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Is Jesus Christ the logos of God? Or is that a doctrine of men accomplished by the working of Satan?
SATAN STRIKES
I. Satan struck. He had “lost the big one” and was focused on developing some way to keep men from following God's new testament record of his new covenant. So he considered how he could convince man that there is a “better way” to teach sinners and new converts about this way of life called
“Christianity.” He appealed to man's ego, man's sense of self, man's appreciation of his own sense of what's logical.“When you teach new people about Christianity, begin with the life of Christ, the logical place to begin,” was his message. And the leaders bought it. It appealed to their sense of selfworth, and also appealed to their own self interest as teachers, to come up with a new way to approach the truth of the gospels.
It was logical, it was written, and it was chronoligically real. Which is precisely why it should have been suspect in the first place. Christianity is a matter of faith, not logic.
And “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the logos of God.” [Rom 10:17] “Faith” is not a product of man's logic, it is a result of God's word working in Man's heart to convict and convince Man of his need for Salvation.
Which brings us to the next step in understanding what Satan accomplished.
“PERSON” OR “PERSONIFICATION?”
II. Is there a difference between a “person” and a “personification?”According to Webster's new International Dictionary, a “person” is a rational, self-conscious being.
To “Personify” is to attribute human characteristic or nature to an inanimate object or to an abstraction.An example of “personification” is found in the sixtieth anniversary issue of Life Magazine, page 42, in which is stated – “Colonel Charles Lindbergh, who flew solo from the North American continent to Europe, is the American Dream made flesh.”
Now, I think it safe to say, we still recognize there is an “American Dream.” And that the American Dream can still be personalized and personified and lived among men to this day. Barack Hussein Obama is an example of one for whom the American Dream has become flesh.
Was Jesus the “Logos” who “became flesh?”
Is the “person” of the Logos of God established in scripture, or is it rather that the logos was “Personified” similar to the example of Colonel Charles Lindbergh, a personification of the American Dream, in which the American Dream became flesh.
III. PERSON
Is there a standard established in scripture, by which a “person” can be identified or defined, or to put it another way, What does scripture require to be considered a “person?”In scripture, a person is equivalent to a soul, which is comprised of a spirit in a body. When God breathed into Adam the “breath of life” Adam “became a living soul.” [Gen 2:7]
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”[Gen 2:7]
Death is a separation of the spirit from the body: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” [Ecc 12:7]
Seventy “souls” went into Egypt: “all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.” [Gen 46:27]
Seventy “persons” went into Egypt: “Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons;”[Deu 10:22]
Eight “persons” went into the ark: “In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;” [Gen 7:13]
Eight “souls” were saved in the ark; “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was apreparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
A logical conclusion from scripture is, “a person” is equivalent to “a soul.”
IDENTITY
IV. Which brings us to the concept of this essay. Can it be shown anywhere in scripture, that a “person” is ever identified as the logos of God?It must then be defined and made clear what it means to say “a person is identified as…”
It means to identify a person as a thing other than simply a reference to a person “named” a thing. For example, in Israel, the name of a man who refused to build up his brother's house, is identified as “the house of him that hath his shoe loosed.”
It came about this way; “If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall goin unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. 6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.
7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. 8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; 9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. 10 And his name shall be called in Israel, “The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.”[Deu 25:5-10]
In the example above, a name is tied by reference to a man, for the deeds of the man. The man is not the man's deeds, nor is the man the name he is given. It is a name given to the man based on his deeds. It is a name recognized by all who hear it, as referencing one who is identified as a man who refused to build up his dead brother's house.
Deeds often brought name references as reminders of deeds: A city was called by a name as a memorial of deeds done therein: “Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because…”[ Gen 11:9]
Edomites were named for a vegetable eaten by their forefather, Esau: “And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint: 30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.” [Gen 25:29-30]
Isaac named a well “Sheba” to remind his people of an oath: “And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee; 29 That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD. 30 And he made them a feast, and they did eat and drink. 31 And they rose up betimes in the morning, and sware one to another: and Isaac sent them away, and they departed from him in peace. 32 And it came to pass the same day, that Isaac's servants came, and told him concerning the well which they had digged, and said unto him, We have found water. 33 And he called it Shebah: therefore the name of the city is Beersheba unto this day.[Gen 26:28-33]
Several names in scripture hold significance for reasons having nothing to do with who the namebearer is.
“And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. 32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. {Reuben: that is, See a son} 33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon. {Simeon: that is
, Hearing} 34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. {Levi: that is, Joined} 35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing. {Judah: that is, Praise}”[Gen 29:31-35]Even Rachel understood the value of “naming” for an event, or as a reminder: “And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan. {Dan: that is, Judging}” [Gen 30:6]
NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME
V. God established a name which is above every name when he “magnified thy word above all thy name.” [Psa 138:2]God prophesied: “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]
And God promised His Messiah he would be exalted, and given a name above every name: “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name”[Phil 2:9] At what point in scripture and a corresponding point in human history do these two events come together in the narrative account?
We pause first to clarify a point. What is meant by “gave” him a name above every name?” Is it considered “given” at that point at which God reveals it to him? Or is it only “given” when he actually “receives” it? Jesus is the only one who knew the “new name” that is to be given to him, and which he is going to write on the saints who overcome.
So according to this view, Jesus “receives” the new name when he is given the revelation as to what the “new name” is to be. Clearly, he has this knowledge in Rev 3:12, but it is not yet revealed to mankind in general, nor to the saints specifically. Even in Rev 19:12-13 he does not tell us he has received the new name, only tells us what that name will be when he does receive it.
