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Quote (thethinker @ June 03 2009,04:51) bodhitharts said: Quote This is what I meant by literary device Usage Note:
Traditionally the pronouns he, him, and his have been used as generic or gender-neutral singular pronouns, as in A novelist should write about what he knows best and No one seems to take any pride in his work anymore. Since the early 20th century, however, this usage has come under increasing criticism for reflecting and perpetuating gender stereotyping.·Defenders of the traditional usage have argued that the masculine pronouns he, his, and him can be used generically to refer to men and women. This analysis of the generic use of he is linguistically doubtful. If he were truly a gender-neutral form, we would expect that it could be used to refer to the members of any group containing both men and women. But in fact the English masculine form is an odd choice when it refers to a female member of such a group. There is something plainly disconcerting about sentences such as Each of the stars of As Good As It Gets won an Academy Award for his performance. In this case, the use of his forces the reader to envision a single male who stands as the representative member of the group, a picture that is at odds with the image that comes to mind when we picture the stars of As Good As It Gets. Thus he is not really a gender-neutral pronoun; rather, it refers to a male who is to be taken as the representative member of the group referred to by its antecedent. The traditional usage, then, is not simply a grammatical convention; it also suggests a particular pattern of thought.·It is clear that many people now routinely construct their remarks to avoid generic he, usually using one of two strategies: changing to the plural, so they is used (which is often the easiest solution) or using compound and coordinate forms such as he/she or he or she (which can be cumbersome in sustained use). In some cases, the generic pronoun can simply be dropped or changed to an article with no change in meaning. The sentence A writer who draws on personal experience for material should not be surprised if reviewers seize on that fact is complete as it stands and requires no pronoun before the word material. The sentence Every student handed in his assignment is just as clear when written Every student handed in the assignment.·Not surprisingly, the opinion of the Usage Panel in such matters is mixed. While 37 percent actually prefer the generic his in the sentence A taxpayer who fails to disclose the source of _ income can be prosecuted under the new law, 46 percent prefer a coordinate form like his or her; 7 percent felt that no pronoun was needed in the sentence; 2 percent preferred an article, usually the; and another 2 percent overturned tradition by advocating the use of generic her, a strategy that brings the politics of language to the reader's notice. Thus a clear majority of the Panel prefers something other than his. The writer who chooses to use generic he and its inflected forms in the face of the strong trend away from that usage may be viewed as deliberately calling attention to traditional gender roles or may simply appear to be insensitive. See Usage Notes at each, every, neither, one, she, they.So you maintain your notion that God is not a personal being? Right?
thinker
To be personal is not to be a gender but to have a persona. You believe that God is a 3 in 1 persona or a multiple personality.We who believe in One God believe that God has a Unique Personality not 3 personalities with individual wills.
Jesus said “not my will but yours” How can God have multiple wills when Jesus said “Thy Will be done” not our will be done.
Whoever believes in a trinity, should try to prove it. You will find out that you cannot. But I can prove to you that there is no trinity.
Ephesians 4:6 The Father is above all, and in us all.
Jesus Himself said that My Father is greater then I.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (thethinker @ June 02 2009,11:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,11:07) Hi TT,
So God is the Father and God of Jesus?
That clears up the trinity misconception.
Nick,Here we have Paladin and bd saying things that God is an “it” and a “literary device” and you let them slide? God is not “father” to Jesus in the sense you think.
thinker
I will be glad to debate any capable trinitarian on the board, but you are not capable.One more time, you read a post and do not consider whi posted it, but you attribute it to me anyway.
I did not say “it” is a literary device.” That was stated in another author's post.
