Did john say god became flesh? or was it satan at

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May 30, 2009 at 3:08 pm#131983

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Paladin………….I will go to the Help desk and see if T8 , who runs Heaven Net can Help us out Here. Keep posting You posts are needed Here, for all of Us. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

May 30, 2009 at 4:53 pm#131990

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Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,12:00)

Paladin wrote:

Quote

Paul said the logos of God IS the mystery hid for ages and generations, AND described the mystery as being “Christ in you,” the hope of glory.

Paladin,
Paul stated simply that the mystery was Christ in them the hope of glory. He simply stated that he was the appointed steward to fulfill that logos (or word).

How do you explain John 1:3?

Quote

All things were made by Him

Explain how Christ in us the hope of glory created all things.

Paladin said:

Quote

Since both “God” and “Logos” are masculine, and since both God and logos are referenced in scripture as “IT,” it makes me wonder why you would accuse me so unjustly. Is it to make those who are less knowledgable, prejudge my case?

Where is God referenced as “it”? And what basis in the context of John 1 do you have for referencing logos as “it”.

thinker

Quote

(Paladin)
Paul said the logos of God IS the mystery hid for ages and generations, AND described the mystery as being “Christ in you,” the hope of glory.

(Thinker) Paladin, Paul stated simply that the mystery was Christ in them the hope of glory. He simply stated that he was the appointed steward to fulfill that logos (or word).

(P) What Paul actually said:
Col 1:25 “Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the logos of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:”

Paul said he was given a ministry to fully preach the logos of God, which had been hidden in a mystery from ages and from generations; but now is made known to the saints, and that God will make known the riches of the glory of this mystery called “logos,” which is “Christ in you.” He goes on to describe this logos as our “hope of glory.”

Quote

(Thinker)
How do you explain John 1:3? “All things were made by Him”

John 1:3 All things were egeneto [made] by it; and without it was egeneto [made] nothinge that was gegonen [made].

In the sense of the meaning of the verb forms, John is saying, “All things became by it, and without it became nothing that has become.” Geggonen is the perfect active form of ginomai. This is what caused “has become” a better understanding than “was made” because of the implied tense of the verb which means “become” or “come to pass.”

Two forms of the verb ginomai, the Greek words “egeneto” and “gegonen” are a reference to what the created world has become. “Were made, Was made, has been made” are incorrectly understood to mean originally created. It does NOT. The Greek words that were used mean “to become,” “come to pass,” “happen.”

In the New Testament it is NEVER translated “create” because it does not mean create. It does not say “create, or created” in John's account either. It is a misunderstanding of the term translated “made;” a reference to what comes to pass, originates, brought into existence. It references the RESULT of change, not the action of changing.

Do you understand a creation to take place if I tell you “Pilate and Herod were made friends.” Do you understand that Pilate and Herod were enemies, and “BECAME” friends? It is not a creation. It is a becoming of something, in relation to what it was, or what was promised.

John is referencing what has become, from the standpoint of what the Christian community understood. It is comparable to saying “look at what has resulted” from the logos of God being applied to the original creation.” God created, Jesus died, was resurrected, and ascended to God's right hand, and everything “became” in a new relationship to God as a result of Jesus' death.

Mat 7:28; 9:10; 11:1; “came to pass”
Mat 5:18 till all be “fulfilled”
Mat 6:10 thy will be “done”
Mat 8:16 when the evening was “come”
Mat 8:24 a tempest “arose” in the sea
Mat 9:16 the rent is “made” worse
Mat 13:21 persecution “ariseth”
Mat 13:22 “become” unfruitful
Mat 13:32 (seed) “becometh” a tree
Mat 18:3 (be converted) and “become” as little children
Mat 18:19 it “shall be done” (become)
Mat 21:4 all this was “done” that it might be fulfilled (spoken prophecy)
Mat 21:19 let no fruit “grow” on thee
Mat 21:42 this is the Lord's “doing”
Mat 23:15 make one proselyte, and when he is “made”
Mat 14:6 all these things must “come to pass” but the end is not yet
Mat 24:6 till all these things be “fulfilled”
Mark 1:17 I will make you to “become” fishers of men
Mark 4:11 all these things “are done” in parables

Do you see the parameters of definition for “ginomai?” It does not mean creation, it means a becoming or a change of what was to what was promised or designed to be, of a different quality.

John 1:3 concerning logos, “all things became by it, and without it nothing became that has become.”

“He” in the passage is provided by the bias of the translators, who, being unhappy with the earlier versions, changed the later versions to accomodate a doctrine that the logos is the man Jesus. It is NOT.