VI. LOGOS OF GOD
In 48 A.D., Paul explained to the whole world, a mystery, a concept that was in God's mind, for his people: “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [Gal 2:20]Twelve years later, in 60 A.D. Paul says he was given a commision to “FULFILL THE WORD OF GOD,” and he then tells us he preached this mystery TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” [Col 1:24]
PAUL SAYS HIS MINISTERY WAS “TO FULFILL THE LOGOS [WORD] OF GOD:”
“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to FULFILL THE LOGOS [WORD] OF GOD; Paul goes on to explain that the word of God was hidden in a mystery, from ages and generations: 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;” [Col 1:25-27]And Paul In explaining that which was mystery from ages and generations, tells us that this mystery, this “WORD [LOGOS] OF GOD” is “CHRIST LIVING IN YOU,” [Gal 2:20] and that this (“christ in you”) is the hope of glory. “which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:” [Col 1:23-28]
So according to Paul, there was a mystery called “logos of God”, hidden from ages and from generations, and it consisted of a concept of the saints losing themselves in Christ so thoroughly, it was no longer them living their life, but Christ living in them. When others see this, they will seek God so they also will have this blessed life, and in turn, be a blessing to yet others.
That was the focus and scope of the “word of God” THAT is when “the logos” was personified among men. THAT mission, of giving that concept to men, was given to the Apostle Paul.
God had already assigned to this mystery, glory among the gentiles, and assigned it to Paul to spread through preaching: “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;” [Col 1:27]
VII. “WORD OF GOD” TIED TO “NAME” GIVEN TO JESUS
Remember back up the page when God “placed his word above his name:” “for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” [Psa 138:2]Not until 69 A.D. was the “word of God” tied to Jesus, in the form of a name given. “The word of God” is NOT who Jesus was. It is a NEW NAME Jesus was GIVEN. And the record of this transaction was not made public until 69 A.D. So it was historically impossible for the New Testament generation of Christians (First century) to have had such an understanding that “Jesus is the word of God.”
AT LEAST 27 years (two generations) passed between the ascension of Jesus and John's writing of the apokolypse, in which he tells us of a NEW NAME Jesus has, but doesn't yet reveal what it is;
John, in the Apokolypse, references a “NEW NAME” –
“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.” [Rev 3:12]VIII. NEW NAME
Notice Three significant things about this “new name:”
1) It is 69 a.d. when John speaks of it as a “New name” -[onoma kainon] kainon is an accusative neuter adjective modifying the noun onoma, and means “new, not there before, not yet used.”2) Jesus is going to “write his new name” on “Him that overcometh.” The significance of this is found in the practice of “branding” possessions, such as cattle, lambs, etc. He is marking his people with a brand of ownership. Just as God is going to write his new name on Jesus [Rev 19:12-13] He is “going to write his new name” on the saints.[Rev 3:12]
3) The events of Rev 19 are yet future, as unfilfilled prophecy. So the “New Name” has yet to be given to Jesus. It could not therefore, have been a name applied to Jesus in John's gospel. Nor could it be a name “from eternity” nor “from the beginning of creation” as some claim, as it is by definition a “new, unused name.” John tells us in 69 a.d. that it is an unknown name, “which NO MAN KNEW but He himself.”
John only reveals what this “new name” is to be, not when it is to be applied: this name Jesus was given which NO MAN KNEW but he HIMSELF – “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.” [Rev 19:11-13]
“THE WORD OF GOD” then, is a name which God raised to a position above his own Holy Name, and now in prophecy, appoints in glory to his son, the “new name” which is “above every name” which is to be written on his people. And THIS is how the first generation of Christians had it presented to their understanding.
And Paul wrote this [61 a.d.] 27 years before John's statement in John 1:1 [96 a.d.], so people already knew that “word of God” is a name above every name, to be given to Jesus at some future time, to remind people of this “mystery made known” in “Christ living in the saints.” [The “personification of the logos”]
IX. “PERSONIFICATION”
Remember the example above of the “personification” of the American dream? The whole point there is to demonstrate how the development of the personification of the Logos was understood by the “first-generation” Christians.Remember the issue to be resolved? “Can it be shown anywhere in scripture, that a “person” is ever referenced as the logos of God? It has been shown that there is no “pe
rson” ever addressed as being the word of God.It has been demonstrated how the American dream was personified using the same language John used in John 1:14, “The American dream was made flesh” in the person of Barack Hussein Obama. The word of God was made flesh in the persons of the saints as they so lived life that it is no longer they that live, but Christ living in them.
II Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Jesus is never addressed nor referenced as “the word of God.” He is often referenced as “the Lamb of God” and “the Son of God,” but never as “the Word of God.” THAT is a NEW name he is to be given. AND it is a name he will write on his people. So to say Jesus is the logos of God is misleading, because it is a new, unused name written, both on Jesus, [Rev 3:12] AND on his people BY Jesus. [Rev19:13]
“Logos” has a simple meaning in the Greek, and John did not intend to start the controversy that has arisen over his use of logos in John 1:1-3. The theologians, stuck in a trinity theology, insisted that logos take on a new meaning in the last book written of the New Testament of the bible; insisting their interpretation is correct, and claiming John's language is “ambiguous”, and “a mystery,” and something that cannot be understood by the “finite mind of man”
John's language is NOT ambiguous; the mystery was explained by Paul; and the mind of man is not finite, it is made in the image of God, and is limitless. Finite means “measurable; i.e., capable of being counted.” The diversity of the mind of man does not fit that parameter.
X. CHRIST IN YOU = JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN FLESH
Paul had already preached the logos of God to the world, it was already understood to reference “Christ in you, the hope of glory” and it was already personified in the saints, had become flesh in those same saints, and dwelled among men, also in those same saints.I John 4:2 uses Eleeluthota, a perfect active participle, which emphasizes the ongoing result from a past action. And it says “Jesus Christ is come in flesh” NOT “in THE flesh.” It is not speaking of some alleged “incarnation” of a pre-existent spirit or deity.
This has to do with the fact that it is no longer you that lives, but Jesus “liveth in you.” Look at 2 Cor 13:5 “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ IS IN YOU, except ye be reprobates?” CHRIST IS PRESENTLY LIVING IN HIS SAINTS. THAT is paramount to salvation. And THAT is the meaning inherent in the passage's meaning in John's epistles.
Similarly in 2 John 7, erxomenon = (exercomai) vppnam-s participle; present; middle or passive deponent; accusative;masculine;s.
II John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [NOTE: It does NOT say “in THE flesh”]
Look at what Paul teaches – Gal 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in *the flesh I live by *the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [NOTE: The definite articles are missing in the Greek in these two instances.]
