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Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,20:52) Lightenup said: Quote The disciples recalled His words after He was raised from the dead, true. Look at the verb “raised” and notice that it is in the passive tense:
John 2:22
22 So when He was raised from the dead…
NASUAlso, Jesus told them that He was going back to the Father during His time with them. Those were His words also that they remembered. Jesus didn't tell Mary to tell the disciples that He was alive but to tell them that He was going to ascend to the Father, His God. For Jesus, going back to the Father was the goal, not just being resurrected.
Kathi,
You are wrong! Sorry
. You say they remembered His words when He ascended. But Luke's account clearly says that it was upon the announcement they received from the angel that they remembered,Quote 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’” And they remembered His words (24:5-7). They remembered His words WHEN He was risen just as John's narrative indicates. They remembered His words BEFORE He ever appeared to anyone. And guess what? Jesus claimed He would rise from the dead using the middle voice which means that He acted upon Himself.
Quote …and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the nations to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again (Matthew 20:19) It is middle voice Kathi. It means, “And the third day He will raise Himself again.”
Now the next verse is of special interest because it also uses the middle voice and speaks directly to your ascension theory as well. The chief priests and the Pharisees asked Pilate to guard the tomb because Jesus had claimed that He would raise Himself again,
Quote On the next day, which followed the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, 'After three days I will raise [Myself].' Therefore, command that the tomb be made secure, until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first.” (matthew 27:63-64) All those who heard Him say “I will raise it up” or “I will raise Myself again” thought He was speaking about His resurrection from the dead and not His ascension.
btw, you have not replied to my point from Romans 8:9 that it was the Spirit OF CHRIST that raised Jesus from the dead.
thinker
Thinker,
Here is several translations of Matt 27:63 and none of them indicate that Jesus said He would raise Himself. The word “Myself” is not in the verse. “I will rise again” is in the passive voice. See here and click on the Greek Lexical Parser:
http://www.studylight.org/isb….=1&l=enNET ©
and said, “Sir, we remember that while that deceiver was still alive he said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’NIV ©
“Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’NASB ©
and said, “Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’NLT ©
They told him, “Sir, we remember what that deceiver once said while he was still alive: ‘After three days I will be raised from the dead.’MSG ©
They said, “Sir, we just remembered that that liar announced while he was still alive, 'After three days I will be raised.'BBE ©
Saying, Sir, we have in mind how that false man said, while he was still living, After three days I will come again from the dead.NRSV ©
and said, “Sir, we remember what that impostor said while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise again.’NKJV ©
saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’I will deal with another of your verses in the next post so this one isn't any longer.
KathiQuote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,20:52) Lightenup said: Quote The disciples recalled His words after He was raised from the dead, true. Look at the verb “raised” and notice that it is in the passive tense:
John 2:22
22 So when He was raised from the dead…
NASUAlso, Jesus told them that He was going back to the Father during His time with them. Those were His words also that they remembered. Jesus didn't tell Mary to tell the disciples that He was alive but to tell them that He was going to ascend to the Father, His God. For Jesus, going back to the Father was the goal, not just being resurrected.
Kathi,
You are wrong! Sorry. You say they remembered His words when He ascended. But Luke's account clearly says that it was upon the announcement they received from the angel that they remembered,Quote 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’” And they remembered His words (24:5-7). They remembered His words WHEN He was risen just as John's narrative indicates. They remembered His words BEFORE He ever appeared to anyone. And guess what? Jesus claimed He would rise from the dead using the middle voice which means that He acted upon Himself.
Quote …and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the nations to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again (Matthew 20:19) It is middle voice Kathi. It means, “And the third day He will raise Himself again.”
Now the next verse is of special interest because it also uses the middle voice and speaks directly to your ascension theory as well. The chief priests and the Pharisees asked Pilate to guard the tomb because Jesus had claimed that He would raise Himself again,
Quote On the next day, which followed the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, 'After three days I will raise [Myself].' Therefore, command that the tomb be made secure, until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first.” (matthew 27:63-64) All those who heard Him say “I will raise it up” or “I will raise Myself again” thought He was speaking about His resurrection from the dead and not His ascension.
btw, you have not replied to my point from Romans 8:9 that it was the Spirit OF CHRIST that raised Jesus from the dead.
thinker
Thinker,
Now for this verse:Matthew 20:19
Context
NET ©
and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged severely 1 and crucified. 2 Yet 3 on the third day, he will be raised.”
