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Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,14:38) Kerwin, Jesus did not say anything about building “another” temple. He said, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise IT up.” He did not say, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise up ANOTHER.”
thinker
Hi Thinker,You lack consistency in your presentation; TT.
John 10:18: No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.He had help laying it down and help in getting it raised back up.
You will go with the help he had in laying it down,
but you refuse to accept that he had help raising it up; why is that?
Gal.1:1 Paul, an apostle…by Jesus Christ, and
God the Father, who raised him from the dead😉Now we know according to Science: that someone else is needed revive the dead!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:ED J
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Wow! I marvel that you invoke false witnesses for support.
Even a false witness is a witness. The question then is everything he states false. Looking at it from hindsight I can certainly state Jesus is building a temple that is not made by human hands. I can also state he not destroy the temple made by human hands.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Furthermore, you are inferring that Jesus equivocated.
Yes he does use words with more than one meaning intentionally. His reason is the same reason he speaks in parables.
Matthew 13:10-16(NIV) reads:
Quote The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
” 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote In Mark 9:31 and 10:34 Jesus said that the son of Man “shall rise.”
In the same way I shall rise from my bed in the morning. It is God that awakens me.Kerwin:
Quote Yes he does use words with more than one meaning intentionally. His reason is the same reason he speaks in parables.
Kerwin,Jesus did not say “this” and “another.” He said “this” and “it” showing that He was speaking about the same temple/body. If He was equivocating there would be some evidence from His speech. Your view that Jesus equivocated is altogether presuppositional and without any basis in exegesis.
Kerwin:
Quote In the same way I shall rise from my bed in the morning. It is God that awakens me. 
This is not the function of the middle voice:Quote “The middle voice represents the subject as participating in the results of the action, as acting in relation to itself, as having personal interest in the action, as being intimately involved in the action. There is no equivalent in English” (Syntax of New Testament Greek, University Press of America, p. 111) The example I gave from 2 Peter 2:2 is a good example of the middle voice. You infer that God washes the pig.
“What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” ESV
Jesus acted in relation to Himself. Besides, Jesus did not “sleep.” He was put to death only in the flesh. But in spirit He went down to hades ALIVE. So in what way did God “awaken” Him?
You guys are too much!
thinker
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 29 2010,15:00) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,14:38) Kerwin, Jesus did not say anything about building “another” temple. He said, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise IT up.” He did not say, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise up ANOTHER.”
thinker
Hi Thinker,You lack consistency in your presentation; TT.
John 10:18: No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.He had help laying it down and help in getting it raised back up.
You will go with the help he had in laying it down,
but you refuse to accept that he had help raising it up; why is that?
Gal.1:1 Paul, an apostle…by Jesus Christ, and
God the Father, who raised him from the dead😉Now we know according to Science: that someone else is needed revive the dead!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:ED J
ED J,We are in agreement that the Father participated in the resurrection of Jesus. This is clearly taught in other scriptures. The Holy Spirit also participated (Romans 8). The scriptures I am invoking say that Jesus HIMSELF did it.
I am simpy indicating what Mark 9:31;10:34 and John 2:19-21 assert on their own.
Trinitarians believe that the resurrection of Jesus was the act of the triune God.
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Your view that Jesus equivocated is altogether presuppositional and without any basis in exegesis.
Let me see, Jesus clears the physical temple and the Jews ask him what sign he will perform to prove he has authority he had to do so. He answers them with the statement we speak of. He switched the meaning of temple right there which is equivocating. Your problem is that you do not want him to have switched it again in his statement.
He has also equivocated in other situation such as with the Samaritan woman at the well. She had a difficult time catching on that though he began speaking of physical water he switched to speaking about spiritual water.
There are other instances when he equivocated. He uses it as a teaching tool much as he used parables.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote This is not the function of the middle voice:
I am certainly acting in relation to myself when I rise from my bed in the morning. I am not when I awaken even though I do change my state of consciousness.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Jesus did not “sleep.” He was put to death only in the flesh. But in spirit He went down to Hades ALIVE. So in what way did God “awaken” Him?
Scripture often calls the first death sleep or are you arguing Jesus did not die?
Psalms 7:5(NIV) reads:
Quote then let my enemy pursue and overtake me;
let him trample my life to the ground
and make me sleep in the dust.
Selahand
Daniel 12:13(NIV) reads:
Quote “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
And
Mark 5:39(NIV) reads:
Quote He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.”
Guys,
Truth is truth – even if we dis agree in other ways with the speaker of that Truth.