Christ “LIVETH” – NOT LIVED – LIVETH in me.
zee = verb, indicative, present active; emoi = dative noun; Xristos = nominative singularThe life that I NOW LIVE – present active, is Christ presently actively living in me.
To say “came” or “has come” completely changes the complexity of the message to a nonentity. Jesus is alive and well and living in the flesh of his saints, today. THAT is the message of John's epistles.
It matter not to me at all, if John was addressing gnostics, his message remains one of telling us Christ lives in my flesh, as I submit my flesh to him as my example.
Paul's thesis on the logos of God being personified in the saints as we no longer live, but Christ lives in us, remains as true today as it was when Paul penned it. I do not reference the flesh of the body in which Jesus walked and taught and died; I reference the flesh in which '”Christ lives unto this day, in that of his saints. Christ “is come” (present passive)[II John 7]; “is come” perfect active” and now is in the flesh of his saints; and present active [Gal 2:20]. It is covered from every angle by both John's epistles and Paul's writings.
XI. “GOD BECAME FLESH” WAS NOT AN ISSUE
So until at least 69 a.d., the saints had no idea of Jesus being named “The word of God” at some future point in time. It was NOT an issue.Then, when John wrote his epistle in 96 a.d., and began with “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God,” There was absolutely NO issue of Jesus being the word of God, because it was already understood for over sixty years, that the saints, living so that it was not they who lived, but Christ living in them, was the personification of the word of God, and the word of God was personified in the saints, and dwelled among men. The logos concept was already understood prior to John's gospel.
It was left to later generations, who studied the new testament from the standpoint of “life of Christ” FIRST, who began to understand John's gospel to reference an preexistent Jesus who somehow became a human.
If the books are studied in the order in which they were revealed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they CANNOT be understood to reference a preexistent Jesus.
Paladin………..I also do not believe Jesus preexisted his Berth, and If a person doesn't see Jesus as a purely flesh and blood person like us he or she just doesn't see Jesus, Jesus had the (CHRISTOS) or anointing and we who have been given the same SPIRIT also have the Christos in Us, So as He is so are we. I believe this is what Paul meant by “CHRIST” in YOU, it was the same anointing in Him that is in US. I also believe that we also shall become the WORD even as Jesus will be. Good POST gives us much to think about. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Hi Paladin and welcome!
Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2009,08:11)
It has been demonstrated how the American dream was personified using the same language John used in John 1:14, “The American dream was made flesh” in the person of Barack Hussein Obama.
That depends on who you talk to. Stick around for you will see that many here will disagree with you. Personally I think that “The American nightmare was made flesh” in the person of Barack Husein Obama!
Your apologetic exegesis is nothing new but just another version of the same ole tired argument of the Arianistic, Unitarian theology. This debate has been going on since the first century and has been a constant attack against the truth of the scriptures IMO.
Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2009,08:11)
The word of God was made flesh in the persons of the saints as they so lived life that it is no longer they that live, but Christ living in them.
I do not think that the Apostle John would appreciate your explanation of his prologue. First of all John doesn’t use the term “the word “OF” God became flesh”.Or John 1:1 would read…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (“OF God”) was God.
But instead it reads…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “THE WORD WAS GOD”. “ HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING. ”. John 1:1
”The Word became flesh (not word of God) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
It seems like a sleight of hand on your part to imply John 1:14 is Christ made flesh in his people, unless you think that we also are the “one and only who came from the Father full of grace and truth as John 1:14 states.
Contextually you are misleading.
John clarifies his meaning in the next verse when he says…
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me *BECAUSE HE WAS BEFORE ME*.' “From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. John 1:15, 16
Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2009,08:11) Or is that a doctrine of men accomplished by the working of Satan?
Could it be that these words apply to you?
Remember it was this same John that recorded Thomas words when he said…
And Thomas answered and “SAID UNTO HIM”, My Lord and my God. John 20:28
The key words are “SAID UNTO HIM”. The literal translation is…
“THE LORD OF ME AND THE GOD OF ME”
Neither John nor Jesus corrected him did they? John like Thomas knew who the Word was in John 1:1.
A better explanation of John 1:1 is found here…
Blessings! WJ
Paladin said:
Quote The man is not the man's deeds, nor is the man the name he is given. It is a name given to the man based on his deeds. It is a name recognized by all who hear it, as referencing one who is identified as a man who refused to build up his dead brother's house. The citation above establishes that the Word was a Person. Paladin in his attempt to disprove that the Word was a person actually proves it. He said,
Quote …It is a name given to the man based on his deeds. Jesus was called the “Word” because He came in the flesh and spoke the words of God.
Quote No man has comprehended God at any time, except the only begotten Son who was in the bosom of the Father, he has EXPLAINED Him (!:18) The Word became flesh and “explained” God to men. Thus He was called the “Word” in accordance with Paladin's own words, “It is a name given to the man based on his deeds”. So Paladin joins our group and comes right out of the gate contradicting himself up and down all over the place. He will soon find out that he is dealing with some here who are in the big leagues.
thinker
Quote (Gene @ May 29 2009,02:52) Paladin………..I also do not believe Jesus preexisted his Berth, and If a person doesn't see Jesus as a purely flesh and blood person like us he or she just doesn't see Jesus, Jesus had the (CHRISTOS) or anointing and we who have been given the same SPIRIT also have the Christos in Us, So as He is so are we. I believe this is what Paul meant by “CHRIST” in YOU, it was the same anointing in Him that is in US. I also believe that we also shall become the WORD even as Jesus will be. Good POST gives us much to think about. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
[Gene] Paladin………..I also do not believe Jesus preexisted his Berth, and If a person doesn't see Jesus as a purely flesh and blood person like us he or she just doesn't see Jesus, Jesus had the (CHRISTOS) or anointing and we who have been given the same SPIRIT also have the Christos in Us, So as He is so are we. [/quote]Thank you Gene, for that warm welcome. You are correct about the Xristos in us, because the priests, kings, and prophets of the Old Testament were designated with the same designations as was Jesus. They were “the anointed of God” just as Jesus is “The Christ of God.”