NIV ©
biblegateway Mat 20:19
and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”
NASB ©
biblegateway Mat 20:19
and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.”
NLT ©
biblegateway Mat 20:19
Then they will hand him over to the Romans to be mocked, whipped, and crucified. But on the third day he will be raised from the dead.”
MSG ©
biblegateway Mat 20:19
They will then hand him over to the Romans for mockery and torture and crucifixion. On the third day he will be raised up alive.”
BBE ©
SABDAweb Mat 20:19
And will give him up to the Gentiles to be made sport of and to be whipped and to be put to death on the cross: and the third day he will come back again from the dead.
NRSV ©
bibleoremusMat 20:19
then they will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified; and on the third day he will be raised.”
NKJV ©
biblegateway Mat 20:19
“and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”Once again, the verb for “will rise” is in the passive. Go here to see for yourself:
http://www.studylight.org/isb….&ncc=27
Once again, click on the Greek Lexical Parser to see that it is in the passive voice.
Kathi
Next post to come…Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,20:52) Lightenup said: Quote The disciples recalled His words after He was raised from the dead, true. Look at the verb “raised” and notice that it is in the passive tense:
John 2:22
22 So when He was raised from the dead…
NASUAlso, Jesus told them that He was going back to the Father during His time with them. Those were His words also that they remembered. Jesus didn't tell Mary to tell the disciples that He was alive but to tell them that He was going to ascend to the Father, His God. For Jesus, going back to the Father was the goal, not just being resurrected.
Kathi,
You are wrong! Sorry. You say they remembered His words when He ascended. But Luke's account clearly says that it was upon the announcement they received from the angel that they remembered,Quote 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’” And they remembered His words (24:5-7). They remembered His words WHEN He was risen just as John's narrative indicates. They remembered His words BEFORE He ever appeared to anyone. And guess what? Jesus claimed He would rise from the dead using the middle voice which means that He acted upon Himself.
Quote …and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the nations to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again (Matthew 20:19) It is middle voice Kathi. It means, “And the third day He will raise Himself again.”
Now the next verse is of special interest because it also uses the middle voice and speaks directly to your ascension theory as well. The chief priests and the Pharisees asked Pilate to guard the tomb because Jesus had claimed that He would raise Himself again,
Quote On the next day, which followed the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, 'After three days I will raise [Myself].' Therefore, command that the tomb be made secure, until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first.” (matthew 27:63-64) All those who heard Him say “I will raise it up” or “I will raise Myself again” thought He was speaking about His resurrection from the dead and not His ascension.
btw, you have not replied to my point from Romans 8:9 that it was the Spirit OF CHRIST that raised Jesus from the dead.
thinker
Thinker,There were some who remembered these words regarding:
Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee,
7 saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”
8 And they remembered His words,Luke 24:1-12
The Resurrection 24 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing;
5 and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living One among the dead?
6 “He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee,
7 saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”
8 And they remembered His words,
9 and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
10 Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles.
11 But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them.
12 But Peter got up and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings only; and he went away to his home, marveling at what had happened.
NASUThere were other words they were told by Jesus that they would recall and those words regarded His going to the Father which He did after He appeared to Mary:
John 14:28-29
28 “You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
29 “Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.
NASUSo, so far Thinker, you have not given me any scripture that clearly says that He raised Himself from the dead in the active voice. That should tell you something. I don't know where you get this middle voice stuff but I have looked in three interlinears and looked at the morphology of the verbs and they are all in the passive voice as I have demonstrated. They must be in the active voice for it to mean that He raised Himself from the dead. He raised Himself to see the Father after He saw Mary, that is when He actively raised Himself, not before.