WJ is right in his composition on the Ressurection.
hould we disagree if Satan said “Jesus is the Son of God”? We may question his motives for telling the truth but none-the-less, it cannot be denied.
Leave room to credit even your adversary.
A danger I pointed out is playing a game of “Yes/No” did anyone read it?
Some people will be raised into spiritual bodies and occupy a position in Heaven with Christ.
Those raised for occupation in the finalised Paradise Earth will occupy bodies cleansed of all abnormalities but will still be recogniseable as the original person.
Science, even mankind's medical skills, is even now able to replace 'faulty' parts of human bodies (Massive Facial disfigurements, Limb Amputees, internal organ replacements, and son) How much easier is it for our saviour to raise us up into structurally sound everlasting human bodies without deformaties of any kind.
Remember, the disciples didn't recognise Jesus at first – because his previous human body that had been subjected to the battering, as it were, of “it's” previous existence was now cleansed and purified and they saw an Everlasting body of Jesus
Imagine a friend you knew from ages – he had bad hair, pimples, a dodgy leg, bad teeth and bad breath (hmmm….!)
Then his body was transformed, It is still teh same person but now he has a well good hair cut, smooth face, “one left and one right leg”, a sound pair of noshers and (dependinghow close you wanna get) sweet (or unnoticed) breath!(it is howerever, the strange that they saw Jesus with the print of the nails in his hands and feet!
Why didn't Mary Magdelene notice these – or did he change his appearance depending on who he was with?
Any comments about this?)Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 28 2010,22:01) Why do you do this, jump all over the place; to confuse me, or is it because you are? First you tell me I deny the resurrection, when I did not; now you come back with “our” resurrection.
What do you mean “Our” resurrection? Is their more than one type? Even the second resurrection is in their bodys! Do the unbelievers have a new spiritual body when they were standing before God in Revelation Ch 20?Jesus is the firstfuits, the prototype of what shall happen to us when we are resurrected!
Who shall change “our vile body“, that it may be fashioned “like unto his glorious body“, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
Can you explain the above scripture to me?
Which of the scriptures I give are not true for every believer?
Your definition of the resurrection of Jesus body is not scriptural IMO. You say he was raised but you deny the resurrection of his Body.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, “neither his flesh did see corruption“. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32, 33
So if his body did not see corruption is it still laying in a grave somewhere?
My point about Lazurus is they said Lazurus was raised from the dead. So their definition of being raised from the dead is being raised in their Body!
There are no examples of the resurrection without the body in scriptures. So enlighten me and show me where there is and see if you can address the scripures that I give you that clearly show the resurrection of our vile bodys that will be changed like his glorious body in the twinkling of an eye!
Blessings WJ
Kerwin said:
Quote Let me see, Jesus clears the physical temple and the Jews ask him what sign he will perform to prove he has authority he had to do so. He answers them with the statement we speak of. He switched the meaning of temple right there which is equivocating. Your problem is that you do not want him to have switched it again in his statement. He has also equivocated in other situation such as with the Samaritan woman at the well. She had a difficult time catching on that though he began speaking of physical water he switched to speaking about spiritual water.
Kerwin,
Jesus did not equivocate with the woman at the well. He clearly spoke of another water which He would give her which would cause her to NEVER thirst.
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:13-14
It's clear! Jesus did not assign two meanings to the water in the well. He spoke of another water altogether. Whosoever shall drink of “THIS” water shall thirst again. But “THE WATER” that I shall give….”
thethinker wrote:
Quote This is not the function of the middle voice Kerwin replied:
Quote I am certainly acting in relation to myself when I rise from my bed in the morning. I am not when I awaken even though I do change my state of consciousness.
Yes indeed. You are doing the rising. God didn't pick you up.More on the middle voice:
Quote When the middle voice is used the subject is performing the action, but is also involved in some further way in that action. The subject may both perform and receive the action, or may perform the action on his own behalf, or in some other way be more intimately involved in the action. Perhaps the easiest way to think of the middle voice is as a reflexive: Judas
“hanged himself” (ἀπήγξατο, aor. middle ind. of ἀπάγχω; Mt. 27:5).Consider the idea of guarding, i.e., protecting, someone from something. In 1 Jn. 5:21, “guard yourselves” represents an active verb and a reflexive pronoun.
φυλάξατε ἑαυτὰ ἀπὸ τῶν εἰδώλων.
guard yourselves from the idols.
Compare this with Luke 12:15 where the same idea is expressed using the middle voice:
φυλάσσεσθε ἀπὸ πάσης πλεονεξίας
guard yourselves from all covetousness.
