Did jesus have the same spirit as believers?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2009,11:02)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2009,10:51) Hi Mandy Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,18:45) You're a Thinker-come-lately if you think this is about winning and losing. Keith and I go way back, we're family!  There are no winner's or losers, dude.  Grow up in the Lord, and instead encourage one another to press on towards the goal. Love, Mandy Yes we do go a long way back and I am glad to know you. However Jack is in my camp at least as far as the Trinitarian view goes! I think he is merely saying that debates among those here can be won or lost, but it should all be in a friendly way! After all these are debates, and everyone here wishes that others would see it their way! WJ I don't believe in “camps”.   Just the family of God trying to figure it all out, together. Those who divide….well…..I have no time for them or what they say.  Be careful who you “camp” with. Love, Mandy HA HA Thats funny Mandy, because you also are dividing every time you teach your truth then! WJ

I don't “teach”, Keith. I've never been called to that role.

I open my fat mouth and opinions fly out at alarming rates!

Clearly there are those who are invested in their “opinions” or lessons, and those of us who can come and go.

Press on, bro. We will eventually reach the goal and what a Day that will be!

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2009,11:09)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,18:59) Hello again, Quote We are not “Temples of an it” or some amorphous power! First of all, you receive $.50 for using “amorphous” which I had to look-up!   Keith, here's the thing, there's really nothing in your post that I disagree with?  What is the point then?  The precious holy Spirit of God indwells his children.  It had better!  It is our “pass go”, our “gaurentee” of salvation, our “mark” of acceptance.  It's how the Father speaks and comforts us.  It's our “direct line” to our father. I'll stop right there and tell you one of my beefs about Trinitarianism – and that is that I didn't reallize I had a heavenly Father.  Everything was about Jesus.  Jesus this, and Jesus that; praise Jesus!.  When I finally realized that I also had a heavenly Father that cared about me…..I was stupefied; and I felt angry.  I felt like I had been robbed of my heavenly family.  God has given me his Spirit so that I can have a direct line to HIM whenever I wish.  I have Jesus to thank for that, but nevertheless, that is the Spirit I was given. John 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. Love, Mandy Hi Mandy The reason you hear Jesus this and Jesus that here by Trinitarians is because we are defending the faith of Jesus being God! When I worship in my Church or fellowship with my brothers and sisters there, we always mention and sing about the Father as well as Jesus and the Holy Spirit! Maybe you feel you have been robbed of your family because you have forsaken fellowhip with them because you have a problem with their doctrine. That is not the fault of the Trinity doctrine but your choice and you have that right! And my prayer is that you will continue seeking the truth! WJ

I felt robbed of fellowship with the Father, not fellow believers.

I grew up as a Trinitarian who was taught all about JESUS. But very little about the Father (nearly nothing about the Holy Spirit). It's true in most churches; I've talked with scads of Trinitarians who believe that the Father is just another name for Jesus, or that Jesus is the prominent “person” they are to worship, or the list goes on….

Even if Jesus is God…..the Father is God as well, correct?

Churches nowadays are a bit confused, if you ask me. I visited one just recently who opened in prayer to Jesus – then called the same person they were directing the prayer to (Jesus) the Father…without missing a beat. And then closed with something about the Holy Spirit. Everyone “Amened” and sat down. I just looked around and thought, “WHO the heck did this man just pray to?”. I don't think HE knew….. Jesus told us to pray to the Father. Easy enough to remember.

Anyway, this is not the correct thread, sorry. I should start a new thread: My beefs with the Trinitarian church. Just kidding.

Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi Not3,
Pilate expressed the world's opinion when he asked
“what is truth?”

Jesus gave the answer in Jn 17.17

However opinions override it

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,11:19)

Hi Not3, Pilate expressed the world's opinion when he asked “what is truth?” Jesus gave the answer in Jn 17.17 However opinions override it

The bible may be “truth”, but as I said, this “truth” is read by many…..and it is interpreted by many…..and out of it come many beliefs.

At some point you have to acknowledge the common denominator.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

Exactly Keith, The Holy Spirit is not included in these verse of “Knowing the Father or the Son” or “seeing the Father” because the Spirit is not a person like Jesus and the Father but a part of the Father.

But you have created a conundrum for yourself.

Let me use you own words…

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

The spirit is an intimate part of the Father that is controlled by the Father's mind, given information from the Father's mind and then conveyed to us. The Spirit does not speak on its own but is directed by the mind of the Father.

So how can the Spirit be an intimate part of the Father and not know the Father?
How can the Spirit convey to us the Fathers mind if the Spirit does not know the Father?
How can the Spirit speak what is the Fathers mind if the Spirit does not know the Father?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

The mind of the Spirit is the Father's mind.

But you just said that the Spirit doesn’t know the Father or the Son. So how is that possible if the Spirit has the Fathers mind?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

The Father directs His own Spirit as the Father wills.

