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Quote (bodhitharta @ June 17 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:38) Hi BD,
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile as all in Christ are one in Christ
all that are one in Christ are one in God.But all those that are one in God accept all the messengers of God
Why would God tell us that Jesus was the last messenger if he was going to send anotehr?KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things…And why would God go to so much trouble to teach us that his covenant was to be through Isaac and Jacob, if he would later take it through Ishmael?
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
If Ishmael was to be the spokesman for God, why would God tell us –
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” [Gal 4:22-31]Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2009,11:18) Quote (Paladin @ June 16 2009,18:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,07:14) Hi TT,
So as mediator he cannot also be part of the God he mediates for us with.
There is no trinity.
You may want to rethink that one, Nick.I agree he is not God, BUT, and this is important, he IS a man mediating for man. As for being God, as the son of God he is a form of God, but is not God.
One cannot be both a thing and a form of the thing.
What say you?
Hi PDIs the Father in “the form of God”, if not what form is he in.
Jesus said…
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, “nor seen his shape“. John 5:37 KJV
The NIV has it “form” instead of shape.
The Greek word for “shape” is eidos which means;
1) the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape
2) form, kind
Jesus claims he has seen the Father, implying that he has seen the Fathers shape or form.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, “he hath seen the Father“. John 6:46
So if no man has seen the Father then when did Jesus see him?
Could it be when he was the Word that was with God and was God?
This same word is used for the Holy Spirit…
And the Holy Ghost descended in a “bodily shape (eidos)” like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Luke 3:22
The Father God can take on forms just as the Son can.
The Greek word for “form” in Phil 2:6 is morphē which means;
1) the form by which a person or thing “strikes the vision“
2) external appearance
Phil 2:7 says he took on the form (morphē) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
We would not say that he was not a servant or a man because he was in the form of a servant, a man, would we?
Jesus also appeared in another form here…
After that he appeared in another form (morphē) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. MK 16:12
God is not limited to our finite minds and can only be seen in one dimension. Everything in the Universe is plural in nature right down to the molecular structure or building blocks of all of creation, the atom. In fact name one thing that is not Plural in unity!
The creation reveals the Glory of God.
God can and he did come in the likeness of sinful flesh.
And was given the name “Emmanuel” which is interpreted “God with us”.
Blessings WJ
PS I will be getting to your other post but it may be a couple of days. My wife is going in for surgery Thurs to remove a huge tumer (none malignant), and I may not be in town Sat, and Sunday.
My prayers will go upward for the safety of your wife, and my earnest wish is for you to have faith she will come through it with God's help.I will come back to the post later when you feel like persuing the matter.
Quote (Gene @ June 18 2009,02:00) WJ………..Hope all goes well for your wife brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Hi WJ,
Your wife will be in my prayers too. If you need someone to take care of the kids give Gene a call
thinker
Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,01:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 17 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:38) Hi BD,
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile as all in Christ are one in Christ
all that are one in Christ are one in God.But all those that are one in God accept all the messengers of God
Why would God tell us that Jesus was the last messenger if he was going to send anotehr?KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things…And why would God go to so much trouble to teach us that his covenant was to be through Isaac and Jacob, if he would later take it through Ishmael?
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
If Ishmael was to be the spokesman for God, why would God tell us –
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” [Gal 4:22-31]
Paladin,Saying “in these last days” does not mean “last messenger”
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
also once again Paul picks out things not said by God but by anyone who makes his point for it was Sarah who said:
Genesis 21:9-11 (King James Version)
9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Abraham was grieved by her decision
Genesis 21:11-13 (King James Version)
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
also
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Now the Bible was written mainly about the children of Israel but do you think that God was with Ishmael to no effect?
The seed of Abraham is only fulfilled in both of the children lest you believe that God would not keep his promise.
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Also keep in mind that the Bondwoman was freed.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2009,11:18) Quote (Paladin @ June 16 2009,18:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,07:14) Hi TT,
So as mediator he cannot also be part of the God he mediates for us with.
There is no trinity.