There would be no point in my debating you only to have to constantly correct your reading habits.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2009,03:13) Quote (Paladin @ June 02 2009,05:35) Quote (thethinker @ June 02 2009,20:18) bodhitharta said: Quote I didn't say God was an it I said that God was beyond gender. bd,
Thanks for clarifying this. You gave the impression you were denying the personality of God like Paladin. Why did you say “literary device” after I clarified that “he” simply means that God is a person? Paladin is a nut case. God is love and an “it” does not love. Anyway, Paladin's errors are far more serious than anyone's on ths board and Nick is giving him a free ride unchallenged. Paladin wants to discuss Monotheism. But in biblical Monotheism God is a person.thinker
Love is a “this” not an “it.”2 John 1:6 And THIS is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
All those who love Christ are “IT.”
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he “IT” is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
The problem you are having, is divorcing yourself from all those doctrines of men that make claims based on pronouns, that have no reality in the grammar of the Greek testament.
They are arguing from the standpoint of a translation, not from scripture. I am simply showing how rediculous it all is.
But I am not changing anything in scripture, just direct quotes with all the little pronouns in their correct place. Also showing how little those theologians are who do not take all the scriptures into account.
Those are the guys that make arguments about “pros ton followed by accusative” in John 1:1 and claim it means a close personal intimate relationship between two entities; Jesus and his father.
If that is true, it must be true for every occasion of “pros ton” followed by accusative, such as Mark 11:7 wich most certainly is NOT a “close intimate relationship;” It is between Jesus and a colt, the foal of an ass. Mark 11:7 And they brought the colt “pros ton” to [accusative] Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
Trinity arguments get even sillier than that, but trinitarians won't even consider that fact, as they cling to what they “clearly perceive” in reading scriptures, and commentaries, and books about the bible.
Hi PDQuote (Paladin @ June 02 2009,05:35) But I am not changing anything in scripture, just direct quotes with all the little pronouns in their correct place. Also showing how little those theologians are who do not take all the scriptures into account. Those are the guys that make arguments about “pros ton followed by accusative” in John 1:1 and claim it means a close personal intimate relationship between two entities; Jesus and his father.
So since you think you know more than the 100s or even thousands of Hebrew, Greek scholars, Theologians, and Commentators, then please at least tell us what credentials you have, or what Theological Degrees, Biblical Greek or Hebrew degrees do you have.Otherwise you are just another Arian apologist who thinks that he knows more than anyone else.
If you have no formal training or background in these matters than what gives you the right to change what the Translators or experts bring us? Most of them have dedicated their entire lives to bring us the scriptures and truth that we have?
Why should we believe you?
The truth is, when ever someone begins questioning the Translations and the Translators they are always someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about and who do not have any Degrees in Biblical Hebrew or Greek.
These apologists just bring us more of the same with variations of their false teachings while claiming that they are the ones speaking the truth and the Biblical experts are deceiving or do not know what they are talking about.
Some things never change!
WJ
Can't deal with the message, attack the messenger? I do hope you do not think that is original!I have at least the same credentials as those whom God chose to present his word in the first place. They were “unlearned and ignorant men.”
Please do not tell me you think only the “credentialed elite” can read scripture. Or follow a concept to fruition. Or extrapolate interpolations. Do you honestly think only trinitarians can follow what is written, by adding [omoousian, theos 'o huios] what they perceive was left out? And you call THAT “scholarship?”
As for proving my abilities in the scriptures, I notice YOU have not responded to my posts, with any degree of rebuttal. Problem?
Quote (thethinker @ June 03 2009,04:19) Paladin said: Quote Love is a “this” not an “it.” But a person loves. You're a hoot man!
thinker
Persons die. Persons are “it.”Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? “IT” is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET RID OF YOUR “PRONOUN PREJUDICE?”
Have you learned NOTHING? I am trying to demonstrate for your enlightenment, that pronouns are not the “prove all” tools trinitarians like to think they are.
Do you check my posts against the King James translation? If so, why are you arguing? In not, why do you not?
Hi PD
Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,08:48) Can't deal with the message, attack the messenger? I do hope you do not think that is original!
Sorry you see it as an attack. I guess I have my answer.In other words you do not have any credentials for “attacking” the 100s of scholars and commentators that brought you the translations, Biblical dictionaries, Hebrew and Greek definitions Etc., right?
Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,08:48)
I have at least the same credentials as those whom God chose to present his word in the first place. They were “unlearned and ignorant men.”
Look again, 2 thirds of the NT was written by a man who was trained by the best of his day.circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. Phil 3:5, 6
Also look for yourself and tell me if Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, and Peter were still unlearned men when they penned the scriptures. Do you exalt yourself to their status of being able to pen scriptures?
Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,08:48) Please do not tell me you think only the “credentialed elite” can read scripture.
I never said that did I?Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,08:48) Or follow a concept to fruition. Or extrapolate interpolations.
Fine, but when you interpolate Biblical pronouns to fit your own extrapolations with no credentials in Biblical Hebrew or Greek translation, then you are simply usurping your status as being equal to the experts, of which you are not.So again, why should we believe you over them?
Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,08:48) Do you honestly think only trinitarians can follow what is written, by adding [omoousian, theos 'o huios] what they perceive was left out? And you call THAT “scholarship?”
Obviously you know nothing about Biblical translation, or you would understand that in order to make sense of the text translators had to add words depending on context, Greek grammer, Etc.For instance on John 1:1…
What case, gender, and number is “theos” in John 1:1? Why is it anarthrous?
How about parsing “en”, its found three times in the verse. Its very imprtant.
Whats its lexical form? Why is the imperfect tense important in the verse?
How does the imperfect tense relate to the prepositional phrase at the start of the verse?
Why is “arche” in dative case? Why does “pros” have grave accent?
But there you go again, you claim that you know more than the translators, and for your information not all were Trinitarians.
It’s the same ole tired argument that the scriptures have been corrupted without any proof of such. Why haven’t the modern day Arians come out with their own Bible, OH that’s right they have, it’s called the NWT. The NWT is the most corrupt supposed translation there is.
The reason they cannot come out with their own Bible supporting their Arian doctrines is because like the NWT it would be totally rejected by the experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek translation regardless of their “Trinitarian” status.
That’s why you do not see the NWT or any of the other questionable translations on Blueletterbible.org or Biblegateway.com.
BTW all of those translations oppose your rendering of the pronouns!
Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,08:48) As for proving my abilities in the scriptures, I notice YOU have not responded to my posts, with any degree of rebuttal. Problem?
I’m just getting to know you. Lets just wait and see.Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,14:02) Hi WJ,
The apostles wrote by the abilities given them from the Spirit within.
NHAnd the Spirit within used their God given abilities!
WJ
Paladin said:
Quote I have at least the same credentials as those whom God chose to present his word in the first place. They were “unlearned and ignorant men.” WJ replied:
Quote Look again, 2 thirds of the NT was written by a man who was trained by the best of his day. WJ,
Exactly! And even those who were “ignorant men” received direct revelation from God. So “ignorance” in itself is not a qualification. Seeing that Paladin lacks Paul's formal training and he is not receiving direct revelations from God he should give sources. He should not pass himself off as a commentator on the Greek and the Hebrew. He will embarass himself and fail to gain any credibility.btw, I am still waiting for Gene to give his Greek credentials. He contradicts all the Greek textbooks on Titus 2:13 and when asked to give his basis he disappears.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 02 2009,20:28) Nick said: Quote The trinity deceit costs far more souls. Folk do not know who God is, who to worship and who to pray to.