King David spoke of King Saul to Abner, calling Saul “ton kurion sou ton basilea” [thy Lord the king]; and “ton Xriston Kuriou,” The anointed of the Lord, which offices Saul held till his death. The appointment is for life. At one's death, the office ceases and his replacement takes over both the offices and the titles….
1 Sam 26:15 And David said to Abner, Art not thou a valiant man? and who is like to thee in Israel? wherefore then hast thou not kept ton Kurion sou ton basilea [thy lord the king]? for there came one of the people in to destroy ton basilea Kurion sou [the king thy lord]. 16 This thing is not good that thou hast done. As the LORD liveth, ye are worthy to die, ye who guard ton bassilea kurion [your Lord the king], ton Criston kuriou [the anointed of the Lord]. And now see where the king's spear is, and the cruse of water that was at his head.
But Luke calls Jesus “ton Xriston Kuriou” [The Lord's anointed]. Jesus was the Lord's anointed during his lifetime. At his death, the office ceased.
Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen ton Xriston Kuriou [The Lord's Christ].Quote I believe this is what Paul meant by “CHRIST” in YOU, it was the same anointing in Him that is in US. I also believe that we also shall become the WORD even as Jesus will be. Good POST gives us much to think about. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….geneTHAT is why it is so important that people at least get the opportunity to turn it down. If they want to reject this information, it is on their head. If I refuse to post it, it is on my head.
Paladin………I also have felt the same way, if i say it, it is no longer on Me , The Lord can't say what did you do with the Talent or the information i gave you, It sets us free of not passing it on. I also agree with you that unless you see Jesus as (EXACTLY) like one of us, you simply don't see Jesus. The false teachings of the Apostate Church has moved Jesus' identity away from us , by their false teaching of TRINITY and PREEXISTENCES. Good Posts and welcome. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Paladin said:
Quote Thank you Gene, for that warm welcome. You are correct about the Xristos in us, because the priests, kings, and prophets of the Old Testament were designated with the same designations as was Jesus. They were “the anointed of God” just as Jesus is “The Christ of God.” King David spoke of King Saul to Abner, calling Saul “ton kurion sou ton basilea” [thy Lord the king]; and “ton Xriston Kuriou,” The anointed of the Lord, which offices Saul held till his death. The appointment is for life. At one's death, the office ceases and his replacement takes over both the offices and the titles….
To All,
There is one big problemo with Paladin's analysis. None of the prophets, kings or priests were exalted to God's right hand. ONLY Jesus was exalted to God's right hand. King David called Christ His “Lord”,Quote The LORD said unto my Lord, “Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool” (Psalm 110) There is another big problemo with Paladin's view. No prophet, priest or king was ever given a name that is “so much superior” to the angels (Hebrews 1:3). ONLY Jesus has a name that is ABOVE every name (Philippians 2). And according to Paladin a man's name is according to His deeds. Paladin said,
Quote It is a name given to the man based on his deeds” Therefore, on the basis of his deeds Jesus' name is far above all the prophets, priests, kings and angels.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2009,04:05) Hi Paladin and welcome! Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2009,08:11)
It has been demonstrated how the American dream was personified using the same language John used in John 1:14, “The American dream was made flesh” in the person of Barack Hussein Obama. That depends on who you talk to. Stick around for you will see that many here will disagree with you. Personally I think that “The American nightmare was made flesh” in the person of Barack Husein Obama!
Your apologetic exegesis is nothing new but just another version of the same ole tired argument of the Arianistic, Unitarian theology. This debate has been going on since the first century and has been a constant attack against the truth of the scriptures IMO.
Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2009,08:11)
The word of God was made flesh in the persons of the saints as they so lived life that it is no longer they that live, but Christ living in them.
I do not think that the Apostle John would appreciate your explanation of his prologue. First of all John doesn’t use the term “the word “OF” God became flesh”.Or John 1:1 would read…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (“OF God”) was God.
But instead it reads…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “THE WORD WAS GOD”. “ HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING. ”. John 1:1
”The Word became flesh (not word of God) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
It seems like a sleight of hand on your part to imply John 1:14 is Christ made flesh in his people, unless you think that we also are the “one and only who came from the Father full of grace and truth as John 1:14 states.
Contextually you are misleading.
John clarifies his meaning in the next verse when he says…
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me *BECAUSE HE WAS BEFORE ME*.' “From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. John 1:15, 16
Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2009,08:11) Or is that a doctrine of men accomplished by the working of Satan?
Could it be that these words apply to you?Remember it was this same John that recorded Thomas words when he said…
And Thomas answered and “SAID UNTO HIM”, My Lord and my God. John 20:28
The key words are “SAID UNTO HIM”. The literal translation is…
“THE LORD OF ME AND THE GOD OF ME”
Neither John nor Jesus corrected him did they? John like Thomas knew who the Word was in John 1:1.
A better explanation of John 1:1 is found here…
Blessings! WJ
Quote (WJ) Hi Paladin and welcome! (P) Thank you. I feel welcome.
Quote (P)
It has been demonstrated how the American dream was personified using the same language John used in John 1:14, “The American dream was made flesh” in the person of Barack Hussein Obama.That depends on who you talk to. Stick around for you will see that many here will disagree with you.
Personally I think that “The American nightmare was made flesh” in the person of Barack Husein Obama!
With THAT I would not argue. The point remains however, that the president made the American opportunity come to fruition, which is what the “American dream” is all about. And the personification of the American Dream, is clearly understood by all when it is articulated.
Quote (WJ) Your apologetic exegesis is nothing new but just another version of the same ole tired argument of the Arianistic, Unitarian theology. The simple fact that “Orthodoxy” has condemned a position from early years, goes to demonstrate my point, doesn't it?
If you will look at what I said, instead of labeling it, you will find that Arius missed it, as well as Sabellius, and a host of others, which is not surprising, since they were under the immense pressure of religious oppression by that same
“orthodoxy” to whom they should have been able to turn in times of distress; And couldn't.Quote
This debate has been going on since the first century and has been a constant attack against the truth of the scriptures IMO.Agreed! But it is not this position that is against the scriptures. It is the so called “orthodox” position which was forced on the church when 315 Bishops attended the council at Nicea, and voted on the Emperor's “new orthodoxy.” Who was going to vote on THAT one against the herisy?