Till 1525, the English translation read “that one” or “it,” not “He.”

TYNDALE BIBLE (1525)
John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and the worde was god. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with god. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe; and the lyfe was the lyght of men. 5 And the lyght shyneth in darknes; but the darknes comprehended it not.

GREAT BIBLE (1539)
1 In the begynnyng was the worde, and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng wyth God. 3 All things were made by it, and wythout it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyghte of men, 5 and the lyght shyneth in darcknes, and the darcknes comprehended it not.

GENEVA BIBLE (1560)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the worde, and the worde was with God, and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was lif; and the lif was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkenes; and the darkenes comprehended it not.

BISHOP'S BIBLE (1568)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was that word. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darknesse; and the dark
eness comprehendeth it not.

RHEIMS BIBLE (1582)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was the word. 2 This was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was made nothing. That which was made 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darknesse; and the darkenesse did not comprehend it.

KING JAMES BIBLE (1611)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Rheims (1582) has “This was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him” Which violates the rules of Greek grammar, as you well know. It changes the reference from “this” to “Him” without an entecedent person.

KJV (1611); RV (1881) (which became ASV 1901) has it “the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him;” making the same error the Catholics did, to accomodate a doctrinal bias.

Finally, the RSV (1946) changed it to read “He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him” changing the referent “it” to “he” in verse two instead of waiting till verse three. It is only a matter of time till some translation comes out that says “created” by him. But it is not in the Greek.

To keep my posts shorter, and reasonable, I will respond in two or more posts for simplicity of understanding.

May 30, 2009 at 5:55 pm#131993

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,12:00)

Paladin wrote:

Quote

Paul said the logos of God IS the mystery hid for ages and generations, AND described the mystery as being “Christ in you,” the hope of glory.

Paladin,
Paul stated simply that the mystery was Christ in them the hope of glory. He simply stated that he was the appointed steward to fulfill that logos (or word).

How do you explain John 1:3?

Quote

All things were made by Him

Explain how Christ in us the hope of glory created all things.

Paladin said:

Quote

Where is God referenced as “it”? And what basis in the context of John 1 do you have for referencing logos as “it”.

thinker

Quote

(Thinker)
Explain how Christ in us the hope of glory created all things.

Before the beginning of creation, Wisdom was “brought forth” and was with God.[Prov 8:22-31]
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.[Gen 1]

God told Israel of many “new things” He had in mind, and told them they would be coming.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and NEW THINGS do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

HE TOLD HIS PEOPLE NOT TO REMEMBER THE THINGS OF OLD, BECAUSE HE WAS GOING TO SHOW THEM SOMETHING NEW
Isa 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

NEW HEAVEN, NEW FOUNDATION FOR EARTH
He told them he “hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth;” [Isa 51:13]
Yet just three verses later, he tells Isaiah he put his words in Isaiah's mouth THAT HE MAY plant, and lay THE FOUNDATIONS “And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth…” [Isa 51:16]

NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH – THE MESSIANIC HOPE BEGINS IN PROPHECY
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

NEW NAME
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

NEW COVENANT
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

NEW SPIRIT
Eze 11:19, 18:31

NEW HEART
Eze 18:31, 36:26

By the time Jesus finished his ministry, all things had become new exactly as laid out in the logos of God in prophecy.

He began by laying a new foundation for living on earth, recorded im Mat 5-7 in what is known as the “sermon on the mount” with “Ye have heard it said…but I say unto you…” as he changed every relationship man has with man.

And he changed heaven when he was raised from the dead and ascended to sit at God's right hand. All thrones and dominions and principalities and powers in heaven had to move down one position, to accomodate his new position as second in the kingdom.

Look at what Col 1:16 really says –
Col 1:16 For by him were all created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all were created by him, and for him:

See that little limiting parameter “WHETHER THEY BE?” That word “whether” limits the term “all things” to the list immediately following.

For by him were all created…WHETHER THEY BE thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all were created by him, and for him: [note: “things” IS not IN THE REFERENCE PASSAGE. “things” is supplied by the translators.]

NEW NAME – CHRISTIAN – and – LOGOS
Acts 11:26 “…And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
I Pet 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

NEW MAN
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

NEW CREATURE
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

NEW COMMANDMENT
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

I Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

II Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

NEW COVENANT
Heb 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

NEW LUMP
I Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

NEW AND LIVING WAY
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

ALL ARE A NEW CREATION IN CHRIST JESUS
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all are [GEGONEN] become new.

Just like he said in John 1:3
John 1:3 All things became by it; and without it nothing became that [GEGONEN] has become.