You say that I haven't addressed your Romans 8:9 point. You are wrong once again. Here is what I said:
Quote Posted: Aug. 22 2009,15:25
Thinker,
If you believe that Romans 8:9 refers to the Spirit of Christ raising Christ from the dead instead of the Spirit of the Father then show me in another passage that Christ raised Himself from the dead in an active voice. Make it a clear scripture.
KathiWow, I just spent over an hour correcting you on several points. Please show your references regarding the morphology of the verbs. I have not got this kind of time to come along fixing your mistakes. Please be more careful.
Kathi
Lightenup said:
Quote Here is several translations of Matt 27:63 and none of them indicate that Jesus said He would raise Himself. The word “Myself” is not in the verse. “I will rise again” is in the passive voice. See here and click on the Greek Lexical Parser: Kathi,
I did not say that “Myself” was in the translations. I said that the middle voice means that He acted upon Himself and so I supplied the word “myself.” The Greek “egeiro” in Matthew 27:63 is in the middle voice and the word “anastasis” in Matthew 20:19 is also in the middle voice in the Received Text. Apparently your Lexical Parser uses the NU Text.The full meaning of the verbs does not always appear in our translations. If I said “egeiro” I mean “I rise up.” The pronoun “I” is not present but the form of the word is first person active so “I” is supplied. If I say “egeiromai” I mean “I raise myself up” because the “mai” ending is middle voice. It is written “egeiromai” in both Greek Texts in Matthew 27:63.
MIDDLE VOICE:
“In the middle voice the subject is acting so as to participate in some way in the results of the action. There is no English equivalent for this Greek construction. Ths subject rather than the action is the point of emphasis. Special attention is called to the subject” (Essentials of New testament Greek Ray Summers, Broadman Press, p. 38).
“The middle voice represents the subject as participating in the results of the action, as acting in relation to itself, as having personal interest in the action, as being intimately involved in the action. There is no equivalent in English” (Syntax of New Testament Greek, James A. Brooks & Carlton L. Winbery, University Press of America, p. 111).
Matthew 20:19: “…and the third day He shall raise [Himself] up again.” (Received Text)
Matthew 27:63: “…that deceiver said , 'After three days I will raise [Myself] up.” (Received Text and NU Text agree).
Received Text and NU Text agree also on Mark 8:31:
“…and after three days to raise [Himself] up.”
Jesus said that He had complete authority over His own life. He said that He had the authority to lay it down and also to take it again on His own authority. His raising Himself up from the dead should not be a problem for one who calls herself a Christian.
thinker
Lightenup said:
Quote Thinker,
Here is several translations of Matt 27:63 and none of them indicate that Jesus said He would raise Himself. The word “Myself” is not in the verse. “I will rise again” is in the passive voice. See here and click on the Greek Lexical Parser:Kathi,
The lexical parser you use is wrong! The verb “egeiromai” is middle voice.Quote So, so far Thinker, you have not given me any scripture that clearly says that He raised Himself from the dead in the active voice. That should tell you something. I don't know where you get this middle voice stuff but I have looked in three interlinears and looked at the morphology of the verbs and they are all in the passive voice as I have demonstrated. I get it from the Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised by Moulton. And I have given you John 2:19 which you have explained away by saying that Jesus was referring to His ascension.
thinker
TO KATHI:
Kathi,
This discussion has caused me to get out my Greek textbooks on the middle voice. The verses in Matthew 20:19 and 27:63 are indeed written in the middle voice. However, the middle may sometimes function as a “middle-passive.” I will get back to you on this.About the passive verb ἠγέρθη in John 2:22 please see the excerpt and link I have provided below:
Quote …In the case of this particular verb it is perhaps worth
noting that New Testament texts describing the resurrection of Jesus often use this verb in the
aorist form ἠγέρθη which may be understood to mean either “he arose” or “he was raised.”
Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he
was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible
to determine with any certainty.http://artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdf
The explanation above deals a death blow to your conclusions. This grammarian says that the passive form ἠγέρθη may be intransitive rather than passive. In John 2:19 Jesus had just said that He would raise up His body using the active voice. Therefore, the passive ἠγέρθη in verse 22 should be understood as intransitive.
