acquire your credentials?
Paladin said:
Quote Stop with your lies about what I believe. I will tell you what I believe, all you have to do is ask. Just do not usurp the thread with off-subject questions. Okay, please enlighten me. Explain why you have taken so much time and space on this board saying that God is an “it” if you really believe He is a personal being. What's this all about?
Paladin said:
Quote You have no idea nor sense, common or otherwise, as to the truth about pronouns in scripture. Then he said:
Quote Even John the Baptist is called “it” as well as “he.” Mark 6:16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, “IT” is John, whom I beheaded: HE is risen from the dead. Oh I get it now. You're really saying this: +%#2 hw%V&^&y8xfk[ &990vr56c%RB&^*er
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 09 2009,20:14) Quote (Gene @ June 09 2009,16:08) Thinker……..I love you brother, but you are completely wrong about the TRINITY, Believe what Jesus plainly said (THOU) someone other then himself, are the (ONLY) no other, TRUE GOD. Come out of those false teachings brother, GO and read the man of sin, thread i posted maybe that will help brother, and think about it please. with much love and Peace to you brother………………………….gene
Gene,
Have you visited the geneva bible thread I started? Paladin missed some very important points in it and other translations. And don't forget that he denies that both God and the Word are personal beings. Paladin is not only attacking trinitarianism here. He is also attacking your beliefs. Are you that blind? He says that YOUR God is an “it.”Paladin is anti-Christian. Yet you are letting that go just because he is anti-trinitarian. Where's your head man? Paladin is our common enemy!
thinker
Trinitarian beliefs are anti-Christian as they deny Christ his rightful position as Christ and attempt to elevate Christ to God Himself.The office of Christ is not that of God
Bodhitharta,
Quote Trinitarian beliefs are anti-Christian as they deny Christ his rightful position as Christ and attempt to elevate Christ to God Himself. The office of Christ is not that of God
bd,
You grossly misrepresent trinitarianism. The “Christ” of God was exalted to His right hand which was a position of equality. Even many anti-trinitarians admit that Christ has a “functional” equality with God. After God elevated Christ to His right hand he said to Him,Quote Your throne O GOD is forever and ever Please explain this.
You anti-trinitarians give the Father all the credit for what Jesus did. If the Father deserves the credit for what Jesus did then why does the Father reward him?
Quote He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Therefore, God also has highly exalted Him and given Him a name that is above wevery name…. Anti-trinitarians are always spouting off “The Father did it all”. Then why did the Father reward Jesus? Anti-trinitarians belittle the obedience of Christ.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 10 2009,04:54) Bodhitharta, Quote Trinitarian beliefs are anti-Christian as they deny Christ his rightful position as Christ and attempt to elevate Christ to God Himself. The office of Christ is not that of God
bd,
You grossly misrepresent trinitarianism. The “Christ” of God was exalted to His right hand which was a position of equality. Even many anti-trinitarians admit that Christ has a “functional” equality with God. After God elevated Christ to His right hand he said to Him,Quote Your throne O GOD is forever and ever Please explain this.
You anti-trinitarians give the Father all the credit what Jesus did. If the Father deserves the credit for what Jesus did then why does the Father reward him?
Quote He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Therefore, God also has highly exalrted Him and given Him a name that is above wevery name…. Anti-trinitarians are always spouting off “The Father did it all”. Then why did the Father reward Jesus? Anti-trinitarians belittle the obedience of Christ.
thinker
I am not anti-trinitarian, if it were true I would be the first to promote it as the truth.Hebrews 1:7-9 (King James Version)
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Notice it says above thy fellows. It also says that God anointed him but what you might not know is that Paul is quoting a scripture that applied to someone else.
Psalm 45
1My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.2Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.
9Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
10Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
11So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.
12And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.
13The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.
14She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.
Notice in this psalms the words: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.
How many times have we seen here that Jesus must be God because people worshipped him and he didn't prevent them?