Remember, out of 1800 Bishops invited, only 325 attended. Ever wonder why? They already HAD a taste of Rome's generosity, and didn't want more. Look it up. It is historical fact.
Quote (P)
The word of God was made flesh in the persons of the saints as they so lived life that it is no longer they that live, but Christ living in them.(WJ) I do not think that the Apostle John would appreciate your explanation of his prologue. First of all John doesn’t use the term “the word “OF” God became flesh”.
Or John 1:1 would read… In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (“OF God”) was God.
But instead it reads… In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “THE WORD WAS GOD”. “ HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING. ”. J
ohn 1:1Very Good WJ, you CAN read what John says. The question for you though, is can you read what I said? I did not say John's prologue did anything. I did not mention John's prologue. I referenced Paul's words from Col 1:25-27, and Paul DOES say the “logos of God” is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And I also said, THAT is the personification of the logos of God. I DID NOT SAY “that is what John said.”
And you are not responding to the time line of John's gospel, which COULD NOT be identifying Jesus as God's logos. It was ALREADY understood to reference “Christ in you,” as outlined by Paul's writings. John could NOT have referenced Jesus as the “logos of God,” in 96 a.d. becasue John had already told the saints of the “NEW NAME” that was to be given to resurrected Christ, at some FUTURE point in time. And this
“NEW NAME” is a name not previously know, it is new in the sense of [Acts 17:21] “For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some [kainoteron = accusative neuter singular comparative adjective] NEW thing.”Now, this has been in scripture for over nineteen hundred years, and you will find this argument NOWHERE. You claim it is a rehash of Arionism, and the monotheistic argument. Where? It cannot be found in any of those histories. And WHY? Because they did not make this argument. They came close, but they did not make this argument.
Paul warned the Christians about divisive teachings in I Cor when he accused them of being divided. He also warned the Elders at Ephesus, of the “grievous wolves” that had ALREADY entered the flock to devour the flock of God. And he warned of the wiles of Satan, which were already at work in the church. All I have done is find the key to what happened.
You have addressed none of the issues raise din my post, but rather have usurped the post to teach “orthodoxy,” by pretending I referenced John's “prologue” which I did not do.
Quote ”The Word became flesh (not word of God) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 It seems like a sleight of hand on your part to imply John 1:14 is Christ made flesh in his people, unless you think that we also are the “one and only who came from the Father full of grace and truth as John 1:14 states. Contextually you are misleading.
If you will really concentrate on what it is John is saying you will get an entirely different understanding. He begins by telling us something about the logos. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.” So far, John has said nothing about “HE” or “HIM” because the logos is articulated, and has not been personalized. For almost fifteen hundred years, it was understood that the logos was “IT.”
The Tyndale Bible (1525); “the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it.”
Great Bible (1539); “the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it.”
Geneva Bible (1560); “the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it.”
Bishops' Bible (1568) “the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it.”
Douay Rheims (1582) has “This was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him” Which violates the rules of Greek grammar, as you well know. It changes the reference from “it” to “Him” without an entecedent person.
KJV (1611); RV (1881) (which became ASV 1901) has it “the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him;” making the same error the Catholics did, to accomodate a doctrinal bias.
Finally, the RSV (1946) changes it to read “He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him” changing the referent “it” to “he” in verse two instead of waiting till verse three. It is only a matter of time till some translation comes out that says “created” by him. But it is not in the Greek.
As for the alleged “creative work” in John's so called “Prologue”
In the language. “Were made, Was made, has been made” are incorrectly understood to mean originally created. It does NOT. The word John used means to become, come to pass, happen. In the New Testament it is NEVER translated “create” because it does not mean create. It does not say “create, created” in John's account either. It is a misunderstanding of how the term “ginomai” is translated “made.”Do you understand a creation to take place if I tell you “Pilate and Herod were made friends.” Do you understand that Pilate and Herod were enemies, and “BECAME” friends? It is not a creation. It is a becoming of somehting, in relation to what it was, or what was promised.
John is referencing what has become, from the standpoint of what the Chrsitian community understood. It is comparable to saying “look at what has resulted” from the logos of God being applied to the original creation.” God created, Jesus died, and everything “became” in a new relationship to God as a result of Jesus' death.
Look how the word is used in other scripture, never “create.”
Mat 7:28; 9:10; 11:1; “came to pass”
Mat 5:18 till all be “fulfilled”
Mat 6:10 thy will be “done”
Mat 8:16 when the evening was “come”
Mat 8:24 a tempest “arose” in the sea
Mat 9:16 the rent is “made” worse
Mat 13:21 persecution “ariseth”
Mat 13:22 “become” unfruitful
Mat 13:32 (seed) “becometh” a tree
Mat 18:3 (be converted) and “become” as little children
Mat 18:19 it “shall be done” (become)
Mat 21:4 all this was “done” that it might be fulfilled (spoken prophecy)
Mat 21:19 let no fruit “grow” on thee
Mat 21:42 this is the Lord's “doing”
Mat 23:15 make one proselyte, and when he is “made”
Mat 14:6 all these things must “come to pass” but the end is not yet
Mat 24:6 till all these things be “fulfilled”
Mark 1:17 I will make you to “become” fishers of men
Mark 4:11 all these things “are done” in parablesDo you see the parameters of definition for “ginomai?” It does not mean creation, it means a becoming or a change of what was to what was promised or designed to be, of a different quality.
John 1:3 concerning logos, “all things came to pass by it, and without it nothing came to pass that has come to pass.”
It is a reference to the “New Creation,” by which All things are “become new.” 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are [ginomai] become new.
Joh followed this with a synopsis of the history of the new church, addressing the history of the spread of the gospel;
John speaks of the logos of God as it brought light to men.