Nick,
That's ridiculous Nick. Trinitarians go to church and are a community. But this site openly says, “We do not go to church. We are the church.” Which is more destructive to souls. Trinitarian community or this site's isolationism?Jesus said that the Father is worshipped through the worship of Christ. God commanded that Jesus be worshipped (Heb. 1:6).
thinker
Are you an angel? God commanded angels to worship the resurrected Christ. He never commanded men to worship Jesus. In fact, it was Jesus who told us that “true worshippers will worship the Father.”Footnote: If Jesus truly was God, why did angels have to be told to worship him? And why did it have to come from the Father if Jesus was God?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2009,03:13) Quote (Paladin @ June 02 2009,05:35) Quote (thethinker @ June 02 2009,20:18) bodhitharta said: Quote I didn't say God was an it I said that God was beyond gender. bd,
Thanks for clarifying this. You gave the impression you were denying the personality of God like Paladin. Why did you say “literary device” after I clarified that “he” simply means that God is a person? Paladin is a nut case. God is love and an “it” does not love. Anyway, Paladin's errors are far more serious than anyone's on ths board and Nick is giving him a free ride unchallenged. Paladin wants to discuss Monotheism. But in biblical Monotheism God is a person.thinker
Love is a “this” not an “it.”2 John 1:6 And THIS is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
All those who love Christ are “IT.”
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he “IT” is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
The problem you are having, is divorcing yourself from all those doctrines of men that make claims based on pronouns, that have no reality in the grammar of the Greek testament.
They are arguing from the standpoint of a translation, not from scripture. I am simply showing how rediculous it all is.
But I am not changing anything in scripture, just direct quotes with all the little pronouns in their correct place. Also showing how little those theologians are who do not take all the scriptures into account.
Those are the guys that make arguments about “pros ton followed by accusative” in John 1:1 and claim it means a close personal intimate relationship between two entities; Jesus and his father.
If that is true, it must be true for every occasion of “pros ton” followed by accusative, such as Mark 11:7 wich most certainly is NOT a “close intimate relationship;” It is between Jesus and a colt, the foal of an ass. Mark 11:7 And they brought the colt “pros ton” to [accusative] Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
Trinity arguments get even sillier than that, but trinitarians won't even consider that fact, as they cling to what they “clearly perceive” in reading scriptures, and commentaries, and books about the bible.
Hi PDQuote (Paladin @ June 02 2009,05:35) But I am not changing anything in scripture, just direct quotes with all the little pronouns in their correct place. Also showing how little those theologians are who do not take all the scriptures into account. Those are the guys that make arguments about “pros ton followed by accusative” in John 1:1 and claim it means a close personal intimate relationship between two entities; Jesus and his father.
Quote (WJ)
So since you think you know more than the 100s or even thousands of Hebrew, Greek scholars, Theologians, and Commentators, then please at least tell us what credentials you have, or what Theological Degrees, Biblical Greek or Hebrew degrees do you have.Otherwise you are just another Arian apologist who thinks that he knows more than anyone else.
If you have no formal training or background in these matters than what gives you the right to change what the Translators or experts bring us? Most of them have dedicated their entire lives to bring us the scriptures and truth that we have?
Why should we believe you?
(P) If you did believe me you would be a first-class fool. What you SHOULD do is search the scriptures. If what I tell you is found to be truth, obey it. If not, God will prevail.
(WJ)
Quote The truth is, when ever someone begins questioning the Translations and the Translators they are always someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about and who do not have any Degrees in Biblical Hebrew or Greek. So when Jesus questioned the teachings of the Pharisees, he did not know what he was talking about? The Pharisees not only interpreted the law, they sometimes retranslated it to include their own version of morality. Jesus stopped them with his “redirection.”
When the law said not to go beyond a Sabbath-day's journey on the sabbath, the Pharisees translated that to mean “go nowhere.”
Just as when God told the Jews not to take his name in vain, they said “o.k., we won';t take it at all, and began to
“translate” the Hebrew name for “God” into “Lord” and refuse EVEN TO THIS DAY, to pronounce his holy name. Would YOU teach them any different? I would, just as Jesus did, and I would still be called a heretic for my efforts.When the Emperor Constantine took over the church and brought in trinitariansim, the teachers feared for their lives. That is why there were 1800 bishops worldwide invited to the Nicean Council in 325 a.d., but only 250 to 318 attended. The number is uncertain because three different counts were recorded by those present.