The answer is all kings were worshipped and as you can see from this psalms they were often called God.
Quote (thethinker @ June 10 2009,04:54) Bodhitharta, Quote Trinitarian beliefs are anti-Christian as they deny Christ his rightful position as Christ and attempt to elevate Christ to God Himself. The office of Christ is not that of God
bd,
You grossly misrepresent trinitarianism. The “Christ” of God was exalted to His right hand which was a position of equality. Even many anti-trinitarians admit that Christ has a “functional” equality with God. After God elevated Christ to His right hand he said to Him,Quote Your throne O GOD is forever and ever Please explain this.
You anti-trinitarians give the Father all the credit what Jesus did. If the Father deserves the credit for what Jesus did then why does the Father reward him?
Quote He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Therefore, God also has highly exalrted Him and given Him a name that is above wevery name…. Anti-trinitarians are always spouting off “The Father did it all”. Then why did the Father reward Jesus? Anti-trinitarians belittle the obedience of Christ.
thinker
Hi TT,
Because the lesser is blessed by the greater.[Heb7]
He was never his own God.His God should be yours.
Abhor strange trinity gods.
bodhitharta said:
Quote I am not anti-trinitarian, if it were true I would be the first to promote it as the truth. You lost me!
bodhitharta said:
Quote Hebrews 1:7-9 (King James Version) 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Please state what your point is in reference to Christ being anointed above His companions.
bodhitharta said:
Quote Notice it says above thy fellows. It also says that God anointed him but what you might not know is that Paul is quoting a scripture that applied to someone else. Psalm 45…. The Psalm spoke prophetically of Christ the GREATER KING. You have admitted yourself that Jesus was anointed above His companions. This means He was the GREATER king.
bodhitharta said:
Quote How many times have we seen here that Jesus must be God because people worshipped him and he didn't prevent them? The answer is all kings were worshipped and as you can see from this psalms they were often called God.
Your commentary is totally out of the context of Hebrews 1. In verse 6 we see that the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. How many old testament kings were worshipped by angels? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada! All men BOWED when angels appeared to them.
You missed verse 10 also. The Father is still speaking to the Son saying:
Quote You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth. And the heavens are the work of your hands. How many old testament kings laid the foundations of the earth and could say that the heavens were the work of his own hands? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada!
It is VERY CLEAR that the name “God” in reference to the Son in verse 8 means much more than it did in reference to old testament kings.
thinker
thinker………have you read the man of sin article i posted brother , read it and think about it brother, It will help separate you from this false teaching of the TRINITY brother. IMO
peace with much love and care to you and yours brother………………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ June 11 2009,04:30) bodhitharta said: Quote I am not anti-trinitarian, if it were true I would be the first to promote it as the truth. You lost me!
bodhitharta said:
Quote Hebrews 1:7-9 (King James Version) 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Please state what your point is in reference to Christ being anointed above His companions.
bodhitharta said:
Quote Notice it says above thy fellows. It also says that God anointed him but what you might not know is that Paul is quoting a scripture that applied to someone else. Psalm 45…. The Psalm spoke prophetically of Christ the GREATER KING. You have admitted yourself that Jesus was anointed above His companions. This means He was the GREATER king.
bodhitharta said:
Quote How many times have we seen here that Jesus must be God because people worshipped him and he didn't prevent them? The answer is all kings were worshipped and as you can see from this psalms they were often called God.
Your commentary is totally out of the context of Hebrews 1. In verse 6 we see that the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. How many old testament kings were worshipped by angels? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada! All men BOWED when angels appeared to them.
You missed verse 10 also. The Father is still speaking to the Son saying:
Quote You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth. And the heavens are the work of your hands. How many old testament kings laid the foundations of the earth and could say that the heavens were the work of his own hands? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada!