You may want to rethink that one, Nick.I agree he is not God, BUT, and this is important, he IS a man mediating for man. As for being God, as the son of God he is a form of God, but is not God.
One cannot be both a thing and a form of the thing.
What say you?
Hi PDIs the Father in “the form of God”, if not what form is he in.
Jesus said…
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, “nor seen his shape“. John 5:37 KJV
The NIV has it “form” instead of shape.
The Greek word for “shape” is eidos which means;
1) the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape
2) form, kind
Jesus claims he has seen the Father, implying that he has seen the Fathers shape or form.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, “he hath seen the Father“. John 6:46
So if no man has seen the Father then when did Jesus see him?
Could it be when he was the Word that was with God and was God?
This same word is used for the Holy Spirit…
And the Holy Ghost descended in a “bodily shape (eidos)” like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Luke 3:22
The Father God can take on forms just as the Son can.
The Greek word for “form” in Phil 2:6 is morphē which means;
1) the form by which a person or thing “strikes the vision“
2) external appearance
Phil 2:7 says he took on the form (morphē) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
We would not say that he was not a servant or a man because he was in the form of a servant, a man, would we?
Jesus also appeared in another form here…
After that he appeared in another form (morphē) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. MK 16:12
God is not limited to our finite minds and can only be seen in one dimension. Everything in the Universe is plural in nature right down to the molecular structure or building blocks of all of creation, the atom. In fact name one thing that is not Plural in unity!
The creation reveals the Glory of God.
God can and he did come in the likeness of sinful flesh.
And was given the name “Emmanuel” which is interpreted “God with us”.
Blessings WJ
PS I will be getting to your other post but it may be a couple of days. My wife is going in for surgery Thurs to remove a huge tumer (none malignant), and I may not be in town Sat, and Sunday.
God bless you and your family,(God Willing) All will go absolutely smooth and she will have a quick recovery.Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,06:40) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,01:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 17 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:38) Hi BD,
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile as all in Christ are one in Christ
all that are one in Christ are one in God.But all those that are one in God accept all the messengers of God
Why would God tell us that Jesus was the last messenger if he was going to send anotehr?KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things…And why would God go to so much trouble to teach us that his covenant was to be through Isaac and Jacob, if he would later take it through Ishmael?
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
If Ishmael was to be the spokesman for God, why would God tell us –
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” [Gal 4:22-31]
Paladin,Saying “in these last days” does not mean “last messenger”
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
also once again Paul picks out things not said by God but by anyone who makes his point for it was Sarah who said:
Genesis 21:9-11 (King James Version)
9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Abraham was grieved by her decision
Genesis 21:11-13 (King James Version)
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
also
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Now the Bible was written mainly about the children of Israel but do you think that God was with Ishmael to no effect?
The seed of Abraham is only fulfilled in both of the children lest you believe that God would not keep his promise.
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Also keep in mind that the Bondwoman was freed.
Ishmael was sent out from Abraham's household in Genesis 21.He was with Isaac at the burial of Abraham in Genesis 25.
Esau later went to his uncle Ishmael for a wife from among Ishmael's daughters, in Gen 28.
Q
uote
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises.
Why do you quote laws addressed to Israel, to justify one who was never a child of Israel?
Deuteronomy was NEVER God's communication to Arabia.
And if you are going to pick and choose segments of the law to Israel, don't forget this one………… “Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.” [Deut 27:26]
God's laws and commandments were Only for Israel, and no other nation; “And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?” [Deu 4:8]
Have you returned to the temple for worship three times in every year, and kept the sabbath laws, and the laws of covenant with Jehovah? Then do not pretend to be covered by any part of his laws to the Jews.
Deuteronomy 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. {the Red…: or, Zuph}
2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;Hi BD,
Israel has no advantage over any man.
All are offered a chance to be one in Christ in the new Israel.Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,07:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,06:40) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,01:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 17 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:38) Hi BD,
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile as all in Christ are one in Christ
all that are one in Christ are one in God.But all those that are one in God accept all the messengers of God
Why would God tell us that Jesus was the last messenger if he was going to send anotehr?KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things…And why would God go to so much trouble to teach us that his covenant was to be through Isaac and Jacob, if he would later take it through Ishmael?