How can the Spirit be directed if the Spirit doesn’t know the Father?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

The Spirit knows the mind of the Father because the Spirit receives the thoughts of the Father and the Father sends that communication on to us through His Spirit.

How can the Spirit know the mind of the Father and receive his thoughts if the Spirit doesn’t know him? And how can we receive that communication from an “It” that does not know the Father or the Son? “Its do not communicate!

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

The Spirit is intimate with the mind of God like the water is intimate with the lake bed.

How can the Spirit be intimate with the Father if he does not know him?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

Because the Spirit is sent to dwell within the believer, the believer has  potential to allow the Spirit of God to: love us and to love through us,

How can the Spirit dwell in us and us “Allow” an ‘It” to Love us or Love through us?

An “It” does not love. Even dogs have personality and love, yet you have denied the Spirit of being a living being. If the Spirit is an “It” then it is less than a dog for it is not a living being, in fact it is not even a living creature. IMO!

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

…give us joy and prompt us to then to express joy to others,

“Its” do not give joy, only a living being can do that! “Its” cannot prompt us to express Joy, only living beings can do that!

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

give us patience and prompt us then to express patience to others,  give us peace and then to express the peace of God to others,   show us kindness and prompt us to express that kindness to others,  show us goodness and prompt us to express that goodness to others, show us gentleness and prompt us to express that gentleness to others, teach us self-control so that we can express that self-control towards others.

Only a living being can prompt us do those things that are typical of a living being! But, you claim that somehow an “It” from God has these abilities!

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

The Spirit is an amazing part of believers.  Within believers is the very mind and power of God as it comes THROUGH His Spirit that has been placed within us through His Son.  Like I said before, believers, just because the very Spirit of God abides within them, that doesn't mean that it always leads us.  Believers do have some say as to whether they are going to allow God's Spirit to lead them or not.  God doesn't force us to take advantage of His gift to us but when we do allow God's spirit to take over our lives, we will have all we need and be all we would want to be.

And now you want us to let an “It” from God control us. You want us to allow an “It” to lead us! But how can we follow an “It” that does not know the Father or the Son? How can an “It” be an example to us?

You are saying that the Spirit that proceeds from the Father and hears from the Father and speaks what the Father speaks, and reveals the hidden things of God and has the mind of God and Loves with the Love of God does not know the Father and the Son!

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, “but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”And he who searches our hearts knows “THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT”, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. ”. Rom 8:26, 27

So you are telling us the Spirit that prays for us does not know who he is praying to? Notice, the “Mind of the Spirit”, the Spirit has a mind, that also has a will that intercedes for us according to the will of God.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

1 Thessalonians 5;19 Quench not the Spirit.

Literally meaning, do not put the Fire of God out in your life for God is a consuming fire!

Quote (Lighten up @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28)

Quote You quoted this: Likewise “the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities“: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but “the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered“. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because “the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will“. Rom 8:26, 27 You might want to have the King James Bible changed to say “the Spirit himself” instead of “the Spirit itself” in the verse above.   Blessings, Kathi

You are right, thank you! I didn’t realize that most of the Translations including yours render the verse…

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but “THE SPIRIT HIMSELF” intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; Rom 8:26

True Fellowship with God is in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the “FELLOWSHIP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BE WITH YOU ALL.” 2 Cor 13:14

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
But you deny the fellowship Of God's Spirit for yourself?
Why?

[942767]

Hi WJ:

You say:

Quote

But you are leaving out some sriptures in you belief! Jn 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: “BUT YE KNOW HIM; FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU”, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.

Do you agree that Jesus is speaking of the Father dwelling within him and will indwell born again believes after his ascension into heaven?

And you ask about the following:

Quote

And this… Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us? Does the Father have to hear before he speaks?

You question, Does the Father take from Jesus and give unto us is answered by the last verse of the scripture that you quoted “15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

God in exalting Jesus to His right hand has given him all power over heaven and earth. He is God's heir, and so he says ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HATH ARE MINE, THEREFORE SAID I, THAT HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU

And your question does the Father have to hear before he speaks, No, He does not, but He has already spoken to us through Jesus and so, is not speaking any thing new in the scriptures, but showing us what has already been said. Jesus watches over the Word that has been spoken to perform it.

Jesus said:

Quote

Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

And about the following:

Quote

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19 The name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit was not given to an “IT”.

What is the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, WJ? It appears that it is speaking of “one name”, and not three different names. Also, you know that there is some question about whether or not this scripture was in the orginal manuscripts.

And you ask me:

Quote

So does God live in you body which is his Temple Marty?

Yes, God dwells within me by His Holy Spirit as my helper, and He dwells within me as I learn to apply the doctrine of Christ to my life (the spirit of His Son). You know that old song, “It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
It is not surprising that you do not know who God is if you do not have the Spirit of Christ.
Come out of her.