If Jesus was talking about His returning to the Father then John could easily have said so. But instead He said that the disciples remembered His words WHEN He was raised (intransitive) from the dead.
thinker
Kathi…………The problem here is were dealing with deluded minds and it is impossible for them to get it , it simple has not been give to them to understand what we are saying it's a waste of time. If GOD has sent into them a deluding spirit (intellect) it can not be changed by us, it must be GOD that Opens their minds to His Truth. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 23 2009,09:29) TO KATHI: Kathi,
This discussion has caused me to get out my Greek textbooks on the middle voice. The verses in Matthew 20:19 and 27:63 are indeed written in the middle voice. However, the middle may sometimes function as a “middle-passive.” I will get back to you on this.About the passive verb ἠγέρθη in John 2:22 please see the excerpt and link I have provided below:
Quote …In the case of this particular verb it is perhaps worth
noting that New Testament texts describing the resurrection of Jesus often use this verb in the
aorist form ἠγέρθη which may be understood to mean either “he arose” or “he was raised.”
Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he
was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible
to determine with any certainty.http://artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdf
The explanation above deals a death blow to your conclusions. This grammarian says that the passive form ἠγέρθη may be intransitive rather than passive. In John 2:19 Jesus had just said that He would raise up His body using the active voice. Therefore, the passive ἠγέρθη in verse 22 should be understood as intransitive.
If Jesus was talking about His returning to the Father then John could easily have said so. But instead He said that the disciples remembered His words WHEN He was raised (intransitive) from the dead.
thinker
Thinker,
Whether or not your resource says middle or middle passive and mine say passive, neither say that the verb in question is in the active voice. If it is the middle voice that can simply mean that Jesus participated in the action of raising up but was initiated externally. So, He did not initiate His resurrection but once initiated He may have participated in it. Think about a person getting up after an alarm clock went off.So, let's look at the form of the verb in John 12:17 and John 12:9 where Jesus raised Lazarus…its in the aorist active indicative.
Next, you say that your link deals a death blow to my conclusions. How do you get that???
Here is the passage:
John 2:19-2219 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
NASUNow my comments on that passage:
V. 20 “I will raise it up.” “Raise” is first person, singular, future, active, indicative.
v.22 “He was raised from the dead.” “Was raised” is third person, singular, aorist, passive, indicative.If there were two types of raising, one that the Father initiated before Jesus saw Mary, and the one the Son did on His own, then these two different voices were not meant to mean the same thing.
Notice that in v.22 the disciples remembered what Jesus said and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
Mark 16:10-14
10 She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping.
11 When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it.
12 After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.
13 They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.
14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.
NASU
So remembering what He had said and remembering and believing what He had said were two different occasions.Kathi
Lightenup said:
Quote Thinker,
Whether or not your resource says middle or middle passive and mine say passive, neither say that the verb in question is in the active voice. If it is the middle voice that can simply mean that Jesus participated in the action of raising up but was initiated externally. So, He did not initiate His resurrection but once initiated He may have participated in it. Think about a person getting up after an alarm clock went off.Kathi,
The middle voice simply means that the subject participates in some way in the action. You say that it necessarily means that Jesus did not initiate His resurrection. But if He participated in the action in some way then He could have initiated His resurrection. John 2:19 explicitly says that He would raise up His own body from the dead.The Jews asked from Him a sign showing that He had the authority to cleanse the temple. Jesus replied saying “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.” He was speaking about the temple of His body.
MIDDLE VOICE:
Quote “In the middle voice the subject is acting so as to participate in some way in the results of the action. There is no English equivalent for this Greek construction. Ths subject rather than the action is the point of emphasis. Special attention is called to the subject” (Essentials of New testament Greek Ray Summers, Broadman Press, p. 38). “The middle voice represents the subject as participating in the results of the action, as acting in relation to itself, as having personal interest in the action, as being intimately involved in the action. There is no equivalent in English” (Syntax of New Testament Greek, James A. Brooks & Carlton L. Winbery, University Press of America, p. 111).