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
If Ishmael was to be the spokesman for God, why would God tell us –
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” [Gal 4:22-31]
Paladin,Saying “in these last days” does not mean “last messenger”
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
also once again Paul picks out things not said by God but by anyone who makes his point for it was Sarah who said:
Genesis 21:9-11 (King James Version)
9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Abraham was grieved by her decision
Genesis 21:11-13 (King James Version)
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
also
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Now the Bible was written mainly about the children of Israel but do you think that God was with Ishmael to no effect?
The seed of Abraham is only fulfilled in both of the children lest you believe that God would not keep his promise.
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Also keep in mind that the Bondwoman was freed.
Ishmael was sent out from Abraham's household in Genesis 21.He was with Isaac at the burial of Abraham in Genesis 25.
Esau later went to his
uncle Ishmael for a wife from among Ishmael's daughters, in Gen 28.Quote
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises.
Why do you quote laws addressed to Israel, to justify one who was never a child of Israel?
Deuteronomy was NEVER God's communication to Arabia.
And if you are going to pick and choose segments of the law to Israel, don't forget this one………… “Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.” [Deut 27:26]
God's laws and commandments were Only for Israel, and no other nation; “And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?” [Deu 4:8]
Have you returned to the temple for worship three times in every year, and kept the sabbath laws, and the laws of covenant with Jehovah? Then do not pretend to be covered by any part of his laws to the Jews.
Deuteronomy 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. {the Red…: or, Zuph}
2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;
Paladin,You will find that all your knowledge will short circuit running this course with me because the word of God is clear.
Please remember however that I am approaching you here with love so everytime you read what I write keep in mind that if you could here the tone of my voice it would sound soft and humble.
Now, I said even though the law of the first born was given to the Israelites do you think that it would not be suitable for All? Plus you seem to neglect that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian and yet you claim him as your own.
6) The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #132)(10) Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #140)Now tell me was Abraham a Jew or a Christian. The fact is Paladin that Abraham was one who submitted to God.
I have asked others and now I will ask you was Jesus nailed to a cross or hanged from a tree?
Was there two thieves that Mocked him or one that had compassion for him?
The fact is the gospels are true and the witnessess are not sure of everything that occured just like a real court case and the reason is this:
Matthew 26:55-57 (King James Version)
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mark 14:49-51 (King James Version)
50 And they all forsook him, and fled.
(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2009,10:58) Hi BD,
Are you sure Jesus will need your verses when judgement comes?
They claim to correct him?
Actually they do not correct Jesus at all. They reveal the clear prohecy and what happened. The verses show that God saved Jesus from death.The fact is Nick that anyway you slice it God saved Jesus from death for even according to you he did not suffer corruption in the grave but let me ask you Nick how long does it take for rigor mortis to occur?
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,10:46) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,07:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,06:40) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,01:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 17 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:38) Hi BD,
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile as all in Christ are one in Christ
all that are one in Christ are one in God.But all those that are one in God accept all the messengers of God
Why would God tell us that Jesus was the last messenger if he was going to send anotehr?KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things…And why would God go to so much trouble to teach us that his covenant was to be through Isaac and Jacob, if he would later take it through Ishmael?
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
If Ishmael was to be the spokesman for God, why would God tell us –
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” [Gal 4:22-31]
Paladin,Saying “in these last days” does not mean “last messenger”
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
also once again Paul picks out things not said by God but by anyone who makes his point for it was Sarah who said:
Genesis 21:9-11 (King James Version)
9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Abraham was grieved by her decision
Genesis 21:11-13 (King James Version)
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
also
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Now the Bible was written mainly about the children of Israel but do you think that God was with Ishmael to no effect?
The seed of Abraham is only fulfilled in both of the children lest you believe that God would not keep his promise.
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Also keep in mind that the Bond
woman was freed.
Ishmael was sent out from Abraham's household in Genesis 21.He was with Isaac at the burial of Abraham in Genesis 25.