4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men.When John says “the darkness comprehended it not” this was PRIOR to the logos being personified, It takes time to comprehend or not comprehend. This is not a reference to the time it took John to write it. How long did God's logos
“shine in the darkness and the darkness” fail to comprehend it? 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.It was not a man John references here, it was the logos of God, which is God's plan, concept, idea, direction, commandment, which was God's attempt to lead men to righteousness.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.Final
ly, John come to include Jesus; and John tells us things that did not happen in a day, nor in a week, nor in a year, but John covers the time from Jesus' beginning ministry, to the writing of John's gospel 63 years later. – 10 He was in the world, and the world was [ginomai] made by him, and THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT.Do you think the Jews rejected Christ before he was born? No! They rejected him over a period of forty years between his preaching, and the destruction of Jerusalem. John covers this time frame in his so called “prologue.”
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.John then speaks to the issue of those who DID accept Jesus.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.Quote (P)
Or is that a doctrine of men accomplished by the working of Satan?(WJ) Could it be that these words apply to you?
No. It is a reference to Satan's plan to take all of God's new testament and twist it out of chronological order, to make Jesus into God.
Quote (WJ) Remember it was this same John that recorded Thomas words when he said… And Thomas answered and “SAID UNTO HIM”, My Lord and my God. John 20:28
The key words are “SAID UNTO HIM”. The literal translation is…
“THE LORD OF ME AND THE GOD OF ME”
Neither John nor Jesus corrected him did they?
Actually yes!
John had perfect opportunity to explain the significance of what Thomas' words meant. And what did John say Thomas' testimony testified to?
John 20:30 “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Why didn't John make it clear at this very important juncture?
Did the disciples ever worship Jesus as God? No, they did not!
Did they ever worship him as the son of God? Yes, they did!
Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.I will cover the testimony of Thomas in another post if it is requested. It takes too much time to include here.
Paladin said:
Quote Very Good WJ, you CAN read what John says. The question for you though, is can you read what I said? I did not say John's prologue did anything. I did not mention John's prologue. I referenced Paul's words from Col 1:25-27, and Paul DOES say the “logos of God” is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And I also said, THAT is the personification of the logos of God. I DID NOT SAY “that is what John said.” To All,
Paul did NOT say the logos was Christ in you the hope of glory. He simply said he was speaking about the mystery which was Christ in you the hope of glory.Paladin said:
Quote Douay Rheims (1582) has “This was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him” Which violates the rules of Greek grammar, as you well know. It changes the reference from “it” to “Him” without an entecedent person. What! No antecedent person? The Greek “logos” is masculine and is the antecedent of the pronoun. Therefore the pronoun must necessarily be masculine. This is the rule! It is required that the pronoun be translated “him”. Paladin's remark reveals that he has no knowledge of Greek exegesis.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,09:09) Paladin said: Quote Very Good WJ, you CAN read what John says. The question for you though, is can you read what I said? I did not say John's prologue did anything. I did not mention John's prologue. I referenced Paul's words from Col 1:25-27, and Paul DOES say the “logos of God” is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And I also said, THAT is the personification of the logos of God. I DID NOT SAY “that is what John said.” To All,
Paul did NOT say the logos was Christ in you the hope of glory. He simply said he was speaking about the mystery which was Christ in you the hope of glory.Paladin said:
Quote Douay Rheims (1582) has “This was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him” Which violates the rules of Greek grammar, as you well know. It changes the reference from “it” to “Him” without an entecedent person. What! No antecedent person? The Greek “logos” is masculine and is the antecedent of the pronoun. Therefore the pronoun must necessarily be masculine. This is the rule! It is required that the pronoun be translated “him”. Paladin's remark reveals that he has no knowledge of Greek exegesis.
thinker
Quote (P)
Very Good WJ, you CAN read what John says. The question for you though, is can you read what I said? I did not say John's prologue did anything. I did not mention John's prologue. I referenced Paul's words from Col 1:25-27, and Paul DOES say the “logos of God” is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And I also said, THAT is the personification of the logos of God. I DID NOT SAY “that is what John said.”(thethinker) To All,
Paul did NOT say the logos was Christ in you the hope of glory. He simply said he was speaking about the mystery which was Christ in you the hope of glory.“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil THE LOGOS OF GOD; 26 EVEN THE MYSTERY which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of THIS MYSTERY among the Gentiles; WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory:” [Col 1:25-27]Paul said the logos of God IS the mystery hid for ages and generations, AND described the mystery as being “Christ in you,” the hope of glory.
Quote (P)
Douay Rheims (1582) has “This was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him” Which violates the rules of Greek grammar, as you well know. It changes the reference from “it” to “Him” without an entecedent person.(tT)
What! No antecedent person? The Greek “logos” is masculine and is the antecedent of the pronoun. Therefore the pronoun must necessarily be masculine. This is the rule! It is required that the pronoun be translated “him”. Paladin's remark reveals that he has no knowledge of Greek exegesis.2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos (masculine) of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
So your testimony is that since “logos is masculine” it must reference a person. This means Jesus, as the logos (according to YOUR testimony) is corrupted by many.
Since both “God” and “Logos” are masculine, and since both God and logos are referenced in scripture as “IT,” it makes me wonder why you would accuse me so unjustly. Is it to make those who are less knowledgable, prejudge my case?
Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,05:07) Paladin said: Quote The man is not the man's deeds, nor is the man the name he is given. It is a name given to the man based on his deeds. It is a name recognized by all who hear it, as referencing one who is identified as a man who refused to build up his dead brother's house. The citation above establishes that the Word was a Person. Paladin in his attempt to disprove that the Word was a person actually proves it. He said,
Quote …It is a name given to the man based on his deeds. Jesus was called the “Word” because He came in the flesh and spoke the words of God.
Quote No man has comprehended God at any time, except the only begotten Son who was in the bosom of the Father, he has EXPLAINED Him (!:18) The Word became flesh and “explained” God to men. Thus He was called the “Word” in accordance with Paladin's own words, “It is a name given to the man based on his deeds”. So Paladin joins our group and comes right out of the gate contradicting himself up and down all over the place. He will soon find out that he is dealing with some here who are in the big leagues.
thinker
Quote (Paladin)
The man is not the man's deeds, nor is the man the name he is given. It is a name given to the man based on his deeds. It is a name recognized by all who hear it, as referencing one who is identified as a man who refused to build up his dead brother's house.(WJ)The citation above establishes that the Word was a Person. Paladin in his attempt to disprove that the Word was a person actually proves it. He said,
Quote
…It is a name given to the man based on his deeds.Jesus was called the “Word” because He came in the flesh and spoke the words of God.[/quote]
There is no verse in scripture that says Jesus Christ “came in the flesh.” THAT is a conclusion reached by theologians who do not know how to properly exegete the Greek.