These examples may seem to suggest that the middle voice can be explained as merely reflexive. But its significance is generally a bit more subtle than that, and in fact, varies from verb to verb and even from context to context. Robertson said,
“The only difference between the active and middle voices is that the middle calls especial attention to the subject. In the active voice the subject is merely acting; in the middle the subject is acting in relation to himself somehow. What this precise relation is the middle voice does not say. That must come out of the context or from the significance of the verb itself.” (Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 804)
In some verbs, the middle voice seems to mean get something done to/for oneself or get oneself in some condition. For example, in Luke 2:3 (also vs. 1 and vs. 5), “and everyone was going to get himself enrolled (ἀπογράφεσθαι, pres. middle inf. of ἀπογράφω) each one unto his own city.” The idea is not merely active – they were not simply enrolling someone (else). Nor is the idea merely passive. They were not being enrolled without some effort on their part. But it seems to me that “enroll themselves” also fails to convey exactly the right idea. Just as one doesn't vaccinate himself, but instead, gets vaccinated, they didn't enroll themselves. They were getting enrolled, or we could say, getting themselves enrolled.
In 1 Cor. 6:11, it is interesting to note that in the triad washed, sanctified, justified, the first term is middle while the last two are passive. The sanctification and justification are accomplished by God. But in the washing, there is both the activity of the one who is baptized and the spiritual cleansing that is accomplished by the Lord. Therefore, Paul writes, “you got yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified.” He doesn't say, you washed (active), nor you were washed (passive), nor you washed yourselves (active verb with a reflexive pronoun), but you got yourselves washed (ἀπελούσασθε, aor. middle ind. 2nd pers. pl. of ἀπολούω).
PLEASE NOTE CAREFULLY THE SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES THE SOURCE GIVES ABOVE.
Kerwin:
Quote Scripture often calls the first death sleep or are you arguing Jesus did not die?
Did I not say that Jesus died “only in the flesh.” Not everyone who died went into soul sleep. Some went down to hades fully conscious. The rich man is an example. Jesus said that He “died” and went to hades. He said that from hades the rich man “lifted up his eyes and cried.” So the rich man though “dead” in the flesh and to his former existence was fully conscious in hades.This was either a true story or a parable which represented REAL LIFE.
Jesus went down to hades ALIVE (or conscious). Jesus likened His death and resurrection to Jonah's being in the belly of the fish. Jonah was in the belly of the fish FULLY CONSCIOUS. Jonah said that He cried from “sheol” (or hades).
Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said:
“ I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,
And He answered me.“ Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.Furthermore, Paul said that Jesus went into the “lower parts of the earth” and gave gifts to men. And Peter said that He preached to the spirits in prison.
Peter said also that He was put to death in the flesh but quickened in the spirit. This means that the soul of Jesus was preserved alive when He passed through death. The sufferings of His soul on the cross were sufficient to meet the requiremen
t of “death” in our behalf. Therefore, Jesus never “slept.”thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,12:05) Kerwin said: Quote Let me see, Jesus clears the physical temple and the Jews ask him what sign he will perform to prove he has authority he had to do so. He answers them with the statement we speak of. He switched the meaning of temple right there which is equivocating. Your problem is that you do not want him to have switched it again in his statement. He has also equivocated in other situation such as with the Samaritan woman at the well. She had a difficult time catching on that though he began speaking of physical water he switched to speaking about spiritual water.
Kerwin,
Jesus did not equivocate with the woman at the well. He clearly spoke of another water which He would give her which would cause her to NEVER thirst.
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:13-14
It's clear! Jesus did not assign two meanings to the water in the well. He spoke of another water altogether. Whosoever shall drink of “THIS” water shall thirst again. But “THE WATER” that I shall give….”
thethinker wrote:
Quote This is not the function of the middle voice Kerwin replied:
Quote I am certainly acting in relation to myself when I rise from my bed in the morning. I am not when I awaken even though I do change my state of consciousness.
Yes indeed. You are doing the rising. God didn't pick you up.More on the middle voice:
Quote When the middle voice is used the subject is performing the action, but is also involved in some further way in that action. The subject may both perform and receive the action, or may perform the action on his own behalf, or in some other way be more intimately involved in the action. Perhaps the easiest way to think of the middle voice is as a reflexive: Judas
“hanged himself” (ἀπήγξατο, aor. middle ind. of ἀπάγχω; Mt. 27:5).Consider the idea of guarding, i.e., protecting, someone from something. In 1 Jn. 5:21, “guard yourselves” represents an active verb and a reflexive pronoun.