Esau later went to his uncle Ishmael for a wife from among Ishmael's daughters, in Gen 28.
Quote
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises.
Why do you quote laws addressed to Israel, to justify one who was never a child of Israel?
Deuteronomy was NEVER God's communication to Arabia.
And if you are going to pick and choose segments of the law to Israel, don't forget this one………… “Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.” [Deut 27:26]
God's laws and commandments were Only for Israel, and no other nation; “And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?” [Deu 4:8]
Have you returned to the temple for worship three times in every year, and kept the sabbath laws, and the laws of covenant with Jehovah? Then do not pretend to be covered by any part of his laws to the Jews.
Deuteronomy 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. {the Red…: or, Zuph}
2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;
Paladin,You will find that all your knowledge will short circuit running this course with me because the word of God is clear.
Please remember however that I am approaching you here with love so everytime you read what I write keep in mind that if you could here the tone of my voice it would sound soft and humble.
Now, I said even though the law of the first born was given to the Israelites do you think that it would not be suitable for All? Plus you seem to neglect that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian and yet you claim him as your own.
6) The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #132)(10) Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #140)Now tell me was Abraham a Jew or a Christian. The fact is Paladin that Abraham was one who submitted to God.
I have asked others and now I will ask you was Jesus nailed to a cross or hanged from a tree?
Was there two thieves that Mocked him or one that had compassion for him?
The fact is the gospels are true and the witnessess are not sure of everything that occured just like a real court case and the reason is this:
Matthew 26:55-57 (King James Version)
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mark 14:49-51 (King James Version)
50 And they all forsook him, and fled.
(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
(Bodhitharta)Quote Paladin, Please remember however that I am approaching you here with love so everytime you read what I write keep in mind that if you could here the tone of my voice it would sound soft and humble. (P) If my brother in Adam would consider me his brother also, I would greet you with honor. I would rather greet you as a brother in Christ, but he is supplanted by another in your heart.
I too, respond with all humility for it is not I who am worthy, for it is God who sends me here. I am not sent to instruct, but to inform. I am a fellow heir, not a teacher of the wise. And I thirst for righteousness, not acceptance.
(Bodhitharta)
Quote Now, I said even though the law of the first born was given to the Israelites do you think that it would not be suitable for All? (P)did you miss that part where God points out that no other nation as such a law as does Israel? Do I think it would be suitable for all? What does MY humble opinion have to do with it?
God made arrangement that all who would join themselves to his law are welcome, but must enter, not just into covenant with him, but must join themselves with the Israelite covenant. They had to accept all the terms of the covenant, keep all the sacrifices, obey all the laws and commandments, and observe all the feasts and holydays.
You CANNOT usurp the laws to your own covenant. You MUST observe the whole law, IN COVENANT
Plus you seem to neglect that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian and yet you claim him as your own.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,10:46) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,07:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,06:40) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,01:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 17 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:38) Hi BD,
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile as all in Christ are one in Christ
all that are one in Christ are one in God.But all those that are one in God accept all the messengers of God
Why would God tell us that Jesus was the last messenger if he was going to send another?KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things…And why would God go to so much trouble to teach us that his covenant was to be through Isaac and Jacob, if he would later take it through Ishmael?
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
If Ishmael was to be the spokesman for God, why would God tell us –
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” [Gal 4:22-31]
Paladin,Saying “in these last days” does not mean “last messenger”
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
also once again Paul picks out things not said by God but by anyone who makes his point for it was Sarah who said:
Genesis 21:9-11 (King James Version)
9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Abraham was grieved by her decision
Genesis 21:11-13 (King James Version)
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
also
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Now the Bible was written mainly about the children of Israel but do you think that God was with Ishmael to no effect?
The seed of Abraham is only fulfilled in both of the children lest you believe that God would not keep his promise.
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Also keep in mind that the Bond
woman was freed.
Ishmael was sent out from Abraham's household in Genesis 21.He was with Isaac at the burial of Abraham in Genesis 25.