[Not3in1]

Marty, your posts are helpful and reaching….. Thank you for the Spirit that is so evident in you.

Love,
Mandy

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………..Dump those false TRINITARIAN TEACHINGS, And you will be amazed How simple thing become. Let the mind that was in Christ be in you and you will worship who Jesus worshiped. Jesus lived to the glory of the FATHER ONLY, We must also. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[942767]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2009,13:31)

Marty, your posts are helpful and reaching…..  Thank you for the Spirit that is so evident in you. Love, Mandy

Hi Mandy:

Happy that I can help.

 My prayer is that we all will come into unity.  WJ and I may disagree on this issue, but I know that he and others who may believe the doctrine of trinity, like brother Paul, are sincere brothers and sisters in Christ.

I love you and desire the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,11:19)

Hi Not3, Pilate expressed the world's opinion when he asked “what is truth?” Jesus gave the answer in Jn 17.17 However opinions override it

Nick………You just brought out a interesting scripture , Notice, Pilot was addressing the concerns of the Jew about Jesus presenting himself as King, but notice what Jesus said Who told you that, the Jews had told Him that, then Jesus went on to say this is THIS REASON I HAVE COME, TO BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH. Pilot Know that Jesus had just denied the claim of him being a King much less a GOD, and went on to say His came to bear witness to the Truth. That is why Pilot did not continue to investigate the claim the Jews claimed him of saying He was a king, but instead moved on to the subject of the truth saying “what is Truth”. Pilot know Jesus was not trying to be a GOD or a KING. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

[bodhitharta]

I know you guys don't accept the Quran but this certainly is prophecy fulfilled.

(2) From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #14)

Keep in mind that prophecy was made when before the protestant reformation or the seperation of The Catholic church with the greek orthodox church and now Christianity is over 39,000 denominations just like what happened at the tower of babble

So conversion at this point gets quite bizarre so as it says in Revelation 22

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Amen! I love you All!

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
We know your god is at emnity with our God as you attack the holy teachers and their words from our God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,16:07)

Hi BD, We know your god is at emnity with our God as you attack the holy teachers and their words from our God.

Nick,

Read the prophecy again it says that christians have emnity and hatred towards each other and it's true. You call trinitarian churches whores. Whether you accept the Quran or not the prophecy is true and there are 39,000 Christian denominations(and still counting) to prove the prophecy.

Also Nick you keep even disobeying God yourself when you claim that anyone could have another God as Islam says There is no god but GOD. Don't you believe that?

For the first thousand years of Christian history, there were no “denominations” within the Christian church as there are today.

So it is clear that there would be no way of knowing it would be so divided today but this prophecy occured 400 years before it's first division.