Quote

(Paladin)
Since both “God” and “Logos” are masculine, and since both God and logos are referenced in scripture as “IT.”

(Thinker)
Where is God referenced as “it”? And what basis in the context of John 1 do you have for referencing logos as “it”.

All over the new testament. In fact, logos is ONLY referenced as “he” in one questionable and challenged reference, John 1:1.

“IT” is my Father, and your God
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: [IT] is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

“IT” is God
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.

Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Josh 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he [it is] that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

Josh 24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

2 Sam 22:48 It [is] God that avengeth me, and that bringeth down the people under me,

Psa 18:32 [IT is] God that…

Psa 18:47 [IT is] God that avengeth me…

Psa 60:12 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that] shall…

Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [IT is] he [that]

Psa 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that]…

Isa 36:7 But if thou say to me, We trust in the LORD our God: [is IT] not he…

Rom 3:30 Seeing [IT is] one God, which shall…..

Rom 8:33 …..[IT is] God that……

1 Cor 12:6 … but IT is THE same God WHICH…..

“THIS” is God
Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, THIS [is] our God;

“THE” God
Ezr 6:12 And THE God that hath caused

Ezr 7:23 Whatsoever is commanded by THE God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of THE God of heaven:

Jer 48:1 Against Moab thus saith the LORD of hosts, THE God of Israel….

Jer 51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, THE God of Israel

“THE” great God
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; THE great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Here is just a sample, by no way exhaustive, of the use of “autos” in John's writings in the new testament, where John references “it” either in plural or singular form.

I limited myself to posting John's writings because the new testament is full of such examples. It still will not prove anything to trinitarians, because they will simply deny the significance of it, even though they required the proof.

“IT” IN JOHN'S WRITINGS

I JOHN
1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know [it](auteen = accusative feminine pronoun form of autos), and that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and [this](touto = nominative pronominal demonstrative adjective neuter singular form of outos) is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

II JOHN
2 John 1:6 And this [autee](Nominative demonstrative pronominal feminine singular form of outos) is love, that we walk after his commandments. [This] (same as prior)is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in [it](autee = dative feminine third person singular pronoun form of autos).

As for “it” in Revelation –
REVELATION
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut [it](auteen = accusative feminine third person singular pronoun form of autos: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of [their](autwn = Genative neuter third person plural form of autos) places.

Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled [it](auton = accusative masculine pronoun third person singular form of autos) with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of [them](autwn = Genitive masculine third person plural pronoun form of autos) was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of [it](autees = genitive pronoun feminine third person singular form of autos), and the night likewise.

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find [it](auton = accusative masculine third person singular pronoun form of autos) and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take
it, and eat [it](auto = accusative neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos) up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate [it](auto see 10:9) up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten [it](auto see 10:9), my belly was bitter.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod; and the angel stood saying, rise and measure the temple of God, and the altar and them that worship in [it] (autw = dative masculine third person siungular pronoun form of autos).

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure [it](auteen = accusative feminine third person singular pronoun form of autos) not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn [them](auta = accusative neuter third person plural form of autos) to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast [them](autous = accusative masculine third person plural pronoun form of autos) to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

JOHN'S GOSPEL
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was with God; and God was the logos. 2[This one] (outos = demonstrative nominative pronominal adjective masculine singular form of outos) was in the beginning with God; 3 all things through [it](autou = genitive masculine third person singular pronoun form of autos) became and without [it](autou = same) became not one thing which has become. 4 in [it](autw = dative pronoun masculine singular form of autos) was life and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended [it](auto = accusative neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos) not.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise [it](auton = accusative masculine third person singular pronoun form of autos) up.

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was [this](outos = nominative demonstrative adjective form of outos ) temple in building, and wilt thou rear [it](auton = acusative masculine third person singular pronoun form of autos) up in three days?

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound of [it](autou = genitive neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos), but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 6:39 And [this](touto = demonstrative nominative pronominal adjective form of outos) is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should not lose of [it](autou = genitive neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos) but should raise [it](auto = accusative neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos) up again at the last day.

John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at [it](toutou = demonstrative genitive pronominal adjective form of outos), he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of [it](autou = genitive pronoun form of autos), that the works thereof are evil.

John 7:22 Because of [this](touto = demonstrative pronominal accusative adjective form of outos) Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

John 10:18 No man taketh [it](auteen = feminine accusative pronoun form of autos) from me, but I lay [it](same) down of myself. I have power to lay [it](same) down, and I have power to take [it](same) again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon [it](autw = neuter dative pronoun form of autos).