Eusebius of Caesarea counted 250, Athanasius of Alexandria counted 318, and Eustathius of Antioch counted 270 (all three were present at the council). Later, Socrates Scholasticus recorded more than 300, and Evagrius, Hilarius, Jerome and Rufinus recorded 318.
When Constantine made his pronouncement, they capitulated, but the controvery was still going on at the second council in 385 a.d.
This is the historical point at which creeds were introduced, and it has been the tradition ever since.
Quote (WJ) These apologists just bringus more of the same with variations of their false teachings while claiming that they are the ones speaking the truth and the Biblical experts are deceiving or do not know what they are talking about.
Some things never change!But you see, WJ, I make no such claim. I say simply I am compelled to post the information. What you do with it is on YOUR conscience, but mine is free of guilt on this behalf.
Does it matter to me what you do with it? Very much so. Is there any way I can persuade you? Doubtful. But I have to try. Yea, woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel of Christ.
My only suggestion to you is, print out my post, compare it with scripture, and decide for
yourself. The only reason I suggest a printout is because it is easier to read from the hand, than switching back and to on the computer.If you honestly want to understand the gospel message, you should consider all events to be possible. When you check my position, against the chronology of the written account, you will see that Paul established the meaning of “Logos of God” long before John ever wrote of it. But I begin to repeat myself. You already have this information. Do with it what you will, but understand one thing. You will NOT rebut it successfully. And that is not because I am smarter than you, it is because the historical record is already in print forever, and the Holy Spirit WILL protect his work from destruction.
Quote (Paladin @ June 04 2009,08:01) Quote (thethinker @ June 02 2009,20:28) Nick said: Quote The trinity deceit costs far more souls. Folk do not know who God is, who to worship and who to pray to.
Nick,
That's ridiculous Nick. Trinitarians go to church and are a community. But this site openly says, “We do not go to church. We are the church.” Which is more destructive to souls. Trinitarian community or this site's isolationism?Jesus said that the Father is worshipped through the worship of Christ. God commanded that Jesus be worshipped (Heb. 1:6).
thinker
Are you an angel? God commanded angels to worship the resurrected Christ. He never commanded men to worship Jesus. In fact, it was Jesus who told us that “true worshippers will worship the Father.”Footnote: If Jesus truly was God, why did angels have to be told to worship him? And why did it have to come from the Father if Jesus was God?
Hi PDQuote (Paladin @ June 04 2009,08:01)
Are you an angel? God commanded angels to worship the resurrected Christ. He never commanded men to worship Jesus. In fact, it was Jesus who told us that “true worshippers will worship the Father.”
Yahshua used the same word “worship (proskuneo)” in John 4 in describing our worship of the Father that was practiced on him many times in scriptures.Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship “(proskuneo)” the Father. Ye worship “(proskuneo)” ye know not what: we know what we worship “(proskuneo)”: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers “(proskynētēs)” shall worship “(proskuneo)” the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship “(proskuneo)” him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship “(proskuneo)” him must worship “(proskuneo)” him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24
Now compare…
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (proskuneo) him. Matt 28:9
And when they saw him, they worshipped (proskuneo) him: but some doubted. Matt 28:17
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (proskuneo) him. Jn 9:38
Now why didn’t Jesus discourage them and tell them to worship God and not him for obviously he had used the same word for worship to the Father. In every other case in the NT you see (proskuneo) spoken of toward an Angel or a saint it was discouraged by the recipient. In fact I challenge you to find one NT instance where (proskuneo) was directed to anyone other than Jesus and the Father without being discouraged by the recipient or was simply mockery.
The Apostles could have used many words for describing honour or praise for Jesus instead of (proskuneo) the word that was used by Jesus himself for worship to the Father.
For honour, or praise or glory Jesus could have used
Worship (doxa) which means..