Esau later went to his uncle Ishmael for a wife from among Ishmael's daughters, in Gen 28.
Quote
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises.
Why do you quote laws addressed to Israel, to justify one who was never a child of Israel?
Deuteronomy was NEVER God's communication to Arabia.
And if you are going to pick and choose segments of the law to Israel, don't forget this one………… “Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.” [Deut 27:26]
God's laws and commandments were Only for Israel, and no other nation; “And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?” [Deu 4:8]
Have you returned to the temple for worship three times in every year, and kept the sabbath laws, and the laws of covenant with Jehovah? Then do not pretend to be covered by any part of his laws to the Jews.
Deuteronomy 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. {the Red…: or, Zuph}
2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;
Paladin,You will find that all your knowledge will short circuit running this course with me because the word of God is clear.
Please remember however that I am approaching you here with love so everytime you read what I write keep in mind that if you could here the tone of my voice it would sound soft and humble.
Now, I said even though the law of the first born was given to the Israelites do you think that it would not be suitable for All? Plus you seem to neglect that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian and yet you claim him as your own.
6) The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #132)(10) Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #140)Now tell me was Abraham a Jew or a Christian. The fact is Paladin that Abraham was one who submitted to God.
I have asked others and now I will ask you was Jesus nailed to a cross or hanged from a tree?
Was there two thieves that Mocked him or one that had compassion for him?
The fact is the gospels are true and the witnessess are not sure of everything that occured just like a real court case and the reason is this:
Matthew 26:55-57 (King James Version)
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mark 14:49-51 (King James Version)
50 And they all forsook him, and fled.
(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
(Bodhitharta)Quote Paladin, Please remember however that I am approaching you here with love so everytime you read what I write keep in mind that if you could here the tone of my voice it would sound soft and humble. (P) If my brother in Adam would consider me his brother also, I would greet you with honor. I would rather greet you as a brother in Christ, but he is supplanted by another in your heart.
I too, respond with all humility for it is not I who am worthy, for it is God who sends me here. I am not sent to instruct, but to inform. I am a fellow heir, not a teacher of the wise. And I thirst for righteousness, not acceptance.
(Bodhitharta)
Quote Now, I said even though the law of the first born was given to the Israelites do you think that it would not be suitable for All? (P)did you miss that part where God points out that no other nation as such a law as does Israel? Do I think it would be suitable for all? What does MY humble opinion have to do with it?
God made arrangement that all who would join themselves to his law are welcome, but must enter, not just into covenant with him, but must join themselves with the Israelite covenant. They had to accept all the terms of the covenant, keep all the sacrifices, obey all the laws and commandments, and observe all the feasts and holydays.
You CANNOT usurp God's laws to your own covenant. You MUST observe the whole law, IN COVENANT with Jehovah THROUGH Israel. It is not a matter of option, but of scripture.
(Bodhitharta)
Plus you seem to neglect that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian and yet you claim him as your own.
Even the children of Israel were not “Jews” until they returned from Assyrian captivity and settled in Judea, which is the reason they are called “Jews,” originally “Judeans.”
But Abram was the first person designated “The Hebrew; Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told ABRAM THE HEBREW; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
“Hebrew” means “He who crossed the river,” “River crosser,”
or “From beyond,” depending upon which source you choose.But one thi
ns is certain, Abraham, though not a Jew, was certainly the first Hebrew in scripture. Since this applied to the progenitor Abraham, his heirs would also be Hebrews, including Ishmael, except for the fact God said the covenant would be through Isaac, and Jacob.This is why Ishmael and Esau, son and grandson of Abraham, are never addressed as Hebrews, nor are they considered “in covenant” with Jehovah.
I do not mean to belittle nor to cast dispersion on you, I simply address the facts for your honest consideration. You address scripture, I address a different part of scripture than you proffer because your proffer does not tell enough of the story to ascertain the truth of what God wants you to understand.
I very much appreciate the tenor of your post. I could wish that all my brothers in Adam were so circumspect in rendition.