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, [it](autos = nominative masculine third person singular pronoun form of autos) abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose [it](auteen = accusative feminine third person singular pronoun form of autos); and he that hateth his life in [this](toutw = ) world shall keep [it](auteen = ) unto life eternal.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth [it](auto = accusative pronoun form of autos), that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew [it](auteen = accusative feminine third person singular pronoun form of autos), and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink [it](auto = accusative neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos)?

John 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend [it](auton = accusative masculine third person singular pronoun form of autos), but cast lots for [it]( autou = Genitive masculine third person singular pronoun form of autos), whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

John 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound [it](auto = accusative neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos) in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw [it](auto = accusative neuter third person singular pronoun form of autos) for the multitude of fishes.

May 30, 2009 at 10:40 pm#132003

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Guest @ May 29 2009,06:56)

Quote (Gene @ May 29 2009,02:52)

Paladin………..I also do not believe Jesus preexisted his Berth, and If a person doesn't see Jesus as a purely flesh and blood person like us he or she just doesn't see Jesus, Jesus had the (CHRISTOS) or anointing and we who have been given the same SPIRIT also have the Christos in Us, So as He is so are we. I believe this is what Paul meant by “CHRIST” in YOU, it was the same anointing in Him that is in US. I also believe that we also shall become the WORD even as Jesus will be. Good POST gives us much to think about. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

[Gene] Paladin………..I also do not believe Jesus preexisted his Berth, and If a person doesn't see Jesus as a purely flesh and blood person like us he or she just doesn't see Jesus, Jesus had the (CHRISTOS) or anointing and we who have been given the same SPIRIT also have the Christos in Us, So as He is so are we. [/quote]

Thank you Gene, for that warm welcome. You are correct about the Xristos in us, because the priests, kings, and prophets of the Old Testament were designated with the same designations as was Jesus. They were “the anointed of God” just as Jesus is “The Christ of God.”

King David spoke of King Saul to Abner, calling Saul “ton kurion sou ton basilea” [thy Lord the king]; and “ton Xriston Kuriou,” The anointed of the Lord, which offices Saul held till his death. The appointment is for life. At one's death, the office ceases and his replacement takes over both the offices and the titles….

1 Sam 26:15 And David said to Abner, Art not thou a valiant man? and who is like to thee in Israel? wherefore then hast thou not kept ton Kurion sou ton basilea [thy lord the king]? for there came one of the people in to destroy ton basilea Kurion sou [the king thy lord]. 16 This thing is not good that thou hast done. As the LORD liveth, ye are worthy to die, ye who guard ton bassilea kurion [your Lord the king], ton Criston kuriou [the anointed of the Lord]. And now see where the king's spear is, and the cruse of water that was at his head.

But Luke calls Jesus “ton Xriston Kuriou” [The Lord's anointed]. Jesus was the Lord's anointed during his lifetime. At his death, the office ceased.
Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen ton Xriston Kuriou [The Lord's Christ].

Quote

I believe this is what Paul meant by “CHRIST” in YOU, it was the same anointing in Him that is in US. I also believe that we also shall become the WORD even as Jesus will be. Good POST gives us much to think about. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

THAT is why it is so important that people at least get the opportunity to turn it down. If they want to reject this information, it is on their head. If I refuse to post it, it is on my head.

John 9:5 (New International Version)

4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

This statement clearly shows that Jesus did not consider himself God, otherwise he would have said that he is always the light of the world.

May 30, 2009 at 11:43 pm#132008

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 31 2009,10:40)

Quote (Guest @ May 29 2009,06:56)

Quote (Gene @ May 29 2009,02:52)

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

Quote

THAT is why it is so important that people at least get the opportunity to turn it down. If they want to reject this information, it is on their head. If I refuse to post it, it is on my head.[/quote]
John 9:5 (New International Version)

4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

This statement clearly shows that Jesus did not consider himself God, otherwise he would have said that he is always the light of the world.

Good point bodhitharta;

I notice that every argument trinitarians offer to “prove” the trinity doctrine, can be explained in a different way, that makes equal or better sense, and promotes a monotheistic doctrine.

But when I offer the monotheistic doctrine, trinitarians cannot do the same.

Thanks for the input

May 31, 2009 at 2:14 am#132017

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ May 31 2009,11:43)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 31 2009,10:40)

Quote (Guest @ May 29 2009,06:56)

Quote (Gene @ May 29 2009,02:52)

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

Quote

THAT is why it is so important that people at least get the opportunity to turn it down. If they want to reject this information, it is on their head. If I refuse to post it, it is on my head.