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and gloryBut when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship (doxa) in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. Luke 14:10
Or he could have used
Praise (exousia) which means…
1) approbation, commendation, praiseFor rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise (exousia) of the same: Romans 13:3
Or he could have used
Honour (timē) which means…
1) a valuing by which the price is fixed
a) of the price itself
b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold
2) honour which belongs or is shown to one
a) of the honour which one has by reason of rank and state of office which he holds
b) deference, reverenceBut glory, honour (timē) and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:10
None of these examples uses the word “(proskuneo)” to describe honour, praise, and glory to men.
John and the Apostles were not at all confused about the word “(proskuneo)” and Jesus use of the word in describing the “True Worship” of the Father.
Quote (Paladin @ June 04 2009,08:01)
Footnote: If Jesus truly was God, why did angels have to be told to worship him? And why did it have to come from the Father if Jesus was God?
Another vain attempt to disprove Jesus is God.If YHWH is God then why did he need to tell his creation they will worship him?
And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.” Exd 3:12
Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you. Exd 23:25
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isa 66:23, 24
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:…
The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings. “He is to worship” at the threshold of the gateway and then go out, but the gate will not be shut until evening. On the Sabbaths and New Moons “the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD” at the entrance to that gateway. Ezek 46:1-3
So now the Father because of Jesus being the God of the New Creation and order says “let all the Angels worship him”. Angels are higher than mortal men. Therefore it would behoove those that believe in the scriptures to worship Jesus as the scriptures proclaim.
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; “SAYING WITH A LOUD VOICE, WORTHY IS THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN TO RECEIVE POWER, AND RICHES, AND WISDOM, AND STRENGTH, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND BLESSING”. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under th
e earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “BLESSING, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND POWER, BE UNTO HIM THAT SITTETH UPON THE THRONE, *AND UNTO THE LAMB FOR EVER AND EVER*”.Blessings WJ
Paladin said:
Quote Are you an angel? God commanded angels to worship the resurrected Christ. He never commanded men to worship Jesus. In fact, it was Jesus who told us that “true worshippers will worship the Father.” Then I guess heaven will be segregated. The angels who worship Jesus will be in one segment and men will be another.
Quote Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish in the way when His wrath is kindled (Psalm 2:12) This Psalm was addressed to Israel, i.e., men.
Paladin said:
Quote If Jesus truly was God, why did angels have to be told to worship him? And why did it have to come from the Father if Jesus was God? The order came from the Father because it was the Father who exalted the Son. If you were exalted to CEO in a company those who were your once your superiors would need an official word from the powers that promoted you. Hebrews 1 says that Christ was for a little while made lower than the angels. Then God promoted Jesus and gave the angels the official word to worship His Son.
Your questions serve only to convolude and confuse.
thinker
Paladin said:
Quote Are you an angel? God commanded angels to worship the resurrected Christ. He never commanded men to worship Jesus. In fact, it was Jesus who told us that “true worshippers will worship the Father.” Philippians 2 says that every knee should bow “of those in heaven, of those on earth, and those under the earth” (2:10). The worship of Jesus is therefore to be UNIVERSAL among men and angels.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,11:58) Hi TT,
This intellectual boasting of yours is unseemly.
Nick,
There is nothing unseemly in calling on those who claim to have knowledge in certain disciplines to prove it.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2009,06:02) Quote (Paladin @ June 04 2009,08:01) Quote (thethinker @ June 02 2009,20:28) Nick said: Quote The trinity deceit costs far more souls. Folk do not know who God is, who to worship and who to pray to.
Nick,
That's ridiculous Nick. Trinitarians go to church and are a community. But this site openly says, “We do not go to church. We are the church.” Which is more destructive to souls. Trinitarian community or this site's isolationism?Jesus said that the Father is worshipped through the worship of Christ. God commanded that Jesus be worshipped (Heb. 1:6).
thinker
Are you an angel? God commanded angels to worship the resurrected Christ. He never commanded men to worship Jesus. In fact, it was Jesus who told us that “true worshippers will worship the Father.”Footnote: If Jesus truly was God, why did angels have to be told to worship him? And why did it have to come from the Father if Jesus was God?