φυλάξατε ἑαυτὰ ἀπὸ τῶν εἰδώλων.
guard yourselves from the idols.
Compare this with Luke 12:15 where the same idea is expressed using the middle voice:
φυλάσσεσθε ἀπὸ πάσης πλεονεξίας
guard yourselves from all covetousness.
These examples may seem to suggest that the middle voice can be explained as merely reflexive. But its significance is generally a bit more subtle than that, and in fact, varies from verb to verb and even from context to context. Robertson said,
“The only difference between the active and middle voices is that the middle calls especial attention to the subject. In the active voice the subject is merely acting; in the middle the subject is acting in relation to himself somehow. What this precise relation is the middle voice does not say. That must come out of the context or from the significance of the verb itself.” (Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 804)
In some verbs, the middle voice seems to mean get something done to/for oneself or get oneself in some condition. For example, in Luke 2:3 (also vs. 1 and vs. 5), “and everyone was going to get himself enrolled (ἀπογράφεσθαι, pres. middle inf. of ἀπογράφω) each one unto his own city.” The idea is not merely active – they were not simply enrolling someone (else). Nor is the idea merely passive. They were not being enrolled without some effort on their part. But it seems to me that “enroll themselves” also fails to convey exactly the right idea. Just as one doesn't vaccinate himself, but instead, gets vaccinated, they didn't enroll themselves. They were getting enrolled, or we could say, getting themselves enrolled.
In 1 Cor. 6:11, it is interesting to note that in the triad washed, sanctified, justified, the first term is middle while the last two are passive. The sanctification and justification are accomplished by God. But in the washing, there is both the activity of the one who is baptized and the spiritual cleansing that is accomplished by the Lord. Therefore, Paul writes, “you got yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified.” He doesn't say, you washed (active), nor you were washed (passive), nor you washed yourselves (active verb with a reflexive pronoun), but you got yourselves washed (ἀπελούσασθε, aor. middle ind. 2nd pers. pl. of ἀπολούω).
PLEASE NOTE CAREFULLY THE SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES THE SOURCE GIVES ABOVE.
Kerwin:
Quote Scripture often calls the first death sleep or are you arguing Jesus did not die?
Did I not say that Jesus died “only in the flesh.” Not everyone who died went into soul sleep. Some went down to hades fully conscious. The rich man is an example. Jesus said that He “died” and went to hades. He said that from hades the rich man “lifted up his eyes and cried.” So the rich man though “dead” in the flesh and to his former existence was fully conscious in hades.This was either a true story or a parable which represented REAL LIFE.
Jesus went down to hades ALIVE (or conscious). Jesus likened His death and resurrection to Jonah's being in the belly of hte fish. Jonah was in the belly of the fish FULLY CONSCIOUS. Jonah said that He cried from “sheol” (or hades).
Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said:
“ I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,
And He answered me.“ Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.Furthermore, Paul said that Jesus went into the “lower parts of the earth” and gave gifts to men. And Peter said that He preached to the spirits in prison.
Peter said also that He was put to d
eath in the flesh but quickened in the spirit. This means that the soul of Jesus was preserved alive when He passed through death. The sufferings of His soul on the cross were sufficient to meet the requirement of “death” in our behalf. Therefore, Jesus never “slept.”thinker
JackThat is sound doctrine!
Blessings Keith
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,22:21) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 29 2010,15:00) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,14:38) Kerwin, Jesus did not say anything about building “another” temple. He said, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise IT up.” He did not say, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise up ANOTHER.”
thinker
Hi Thinker,You lack consistency in your presentation; TT.
John 10:18: No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.He had help laying it down and help in getting it raised back up.
You will go with the help he had in laying it down,
but you refuse to accept that he had help raising it up; why is that?
Gal.1:1 Paul, an apostle…by Jesus Christ, and
God the Father, who raised him from the dead😉Now we know according to Science: that someone else is needed revive the dead!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:ED J
ED J,We are in agreement that the Father participated in the resurrection of Jesus. This is clearly taught in other scriptures. The Holy Spirit also participated (Romans 8). The scriptures I am invoking say that Jesus HIMSELF did it.
I am simpy indicating what Mark 9:31;10:34 and John 2:19-21 assert on their own.
Trinitarians believe that the resurrection of Jesus was the act of the triune God.
thinker
Hi TT,Thanks for clarifying your position on this issue.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybibleocde.orgThe Thinker wrote:
Quote Jesus did not equivocate with the woman at the well. He clearly spoke of another water which He would give her which would cause her to NEVER thirst.