Paladin said to bodhitharta:
Quote I very much appreciate the tenor of your post. I could wish that all my brothers in Adam were so circumspect in rendition. So our brotherhood is in Adam rather than in Christ? That's a new one
thinker
Quote (Paladin @ June 24 2009,02:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,10:46) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,07:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 18 2009,06:40) Quote (Paladin @ June 18 2009,01:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 17 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:38) Hi BD,
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile as all in Christ are one in Christ
all that are one in Christ are one in God.But all those that are one in God accept all the messengers of God
Why would God tell us that Jesus was the last messenger if he was going to send another?KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things…And why would God go to so much trouble to teach us that his covenant was to be through Isaac and Jacob, if he would later take it through Ishmael?
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
If Ishmael was to be the spokesman for God, why would God tell us –
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” [Gal 4:22-31]
Paladin,Saying “in these last days” does not mean “last messenger”
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises
Genesis 16:2-4 (King James Version)
2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
also once again Paul picks out things not said by God but by anyone who makes his point for it was Sarah who said:
Genesis 21:9-11 (King James Version)
9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Abraham was grieved by her decision
Genesis 21:11-13 (King James Version)
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
also
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Now the Bible was written mainly about the children of Israel but do you think that God was with Ishmael to no effect?
The seed of Abraham is only fulfilled in both of the children lest you believe that God would not keep his promise.
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishma
el, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.Also keep in mind that the Bondwoman was freed.
Ishmael was sent out from Abraham's household in Genesis 21.He was with Isaac at the burial of Abraham in Genesis 25.
Esau later went to his uncle Ishmael for a wife from among Ishmael's daughters, in Gen 28.
Quote
Also the Law says that the actual firstborn must get justice and a double reward “Ishmael” was the actual firstborn.Deuteronomy 21:15-17 (King James Version)
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
So that is what God wanted and Hagar was the Wife of Abraham not a Bondwoman to him, she was a bondwoman until sarah made her the wife of Abraham. But, even if she was a bondwoman God is just and keeps His promises.
Why do you quote laws addressed to Israel, to justify one who was never a child of Israel?
Deuteronomy was NEVER God's communication to Arabia.
And if you are going to pick and choose segments of the law to Israel, don't forget this one………… “Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.” [Deut 27:26]
God's laws and commandments were Only for Israel, and no other nation; “And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?” [Deu 4:8]
Have you returned to the temple for worship three times in every year, and kept the sabbath laws, and the laws of covenant with Jehovah? Then do not pretend to be covered by any part of his laws to the Jews.
Deuteronomy 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. {the Red…: or, Zuph}
2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;
Paladin,You will find that all your knowledge will short circuit running this course with me because the word of God is clear.
Please remember however that I am approaching you here with love so everytime you read what I write keep in mind that if you could here the tone of my voice it would sound soft and humble.
Now, I said even though the law of the first born was given to the Israelites do you think that it would not be suitable for All? Plus you seem to neglect that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian and yet you claim him as your own.
6) The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #132)(10) Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #140)Now tell me was Abraham a Jew or a Christian. The fact is Paladin that Abraham was one who submitted to God.
I have asked others and now I will ask you was Jesus nailed to a cross or hanged from a tree?
Was there two thieves that Mocked him or one that had compassion for him?
The fact is the gospels are true and the witnessess are not sure of everything that occured just like a real court case and the reason is this:
Matthew 26:55-57 (King James Version)
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mark 14:49-51 (King James Version)
50 And they all forsook him, and fled.
(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
(Bodhitharta)Quote Paladin, Please remember however that I am approaching you here with love so everytime you read what I write keep in mind that if you could here the tone of my voice it would sound soft and humble. (P) If my brother in Adam would consider me his brother also, I would greet you with honor. I would rather greet you as a brother in Christ, but he is supplanted by another in your heart.
I too, respond with all humility for it is not I who am worthy, for it is God who sends me here. I am not sent to instruct, but to inform. I am a fellow heir, not a teacher of the wise. And I thirst for righteousness, not acceptance.