Hi PDQuote (Paladin @ June 04 2009,08:01)
Are you an angel? God commanded angels to worship the resurrected Christ. He never commanded men to worship Jesus. In fact, it was Jesus who told us that “true worshippers will worship the Father.”
Yahshua used the same word “worship (proskuneo)” in John 4 in describing our worship of the Father that was practiced on him many times in scriptures.Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship “(proskuneo)” the Father. Ye worship “(proskuneo)” ye know not what: we know what we worship “(proskuneo)”: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers “(proskynētēs)” shall worship “(proskuneo)” the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship “(proskuneo)” him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship “(proskuneo)” him must worship “(proskuneo)” him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24
Now compare…
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (proskuneo) him. Matt 28:9
And when they saw him, they worshipped (proskuneo) him: but some doubted. Matt 28:17
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (proskuneo) him. Jn 9:38
Now why didn’t Jesus discourage them and tell them to worship God and not him for obviously he had used the same word for worship to the Father. In every other case in the NT you see (proskuneo) spoken of toward an Angel or a saint it was discouraged by the recipient. In fact I challenge you to find one NT instance where (proskuneo) was directed to anyone other than Jesus and the Father without being discouraged by the recipient or was simply mockery.
The Apostles could have used many words for describing honour or praise for Jesus instead of (proskuneo) the word that was used by Jesus himself for worship to the Father.
For honour, or praise or glory Jesus could have used
Worship (doxa) which means..
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and gloryBut when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship (doxa) in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. Luke 14:10
Or he could have used
Praise (exousia) which means…
1) approbation, commendation, praiseFor rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise (exousia) of the same: Romans 13:3
Or he could have used
Honour (timē) which means…
1) a valuing by which the price is fixed
a) of the price itself
b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold
2) honour which belongs or is shown to one
a) of the honour which one has by reason of rank and state of office which he holds
b) deference, reverenceBut glory, honour (timē) and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:10
None of these examples uses the word “(proskuneo)” to describe honour, praise, and glory to men.
John and the Apostles were not at all confused about the word “(proskuneo)” and Jesus use of the word in describing the “True Worship” of the Father.
Quote (Paladin @ June 04 2009,08:01)
Footnote: If Jesus truly was God, why did angels have to be told to worship him? And why did it have to come from the Father if Jesus was God?
Another vain attempt to disprove Jesus is God.If YHWH is God then why did he need to tell his creation they will worship him?
And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.” Exd 3:12
Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you. Exd 23:25
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isa 66:23, 24
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:…
The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings. “He is to worship” at the threshold of the gateway and then go out, but the gate will not be shut until evening. On the Sabbaths and New Moons “the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD” at the entrance to that gateway. Ezek 46:1-3
So now the Father because of Jesus being the God of the New Creation and order says “let all the Angels worship him”. Angels are higher than mortal men. Therefore it would behoove those that believe in the scriptures to worship Jesus as the scriptures proclaim.
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousand
s; “SAYING WITH A LOUD VOICE, WORTHY IS THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN TO RECEIVE POWER, AND RICHES, AND WISDOM, AND STRENGTH, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND BLESSING”. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “BLESSING, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND POWER, BE UNTO HIM THAT SITTETH UPON THE THRONE, *AND UNTO THE LAMB FOR EVER AND EVER*”.Blessings WJ
WJ,
Excellent post on “proskuneo” bro!thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 04 2009,14:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,11:58) Hi TT,
This intellectual boasting of yours is unseemly.
Nick,
There is nothing unseemly in calling on those who claim to have knowledge in certain disciplines to prove it.thinker
Hi JackNH doesnt believe in the gifts that was given to the church it seems.
One of those gifts was “teachers”, and if you have teachers then it must mean that there will be students.
I suppose he doesnt consider himself a student to anyone but God.
WJ
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