It is VERY CLEAR that the name “God” in reference to the Son in verse 8 means much more than it did in reference to old testament kings.
thinker
You say it was a prophecy but you only apply a very small part of the psalm why not apply all of it? Also, the psalmist says that he is talking about the King he is writing about that he worshipped at that time, why don't you believe that?(3) And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #34)Now this scripture that comes from The Glorious Quran says that God told the angels to bow to Adam and they all did except for Iblis(Satan)
Keep in mind Satan did not bow to Jesus either so this Quran makes clear that Satan is your avowed enemy and God made mankind to be the crown jewel of creation.
Quote (thethinker @ June 11 2009,04:30) bodhitharta said: Quote I am not anti-trinitarian, if it were true I would be the first to promote it as the truth. You lost me!
bodhitharta said:
Quote Hebrews 1:7-9 (King James Version) 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Please state what your point is in reference to Christ being anointed above His companions.
bodhitharta said:
Quote Notice it says above thy fellows. It also says that God anointed him but what you might not know is that Paul is quoting a scripture that applied to someone else. Psalm 45…. The Psalm spoke prophetically of Christ the GREATER KING. You have admitted yourself that Jesus was anointed above His companions. This means He was the GREATER king.
bodhitharta said:
Quote How many times have we seen here that Jesus must be God because people worshipped him and he didn't prevent them? The answer is all kings were worshipped and as you can see from this psalms they were often called God.
Your commentary is totally out of the context of Hebrews 1. In verse 6 we see that the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. How many old testament kings were worshipped by angels? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada! All men BOWED when angels appeared to them.
You missed verse 10 also. The Father is still speaking to the Son saying:
Quote You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth. And the heavens are the work of your hands. How many old testament kings laid the foundations of the earth and could say that the heavens were the work of his own hands? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada!
It is VERY CLEAR that the name “God” in reference to the Son in verse 8 means much more than it did in reference to old testament kings.
thinker
Also keep in mind that if Man was made in the image of God then why wouldn't a man who is reborn or anointed by God not have the angels worship him to the glory of God.Quote (bodhitharta @ June 11 2009,10:00) Quote (thethinker @ June 11 2009,04:30) bodhitharta said: Quote I am not anti-trinitarian, if it were true I would be the first to promote it as the truth. You lost me!
bodhitharta said:
Quote Hebrews 1:7-9 (King James Version) 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Please state what your point is in reference to Christ being anointed above His companions.
bodhitharta said:
Quote Notice it says above thy fellows. It also says that God anointed him but what you might not know is that Paul is quoting a scripture that applied to someone else. Psalm 45…. The Psalm spoke prophetically of Christ the GREATER KING. You have admitted yourself that Jesus was anointed above His companions. This means He was the GREATER king.
bodhitharta said:
Quote How many times have we seen here that Jesus must be God because people worshipped him and he didn't prevent them? The answer is all kings were worshipped and as you can see from this psalms they were often called God.
Your commentary is totally out of the context of Hebrews 1. In verse 6 we see that the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. How many old testament kings were worshipped by angels? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada! All men BOWED when angels appeared to them.
You missed verse 10 also. The Father is still speaking to the Son saying:
Quote You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth. And the heavens are the work of your hands. How many old testament kings laid the foundations of the earth and could say that the heavens were the work of his own hands? Answer: None! Zilch! Nada!
It is VERY CLEAR that the name “God” in reference to the Son in verse 8 means much more than it did in reference to old testament kings.
thinker
You say it was a prophecy but you only apply a very small part of the psalm why not apply all of it? Also, the psalmist says that he is talking about the King he is writing about that he worshipped at that time, why don't you believe that?(3) And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #34)Now this scripture that comes from The Glorious Quran says that God told the angels to bow to Adam and they all did except for Iblis(Satan)
Keep in mind Satan did not bow to Jesus either so this Quran makes clear that Satan is your avowed enemy and God made mankind to be the crown jewel of creation.
Hi BD,
So if your book is that of a prophet why do the writings speak of historical things?
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