Jesus did assign another meaning to the word water which is why the Samaritan woman was slow to catch on that he was not speaking of physical water from another source.
In the next verse you can see the Samaritan woman thought he was still speaking of physical water though not water from the well.
John 4:15(NIV) reads:
Quote The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
He did this to hide his message from those whose hearts are calloused while revealing it to those who truly seek God.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Did I not say that Jesus died “only in the flesh.” Not everyone who died went into soul sleep. Some went down to Hades fully conscious. The rich man is an example. Jesus said that He “died” and went to Hades. He said that from Hades the rich man “lifted up his eyes and cried.” So the rich man though “dead” in the flesh and to his former existence was fully conscious in Hades.
This was either a true story or a parable which represented REAL LIFE.
That is a figurative story as it is a parable and should not for that reason be taken literally. Its purpose was not to tell us what Hades is like but rather the lesson of the story is:
Luke 16:31(NIV) reads:
Quote He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' “
Mind you that are some other ideas in that story that are also repeated in other areas of scripture. In addition there is some evidence that soul sleep may not necessary be a sound sleep. For instance the students of Jesus appear to believe in ghosts and we also know the Witch of Endor summoned the ghost of Samuel.
When Jesus gave up his spirit to his Father then he entered soul sleep. When he received that Spirit back from his Father he awoke transformed and rose from Hades.
I will have to have another look at the scripture you mentioned pertaining to Jesus' time in the grave before I can comment.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2010,12:45) Jesus did assign another meaning to the word water which is why the Samaritan woman was slow to catch on that he was not speaking of physical water from another source.
KerwinHere is something for you to consider. In all of Johns writings he never uses the Word “Body”, Strong's G4983 – sōma, except in the Gospel of John and the 4 times that he uses the term he is speaking of the Body of Jesus.
It seems to me that John looking back when he wrote the Gospel which is believed to be his last work, that he would have clarified what you are saying by either using another word or speaking of the church or something.
But he didn't, he said…
But he spake of the temple of his body (sōma). John 2:21
Then immediately following he writes…
“When therefore he was risen from the dead“, **HIS DISCIPLES REMEMBERED THAT HE HAD SAID THIS UNTO THEM**; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. John 2:22
Based on this and on the Greek tenses of the verse and the fact that John writes after his resurrection that “they believed his words” by referring to his resurrection, it is evident that Jesus was speaking of his physical temple, his own body!
Also, Jesus said “destroy this temple” and we know the “Body” the Church was not destroyed and raised up!
Blessings WJ
Worshipping Jesus,
I do not believe you are understanding me correctly.
The point I am attempting to make is that before his death on the cross Jesus was the only temple of the Holy Spirit but when he rose on the third day the temple was expanded to all that believed and thus received the Holy Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2010,17:52) Worshipping Jesus, I do not believe you are understanding me correctly.
The point I am attempting to make is that before his death on the cross Jesus was the only temple of the Holy Spirit but when he rose on the third day the temple was expanded to all that believed and thus received the Holy Spirit.
KerwinEven so, he said he would raise the “Temple of his Body”, was Johns understanding. This happened in the three days that Jesus said he would raise it up!
Blessings WJ
To ALL……….Jesus did (NOT) raise Himself from the Dead , simple logic should tell you that> If he were (truly) dead as he said he was, then someone else would have to raise Him. I have yet to see anyone raised from the dead. But these Deluded TRINITARIANS think they can even change The Words of GOD and the Apostles who said it was GOD WHO RAISED JESUS up from the dead. You need all to understand there is no since for Jesus to be proclaimed to the world as dying on a cross if indeed he did (NOT) really DIE. People who could just change to one state to another on their own, would never sweat great drops of Blood and say Father take this cup from me, and cry out, MY GOD, MY GOD, HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME. The only thing Trinitarians add to these discussions is confusion and nothing else. The more you try to reason with them the more confused you will become. IMO
The problem with our N.T- it is so much ambigous about Jesus' resurrection. John says Jesus was having the right to raise himself from the dead whereas other writers say God was the one who raised him from the dead. So which one is correct?
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 30 2010,11:29) The problem with our N.T- it is so much ambigous about Jesus' resurrection. John says Jesus was having the right to raise himself from the dead whereas other writers say God was the one who raised him from the dead. So which one is correct?
The individual that is right is the one who interprets scriptures according to God's intent.Some scripture are meant to be ambiguous in order to hit the truth from those who do not seek God. Those that seek God will be guided by God and so find the truth.
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