So, let's look at the form of the verb in John 12:17 and John 12:9 where Jesus raised Lazarus…its in the aorist active indicative.Btw, in Mark 9:31 it is clearly the middle voice in the NU text which you trust. And your Lexical Parser does not comment on the voice it at all. So Jesus participated in His resurrection in some way. You cannot prove that he did not initiate His resurrection. John 2:19 says that He did initiate it.
You challenged me to deal with the “passive” in John 2:22 which I did. The verb ἠγέρθη is intransitive and therefore not passive in function. You must acquaint yourself with the difference between form and function.
Lightenup said:
Quote So, let's look at the form of the verb in John 12:17 and John 12:9 where Jesus raised Lazarus…its in the aorist active indicative.
OF COURSE THE FORM OF THE VERB IS ACTIVE. JESUS, NOT LAZARUS IS THE SUBJECT DOING THE ACTION! What kind of argument is this.
Lightenup said:
Quote Now my comments on that passage:
V. 20 “I will raise it up.” “Raise” is first person, singular, future, active, indicative.
v.22 “He was raised from the dead.” “Was raised” is third person, singular, aorist, passive, indicative.I have already pointed out that the verb ἠγέρθη is intransitive and does not function as a passive verb. It could have been translated “And when He arose from the dead. We have an example of this in Matthew 14:2:
NKJV: “This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead.”
NASB: “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead.”
It is the same passive verb form ἠγέρθη as in John 2:22 and it is not translated in the passive. The verb is intransitive which means its voice is not relevant. The passive form of the verb in John 2:22 is not relevant. But the active form of the verb in verse 19 IS DETERMINATIVE.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 23 2009,22:26) Lightenup said: Quote Thinker,
Whether or not your resource says middle or middle passive and mine say passive, neither say that the verb in question is in the active voice. If it is the middle voice that can simply mean that Jesus participated in the action of raising up but was initiated externally. So, He did not initiate His resurrection but once initiated He may have participated in it. Think about a person getting up after an alarm clock went off.Kathi,
The middle voice simply means that the subject participates in some way in the action. You say that it necessarily means that Jesus did not initiate His resurrection. But if He participated in the action in some way then He could have initiated His resurrection. John 2:19 explicitly says that He would raise up His own body from the dead.The Jews asked from Him a sign showing that He had the authority to cleanse the temple. Jesus replied saying “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.” He was speaking about the temple of His body.
MIDDLE VOICE:
Quote “In the middle voice the subject is acting so as to participate in some way in the results of the action. There is no English equivalent for this Greek construction. Ths subject rather than the action is the point of emphasis. Special attention is called to the subject” (Essentials of New testament Greek Ray Summers, Broadman Press, p. 38). “The middle voice represents the subject as participating in the results of the action, as acting in relation to itself, as having personal interest in the action, as being intimately involved in the action. There is no equivalent in English” (Syntax of New Testament Greek, James A. Brooks & Carlton L. Winbery, University Press of America, p. 111).
So, let's look at the form of the verb in John 12:17 and John 12:9 where Jesus raised Lazarus…its in the aorist active indicative.Btw, in Mark 9:31 it is clearly the middle voice in the NU text which you trust. And your Lexical Parser does not comment on the voice it at all. So Jesus participated in His resurrection in some way. You cannot prove that he did not initiate His resurrection. John 2:19 says that He did initiate it.
You challenged me to deal with the “passive” in John 2:22 which I did. The verb ἠγέρθη is intransitive and therefore not passive in function. You must acquaint yourself with the difference between form and function.
Lightenup said:
Quote So, let's look at the form of the verb in John 12:17 and John 12:9 where Jesus raised Lazarus…its in the aorist active indicative.
OF COURSE THE FORM OF THE VERB IS ACTIVE. JESUS, NOT LAZARUS IS THE SUBJECT DOING THE ACTION! What kind of argument is this.Lightenup said:
Quote Now my comments on that passage:
V. 20 “I will raise it up.” “Raise” is first person, singular, future, active, indicative.
v.22 “He was raised from the dead.” “Was raised” is third person, singular, aorist, passive, indicative.I have already pointed out that the verb ἠγέρθη is intransitive and does not function as a passive verb. It could have been translated “And when He arose from the dead. We have an example of this in Matthew 14:2:
NKJV: “This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead.”