Why deny the prophecy?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Human predictions are not prophecy from God.
You follow a man who was not following our God's Spirit but some other.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,19:22)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) Exactly Keith, The Holy Spirit is not included in these verse of “Knowing the Father or the Son” or “seeing the Father” because the Spirit is not a person like Jesus and the Father but a part of the Father. But you have created a conundrum for yourself. Let me use you own words… Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) The spirit is an intimate part of the Father that is controlled by the Father's mind, given information from the Father's mind and then conveyed to us. The Spirit does not speak on its own but is directed by the mind of the Father. So how can the Spirit be an intimate part of the Father and not know the Father? How can the Spirit convey to us the Fathers mind if the Spirit does not know the Father? How can the Spirit speak what is the Fathers mind if the Spirit does not know the Father? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) The mind of the Spirit is the Father's mind. But you just said that the Spirit doesn’t know the Father or the Son. So how is that possible if the Spirit has the Fathers mind? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) The Father directs His own Spirit as the Father wills. How can the Spirit be directed if the Spirit doesn’t know the Father? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) The Spirit knows the mind of the Father because the Spirit receives the thoughts of the Father and the Father sends that communication on to us through His Spirit. How can the Spirit know the mind of the Father and receive his thoughts if the Spirit doesn’t know him? And how can we receive that communication from an “It” that does not know the Father or the Son? “Its do not communicate! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) The Spirit is intimate with the mind of God like the water is intimate with the lake bed. How can the Spirit be intimate with the Father if he does not know him? Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) Because the Spirit is sent to dwell within the believer, the believer has  potential to allow the Spirit of God to: love us and to love through us, How can the Spirit dwell in us and us “Allow” an ‘It” to Love us or Love through us? An “It” does not love. Even dogs have personality and love, yet you have denied the Spirit of being a living being. If the Spirit is an “It” then it is less than a dog for it is not a living being, in fact it is not even a living creature. IMO! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) …give us joy and prompt us to then to express joy to others, “Its” do not give joy, only a living being can do that! “Its” cannot prompt us to express Joy, only living beings can do that! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) give us patience and prompt us then to express patience to others,  give us peace and then to express the peace of God to others,   show us kindness and prompt us to express that kindness to others,  show us goodness and prompt us to express that goodness to others, show us gentleness and prompt us to express that gentleness to others, teach us self-control so that we can express that self-control towards others.   Only a living being can prompt us do those things that are typical of a living being! But, you claim that somehow an “It” from God has these abilities! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) The Spirit is an amazing part of believers.  Within believers is the very mind and power of God as it comes THROUGH His Spirit that has been placed within us through His Son.  Like I said before, believers, just because the very Spirit of God abides within them, that doesn't mean that it always leads us.  Believers do have some say as to whether they are going to allow God's Spirit to lead them or not.  God doesn't force us to take advantage of His gift to us but when we do allow God's spirit to take over our lives, we will have all we need and be all we would want to be. And now you want us to let an “It” from God control us. You want us to allow an “It” to lead us! But how can we follow an “It” that does not know the Father or the Son? How can an “It” be an example to us? You are saying that the Spirit that proceeds from the Father and hears from the Father and speaks what the Father speaks, and reveals the hidden things of God and has the mind of God and Loves with the Love of God does not know the Father and the Son! In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, “but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”And he who searches our hearts knows “THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT”, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. ”. Rom 8:26, 27 So you are telling us the Spirit that prays for us does not know who he is praying to? Notice, the “Mind of the Spirit”, the Spirit has a mind, that also has a will that intercedes for us according to the will of God. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) 1 Thessalonians 5;19 Quench not the Spirit. Literally meaning, do not put the Fire of God out in your life for God is a consuming fire! Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:28) Quote You quoted this: Likewise “the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities“: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but “the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered“. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because “the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will“. Rom 8:26, 27 You might want to have the King James Bible changed to say “the Spirit himself” instead of “the Spirit itself” in the verse above.   Blessings, Kathi You are right, thank you! I didn’t realize that most of the Translations including yours render the verse… In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but “THE SPIRIT HIMSELF” intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; Rom 8:26 True Fellowship with God is in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit! May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the “FELLOWSHIP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BE WITH YOU ALL.” 2 Cor 13:14 WJ

Keith,
Thank you for your questions. You ask how come the Spirit can do all those things and not know the Father?  The answer is very simple.  It is because the Spirit of God is a part of the Father and not a person. The Holy Spirit is definitely intimitely associated with the Father and the Son but not as another person otherwise the Spirit would know the Father and Son and this verse would include the Spirit but it doesn't.

Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NASU

Hope you day is great,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,00:51)

Who lives inside of me? Well, my understanding is that the Father has had a Son named Jesus.  This Son is a true and literal Son – he calls out to him, “Abba, Father.”.  We are told that because of Jesus, we too can call out to the Father in the same way.  Why?  Because Jesus is our brother. We are adopted siblings to Jesus. We have the right to be called sons and daughter's of the Most High God, because of Jesus. God's holy spirit binds us all together as one.  We are all family; we are all God's children.  It is a spirit of unity that binds us.  We fellowship with God, Jesus, and each other because we are bound by this spirit of family. It is this spirit of sonship; this spirit of family; this spirit of deposit that I am the Father's child……that lives in me!  And because it does, I am counted. Love, Mandy

Amen to that Mandy!

Keep it up

Love,
Kathi

[KangarooJack]

Mandy said:

Quote

You're a Thinker-come-lately if you think this is about winning and losing. Keith and I go way back, we're family!  There are no winner's or losers, dude.  Grow up in the Lord, and instead encourage one another to press on towards the goal.

Mandy,
I wasn't born yesterday Sis. We all do this because we like to argue.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2009,10:51)

Hi Mandy Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,18:45) You're a Thinker-come-lately if you think this is about winning and losing. Keith and I go way back, we're family!  There are no winner's or losers, dude.  Grow up in the Lord, and instead encourage one another to press on towards the goal. Love, Mandy Yes we do go a long way back and I am glad to know you. However Jack is in my camp at least as far as the Trinitarian view goes! I think he is merely saying that debates among those here can be won or lost, but it should all be in a friendly way! After all these are debates, and everyone here wishes that others would see it their way! WJ

You're right Keith. Add to this that we are all here because we like to argue. We all think we are “teachers.” We all are acting contrary to James' rule “be not many teachers.”

The people who really want to learn just read all this on the side lines and they don't engage too much. Mandy calls her self “not3in1”. This is argumentative in and of itself. There is another one called “trinityisheresy.”

People who use names such as “not3in1” and “trinityisheresy” show by these names that they want to argue. I want to argue too but I don't want to declare it in my name.

God wants truth from the “inward parts of the belly.” So let's all be honest as to why we're here.

thinker

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