John 9:5 (New International Version)

4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

This statement clearly shows that Jesus did not consider himself God, otherwise he would have said that he is always the light of the world.[/quote]
Good point bodhitharta;

I notice that every argument trinitarians offer to “prove” the trinity doctrine, can be explained in a different way, that makes equal or better sense, and promotes a monotheistic doctrine.

But when I offer the monotheistic doctrine, trinitarians cannot do the same.

Thanks for the input

Well, there is a great fear in changing a position after it is adopted because it involves people feeling duped and that they must face the wasted time they put into their belief system. However, each person should dedicate his/her self to understanding God to the best of ones ability and not to a specific doctrine.

No one should consider their time seeking God a waste. It's like getting in shape and losing weight eventually to really meet your goals there are certain things that need to be changed and learned bit by bit and none of it is wasted time if a person is honest and moves forward.

I have told trinitarians and those who simply believe that Jesus is God Almighty that they should listen to the person that they are talking about. Jesus said that the Father was THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus said to whom the word of God was given they were called gods. So if Jesus is saying these things why don't they believe?

Moses was called a god by God. God Almighty told Jesus I will anoint you above all your fellows. So God can call God anyone who is his representative because all Glory is due to Him alone.

It is up to God to dole out praise to those who are close to Him but as for us we worship God Almighty. Believe me if Jesus were God Almighty I'd be the first one to worship him as such and If I bow in humility to him it is to him as a King, but when it comes to God, only God Almighty Most High is due praise.

May 31, 2009 at 4:06 am#132028

GeneBalthrop

Participant

bodhitharta…………I also agree with you on this Brother, and Padadin, and Adam and others do to. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

May 31, 2009 at 12:19 pm#132044

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 31 2009,14:14)

(bodhitharta)

Quote

John 9:5 (New International Version)

4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

This statement clearly shows that Jesus did not consider himself God, otherwise he would have said that he is always the light of the world.

(Paladin) Good point bodhitharta;

I notice that every argument trinitarians offer to “prove” the trinity doctrine, can be explained in a different way, that makes equal or better sense, and promotes a monotheistic doctrine.

But when I offer the monotheistic doctrine, trinitarians cannot do the same.

(bodhitharta)

Quote

Well, there is a great fear in changing a position after it is adopted because it involves people feeling duped and that they must face the wasted time they put into their belief system.

I agree that is part of the problem. However, I know for a fact, some just can't give up the reputation they have built up over years of teaching and studying, to have to start over again.

I was raised a Catholic, and was interested in persuing the priesthood for my vocation. Then I studied my way out of Catholicism, into denominationalsim, but still had many questions unresolved. Only when I was challenged to prove my defense of the trinity, did I begin to understand the significance of many of my “proof texts” which did not PROVE. Any time a text can be properly grammatically stated in more than one way, it cannot be said it is a stand-alone “proof text.” Only when it is used in conjunction with other “proof texts” and explained in depth, and leave s no question remaining, can it be said to PROVE.

But when I use a text to prove my position, and other texts contradict my conclusion, then I have not proved my conclusion. I have simply asserted it and depend upon my opponents inability to rebut it in debate. I consider all textual arguments, then begin to persue the argument that provides the least problem to understanding. Eventually I will arrive at a conclusion, but not soon and not easily. It is too important to grasp at man made doctrines for support.

(bodhitharta)

Quote

However, each person should dedicate his/her self to understanding God to the best of ones ability and not to a specific doctrine.

Moses was called a god by God. God Almighty told Jesus I will anoint you above all your fellows. So God can call God anyone who is his representative because all Glory is due to Him alone.

Oh, I agree, but still think Jesus is due praise and honour. We are to honour the son even as we honour the Father, but honour is not worship. I am to worship God, and since Jesus my Lord has a God, THAT is the God I will worship; because Jesus himself pointed it out; “I go to my God and your God.” So we, Jesus and I, have a God in common.

May 31, 2009 at 2:33 pm#132047

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (Guest @ May 31 2009,05:55)

Before the beginning of creation, Wisdom was “brought forth” and was with God.[Prov 8:22-31]
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.[Gen 1]

NEW NAME
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

NEW SPIRIT
Eze 11:19, 18:31

NEW HEART
Eze 18:31, 36:26

By the time Jesus finished his ministry, all things had become new exactly as laid out in the logos of God in prophecy.

See that little limiting parameter “WHETHER THEY BE?” That word “whether” limits the term “all things” to the list immediately following.

NEW CREATURE
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

NEW COMMANDMENT
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

I Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

II Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

NEW COVENANT
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.