Quote (WJ)
No man has comprehended God at any time, except the only begotten Son who was in the bosom of the Father, he has EXPLAINED Him (!:18)The Word became flesh and “explained” God to men. Thus He was called the “Word” in accordance with Paladin's own words, “It is a name given to the man based on his deeds”. So Paladin joins our group and comes right out of the gate contradicting himself up and down all over the place.
(P) Not yet! No contradiction. You misquote scripture and build a strawman and expect me to roll over when you cast disparaging remarks?
You are mixing different incidents recorded by John as though what John says about logos is said about Jesus. It is not so.
When men own cattle, they brand them to show evidence of ownership. When God owns slaves, he writes his brand on their garment or their heart or their forehead. We are slaves of God and of his Christ.
Jesus came and taught about the Father, and carried out the mission given him by his father, to the extent that after his resurrection, it is prophesied that at some point in future time, he will be given a name, “logos of God” which name he will have written, just as he will write that same new name on his disciples. Will that make them God?
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Logos is a name written at some future time, not a name he was recognized by among men.
He will soon find out that he is dealing with some here who are in the big leagues.
Paladin Welcome But I disagree with you. Worldly wisdom does not compare, with the wisdom God gives those He loves, and those who ask Him, in prayer. And nobody is judging you, they are only telling you the truth. A long post does not impress me.
John 1:1 goes along with other Scriptures that prove the Preexisting of Jesus.
Col. 1:15-18 He also is the firstborn of the dead. which is verse 18
Rev. 3:14
John 17:5
read and learn the truth, I had to, too not to long ago.
Peace IreneQuote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,07:35) Paladin said: Quote Thank you Gene, for that warm welcome. You are correct about the Xristos in us, because the priests, kings, and prophets of the Old Testament were designated with the same designations as was Jesus. They were “the anointed of God” just as Jesus is “The Christ of God.” King David spoke of King Saul to Abner, calling Saul “ton kurion sou ton basilea” [thy Lord the king]; and “ton Xriston Kuriou,” The anointed of the Lord, which offices Saul held till his death. The appointment is for life. At one's death, the office ceases and his replacement takes over both the offices and the titles….
To All,
There is one big problemo with Paladin's analysis. None of the prophets, kings or priests were exalted to God's right hand. ONLY Jesus was exalted to God's right hand. King David called Christ His “Lord”,Quote The LORD said unto my Lord, “Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool” (Psalm 110) There is another big problemo with Paladin's view. No prophet, priest or king was ever given a name that is “so much superior” to the angels (Hebrews 1:3). ONLY Jesus has a name that is ABOVE every name (Philippians 2). And according to Paladin a man's name is according to His deeds. Paladin said,
Quote It is a name given to the man based on his deeds” Therefore, on the basis of his deeds Jesus' name is far above all the prophets, priests, kings and angels.
thinker
Quote (Paladin)
Thank you Gene, for that warm welcome. You are correct about the Xristos in us, because the priests, kings, and prophets of the Old Testament were designated with the same designations as was Jesus. They were “the anointed of God” just as Jesus is “The Christ of God.”King David spoke of King Saul to Abner, calling Saul “ton kurion sou ton basilea” [thy Lord the king]; and “ton Xriston Kuriou,” The anointed of the Lord, which offices Saul held till his death. The appointment is for life. At one's death, the office ceases and his replacement takes over both the offices and the titles….
(WJ)
To All,
There is one big problemo with Paladin's analysis. None of the prophets, kings or priests were exalted to God's right hand. ONLY Jesus was exalted to God's right hand. King David called Christ His “Lord”,That is a problemo ONLY if I tried to make them equal. I did not. King David called Christ his Lord because David was a prophet and saw the resurrected Christ. [Acts 2:29-31]
My application of the terms is only to show that other men have had the same terms applied to them BY GOD. And they were not called God.
Quote (WJ)
The LORD said unto my Lord, “Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool” (Psalm 110)Quote David was referencing the resurrected Jesus [Acts 2:29-31]
(WJ)
There is another big problemo with Paladin's view. No prophet, priest or king was ever given a name that is “so much superior” to the angels (Hebrews 1:3). ONLY Jesus has a name that is ABOVE every name (Philippians 2). And according to Paladin a man's name is according to His deeds.Paladin said,
[Quote]
It is a name given to the man based on his deeds”Therefore, on the basis of his deeds Jesus' name is far above all the prophets, priests, kings and angels.
You have spoken truly on this. The problem you leave unresolved is, you fail to make the application that shows
“why” he was given such a name.When all those men who were kings and Xristos in God's old covenant, died, their office died with them. And their name passed into history with the deeds they accumulated during that lifetime.
When Jesus, priest and king and Lord and Xristos, died, his offices died with him. And he died as a malefactor, between two thieves. If that had been the end of it, we would have heard no more about it.
But God did two significant things. He raised this man from the dead.
He “made him both Lord and Christ.”
“Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN APPROVED OF GOD among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” [Acts 2:22-36]
And do you know WHY God raised him and renamed him both Lord and Christ? Because he had made a promise that he would make Jesus a priest forever, after the order of Melchezidek. So he raised him up, and “made him both Lord and Christ.”
God is the God of the living, but Jesus is Lord of the living AND the DEAD; But, God is NOT the God of the dead. THAT should tell you something; even you “big leaguers.”
Paladin wrote:
Quote Paul said the logos of God IS the mystery hid for ages and generations, AND described the mystery as being “Christ in you,” the hope of glory. Paladin,
Paul stated simply that the mystery was Christ in them the hope of glory. He simply stated that he was the appointed steward to fulfill that logos (or word).How do you explain John 1:3?
Quote All things were made by Him Explain how Christ in us the hope of glory created all things.