NASB: “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead.”
It is the same passive verb form ἠγέρθη as in John 2:22 and it is not translated in the passive. The verb is intransitive which means its voice is not relevant. The passive form of the verb in John 2:22 is not relevant. But the active form of the verb in verse 19 IS DETERMINATIVE.
thinker
Thinker you put this in your post to me:Quote About the passive verb ἠγέρθη in John 2:22 please see the excerpt and link I have provided below: Quote
…In the case of this particular verb it is perhaps worth
noting that New Testament texts describing the resurrection of Jesus often use this verb in the
aorist form ἠγέρθη which may be understood to mean either “he arose” or “he was raised.”
Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he
was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible
to determine with any certainty.http://artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdf
The explanation above deals a death blow to your conclusions. This grammarian says that the passive form ἠγέρθη may be intransitive rather than passive. In John 2:19 Jesus had just said that He would raise up His body using the active voice. Therefore, the passive ἠγέρθη in verse 22 should be understood as intransitive.
Your resource says:
Quote Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he
was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible to determine with any certainty.Your resource did not make a conclusive decision as to whether the verb was passive or intransitive…did you miss that? You did however go even further than your resource when you declared it to be intransitive. He did not go that far. He said that it depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances it may be impossible to determine with any certainty.
Never the less, the verb is not active. You haven't shown me any follow up verse to Jesus raising up His body on the third day that is in the active voice. Yet, I have shown you that in the case of Lazarus when Jesus actually did do the raising Himself, the verb IS in the active voice. I'll bet we can find plenty of scriptures that use the verb in the active voice that mention God the Father raising Him up and not your supposed middle voice verb.
You provided the example of a verse about John the Baptist here:
Quote
NKJV: “This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead.”NASB: “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead.”
Why don't you get it. You are trying to prove that it can be written as a passive and an intransitive but what does it matter anyway because we know that John the Baptist didn't raise himself up. The only thing you have proven is that it can be written either way and neither way indicates the subject doing the action.
I think that you are being subjective and making decisions beyond your resources, IMO. Show me the verses speaking about the Father raising up Jesus that uses the same “intransitive” verb. I would bet that they were all in the active voice and that there is a definite distinction. If that is the case you ought to at lease consider what I am saying as possible. The Father was the only one that raised Jesus to the life He had before He left Mary at the tomb. OK, there is my next challenge to you.
Kathi
Hi,
Those who hope to be saved in another spirit than the spirit of God in Jesus are deluded beyond belief.Hi Kathi
I am back and have a couple of post to catch up to as time permits!
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2009,01:24)
Keith,
Is your fleshly body an “it” or is it a complete person on its own?
My fleshly body is not a “person” at all. Scripturally my body is simply the house that I and God lives in!Now we know that if the “earthly tent we live in is destroyed” (also see 2 Cor 6:16, James 2:26,) , we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY DWELLING, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 2 Cor 5:1-4
Kathi, I have already shown you that the “Lord is the Spirit” and sense we are created in his likeness then we also are Spirit. God is Spirit! Just as God is a Spirit being we are Spirit beings who live in a body that is animated by our Spirits. The body cannot do anything without the life that dwells in it!
Your problem is you are saying God has more than “One Spirit”, but the scriptures clearly teach there is only One Spirit that we have received and that is the Spirit of God. I have shown you that the “the Spirit of God” and “God who is Spirit” is the same thing!
Now “the Lord is the Spirit”, and where “the Spirit of the Lord” is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Paul here makes no distinction. Just as when we might say that the “Man is Spirit” and “the Spirit of the Man” understands the things of man, is speaking of the man, same thing! The Spirit of the man is the man!