(Bodhitharta)
Quote Now, I said even though the law of the first born was given to the Israelites do you think that it would not be suitable for All? (P)did you miss that part where God points out that no other nation as such a law as does Israel? Do I think it would be suitable for all? What does MY humble opinion have to do with it?
God made arrangement that all who would join themselves to his law are welcome, but must enter, not just into covenant with him, but must join themselves with the Israelite covenant. They had to accept all the terms of the covenant, keep all the sacrifices, obey all the laws and commandments, and observe all the feasts and holydays.
You CANNOT usurp God's laws to your own covenant. You MUST observe the whole law, IN COVENANT with Jehovah THROUGH Israel. It is not a matter of option, but of scripture.
(Bodhitharta)
Plus you seem to neglect that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian and yet you claim him as your own.
Even the children of Israel were not “Jews” until they returned from Assyrian captivity and settled in Judea, which is the reason they are called “Jews,” originally “Judeans.”
But Abram was the first person designated “The Hebrew; Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told ABRAM THE HEBREW; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of A
ner: and these were confederate with Abram.“Hebrew” means “He who crossed the river,” “River crosser,”
or “From beyond,” depending upon which source you choose.But one thins is certain, Abraham, though not a Jew, was certainly the first Hebrew in scripture. Since this applied to the progenitor Abraham, his heirs would also be Hebrews, including Ishmael, except for the fact God said the covenant would be through Isaac, and Jacob.
This is why Ishmael and Esau, son and grandson of Abraham, are never addressed as Hebrews, nor are they considered “in covenant” with Jehovah.
I do not mean to belittle nor to cast dispersion on you, I simply address the facts for your honest consideration. You address scripture, I address a different part of scripture than you proffer because your proffer does not tell enough of the story to ascertain the truth of what God wants you to understand.
I very much appreciate the tenor of your post. I could wish that all my brothers in Adam were so circumspect in rendition.
Why would you not meet me as your brother in Christ? You seem to not understand the nature of Christ for if Christ is in you then you should submit to the Father as he does.If you believe that Christ has reconciled you to the Father then why is it you don't worship the Father directly? It seems to me that many here are acting as though the work of Christ is not finished although he said it is.
If you are co-heirs with Christ then you should be able to approach God as Christ does. Jesus even said:
John 16:25-27 (King James Version)
25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
previous to this statement Jesus said he would pray for them but here Jesus is telling them that they have or could have direct access to God and this is ISLAM reconciliation to God in Peace All Muslims Love Jesus and Jesus is mentioned in the Quran 5 times as much as Muhammad but I am not Just a Muslim I am a person who teaches Progressive revelation but not being bound to any religion I believe in all God has sent down to us. The whole story is not in the Bible and as I keep saying the Bible is a collection of books. The Jews reject the NT outright and consider the gospels the story of a false prophet. The Christians reject the Quran outright and consider the Quran a book from a false prophet but in reverse The Quran acknowledges all what came before it and the NT acknowledges all that came before it.
Christians know that the NT is not about a False Prophet and Muslims know that the Quran didn't come from a false prophet.
Ishmael was in the original covenant of God even before Isaac was born:
Genesis 17 (King James Version)
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Notice this is called an everlasting covenant one which Paul said didn't apply to the gentiles.
Ishmael the son of the Hebrew Abraham was circumcised before Isaac was born so Ishmael certainly was entered into an everlasting Covenant with God Isaac was entered into an additional covenant.
Muslims and Jews are circumcised to this day keeping this EVERLASTING COVENANT that God says the uncircumcised should be cut off from his people because he has broken the covenant.
Being very intelligent and studious I know that you will review this in all vigor and honesty. Have at it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,05:32) Hi BD,
Circumcision itself saved nobody.
God said it is an EVERLASTING COVENANT of people who belong to HIM.Do you now doubt God Himself?
Hi BD,
Circumcision saves nobody or the doctors would be busy doing them.
Childbearing likewise does not save the heathen despite what Paul taught the saints in 1 tim 2.
Again Simon Magus was not saved by the new circumcision of water baptism as the actions of men are useless without the work of God.
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