Paladin said:
Quote Since both “God” and “Logos” are masculine, and since both God and logos are referenced in scripture as “IT,” it makes me wonder why you would accuse me so unjustly. Is it to make those who are less knowledgable, prejudge my case? Where is God referenced as “it”? And what basis in the context of John 1 do you have for referencing logos as “it”.
thinker
Paladin…….I concur with what you are saying, This whole false teaching of the TRINITY, and PREEXISTENCE Has totally corrupted the Truth From the time of Necia until now and is the very thing that separates People from the likeness of Christ, Thanks for bringing out these truths in a more clear way. Turning Jesus into a GOD is what 2Ths2 is talking about, by saying that He (Jesus) was being displayed as GOD, this turns Jesus' image into the Man of Sin, Paul was talking about which Jesus will destory with His own Mouth when He returns. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Cindy @ May 29 2009,11:27) Paladin Welcome But I disagree with you. Worldly wisdom does not compare, with the wisdom God gives those He loves, and those who ask Him, in prayer. And nobody is judging you, they are only telling you the truth. A long post does not impress me.
John 1:1 goes along with other Scriptures that prove the Preexisting of Jesus.
Col. 1:15-18 He also is the firstborn of the dead. which is verse 18
Rev. 3:14
John 17:5
read and learn the truth, I had to, too not to long ago.
Peace IreneQuote (Cindy) Paladin Welcome But I disagree with you. Worldly wisdom does not compare, with the wisdom God gives those He loves, and those who ask Him, in prayer.
I agree 100 %! That is why beginning the story of Christianity should NOT begin with the “life of Christ” for a starting point. Thank you for seeing that and emphasizing it.
Quote And nobody is judging you, they are only telling you the truth. Oh, come on Cindy. Get real. Explain the meaning of “We are in the big leagues here.” If that is not judging me as “little league,” what then is it's purpose?
Quote A long post does not impress me. I'll be sure not to post the bible.
Quote
John 1:1 goes along with other Scriptures that prove the Preexisting of Jesus.
Col. 1:15-18 He also is the firstborn of the dead. which is verse 18
Rev. 3:14
John 17:5
read and learn the truth, I had to, too not to long ago.Jesus did not pre-exist OR he was not “begotten” in Mary's womb. You cannot have it both ways.
God said in Psalm 2:7 “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
This is a prophetic reference to the resurrected Christ. It is also the subject of the referenc e to being firstborn of creation. He is the firstborn from the dead, of a new type of creation, resurrected ones.
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.God caused this to be referenced in the Hebrew letter, and tied with other prophecies concerning resurrected Jesus.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?All of the “pre-existent Jesus” references are used erroneously, without exception.
Messiah was to be the seed of the woman [Gen 3:15];
seed of Abraham [Gen 22:18][Gal 3:16] “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
God does NOT come from the bowels of Men.
Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. 2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.”Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
There is no such doctrine in scripture as “God/Man” and Jesus never claimed to be such. Even God said there is a “MAN” at his right hand. Psalm 80:17 “Let thy hand be upon THE MAN of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.”
Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against THE MAN THAT IS MY FELLOW, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
And prophecy proclaims a MAN as Messiah's equal.
Psalm 55:12 “For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: 13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.”
And El Jehovah [Isa 42:5] said no son of El [Psa 89:6] is equal to him; no God is equal to him, [Isa 40:25][Isa 46:5]
Jesus said that he is “ouk monos” [not alone] because the Father is with him John 16:32 “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monos [alone]: and yet I am ouk monos [not alone], because the Father is with me.
But Jehvoah said he monos [alone] created heaven and earth.
Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwelles
t between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou monos [alone], of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.Since there is no one qualified as God “before” or “after” [Isa 43:10] “Beside” [Isa 44:6] or “other” [Isa 44:8] where is this pre-existent Jesus? Remember, it has been claimed that “God” Includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but God denies that very thing when he claims to be “monos” and uses first-person-singular pronouns (“I”) when referencing himself.
So where in eternity is this pre-existent Jesus?
Paladin……….Amen Brother, you have correctly explained it. IMO
peace and Love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,12:00) Paladin wrote: Quote Paul said the logos of God IS the mystery hid for ages and generations, AND described the mystery as being “Christ in you,” the hope of glory. Paladin,
Paul stated simply that the mystery was Christ in them the hope of glory. He simply stated that he was the appointed steward to fulfill that logos (or word).How do you explain John 1:3?
Quote All things were made by Him Explain how Christ in us the hope of glory created all things.
Paladin said:
Quote Since both “God” and “Logos” are masculine, and since both God and logos are referenced in scripture as “IT,” it makes me wonder why you would accuse me so unjustly. Is it to make those who are less knowledgable, prejudge my case? Where is God referenced as “it”? And what basis in the context of John 1 do you have for referencing logos as “it”.
thinker
I worked up a response to your query and when I went to post it, it would not post. I was notified I had to “log in.” When I tried to log in, I was told there is no “Paladin” registered.I then received an e-mail notifying me my registration has been “cancelled” but I can re-register if I want to.
I have done so, but am no longer interested in playing these baby games.
Bye!
Paladin……….Register and continue to Post , This is spiritual warfare Here and we need all the warriors we can get Brother. Brother no one said it was going to be easy, Have Salt in yourself, you have much to offer don't get discouraged, we all need you here. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ May 30 2009,11:59) Paladin……….Register and continue to Post , This is spiritual warfare Here and we need all the warriors we can get Brother. Brother no one said it was going to be easy, Have Salt in yourself, you have much to offer don't get discouraged, we all need you here. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Hello Gene; and thank you for your kind words.It seems not ALL need me here nor want me posting. I received another registration cancellation e-mail which exactly duplicates the first except for the date and time it was received on my computer.
So, I re-re-registered. I shall work up a response to Thinker, and if I am still registered, will probably post it sometime today. If I do not re-post, it will be because someone cancelled my registration again, and “the third time's the charm,” and I will no longer be interested in playing this anonymous child's game.
So much for the “big leagues” methodology.
You see Gene, I do not have such an ego that it must be stroked, but I do have a sense of eternal responsibility to get this gospel of the Spirit published to as many as will read it and consider it.
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