Again, David addressed the Lord like this…
Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord. You hem me in–behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain“. “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast“. Ps 139:4-10
Where the Spirit of God is there is God! The Arians in their carnal understanding of God the Father being limited in heaven somewhere in a “spiritual body” that looks like a mans body and that he just shoots this power or amorphous Spirit out from himself that dwells everywhere and has all these magical powers is false!
This all goes back to not believing that God can take on any form that he chooses and still be God!
In fact God has taken on a form when he came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. (Phil 2:6-8, Acts 20:28), and now all the fullness of Deity is settled down in Jesus very own body!
God who is Spirit can pour himself out in measures just as he can reveal himself in different degrees of Glory! Still you have the same God and still one Spirit. Remember God is Plural yet he is “One”!
The Father the Son and the “Comforter” are one Spirit, yet they are three persons! Any other view denies certain scriptures and does not accept the scripture as a whole!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2009,01:24) Can your mind be intimately associated with your fleshly body? The mind isn't the flesh and the flesh isn't the mind. They are both parts of a person yet they are intimately associated with each other. If you stub your toe, your toe sends messages to your mind and your mind responds by causing you to grab your foot or something. Two parts intimately associated with each other. Flesh can hurt, feel, carry out instruction like walk, run, sit because it is connected to the mind. If the flesh was not in an intimate relationship with the mind it could not do anything.
But that which is flesh, is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit. We are new creations and we have been made alive, by being born again by his Spirit. Our old man or old nature is dead. Our new man is alive because of the Spirit. My flesh is only alive because of the Spirit in the body that quickens my mortal body. But my flesh tent will become a Spiritual tent by putting on immortality and being made unto his (Jesus) incorruptible Body! God doesn’t dwell in a flesh tent so your analogy is a futile attempt to show that the Spirit of God is not a person. Using your analogy then you would be saying God is dwelling in his Spirit (or spiritual body). The only Body God is dwelling in is his Temple of which we are, and the fullness of Deity is settled down in the head of that body, Jesus who also is filling the Temple and is living in us!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2009,01:24) My point is that a part of a person can be intimately associated with the mind of the person. The Spirit of the Father is intimately associated with mind of the Father. The Spirit of the Father is where He feels emotions,
What you are saying here is the “It” you call the Spirit of the Father is where the Father feels emotions! The Father is the Spirit, for God is Spirit and doesn't need an “It” to feel!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2009,01:24) His mind thinks the emotions and the Spirit feels them and expresses them. That is how the Spirit of the Father loves, it receives of the mind and expresses what is received. The Father does the loving THROUGH His Spirit.
No the Father doesn’t need anything to Love through, the Father who is Spirit can love independently of “a Spirit” or an “It” or some amorphous power! He can love through his Spirit because his Spirit is who he is!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2009,01:24) Man feels physical pain in his body, man feels emotional pain in his spirit. His spirit is not his body and his body is not his spirit yet they are both intimately associated with each other and the mind of the man
But that which is Spirit is Spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2009,01:24) His spirit is personal to himself but not to Joe Schmoe down the street. The Spirit of the Father is personal to the Father.
This is an example of two parts intimately associated with each other even so much that when they are separated the “body” is dead:
James 2:26
26 For ju
st as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. NASUKathi
The Spirit of God is not the personal Spirit of the Father or Jesus, because God is Spirit and God is “One Spirit” and the Father and Jesus share the same Spirit that proceeds from them and that is the “Comforter” the Holy Spirit which Jesus says is “Another”!And I will ask the Father, and he will give you “ANOTHER COUNSELOR” to be with you forever– John 14:16
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit,”WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME”, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26
And yet we read…
Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and “we will come to him and make our home with him“. John 14:23
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 21 2009,16:49) TO KEITH: Here is another verse,
“The SPIRIT and the bride say, 'Come!'….Whosoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely.”
The Spirit speaks to people and invites them to come and drink of the water of life.
thinker
Hi JackYes, why didn't John say the Father and the Son say come?
The three are taught in scripture as being distinct in person and yet as being “One Spirit”, “One God”!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
So when scripture refers to the Spirit of God[eg in Rom 8] it does not mean the Spirit of God?Hi WJ,
So in Ps 139 where the Spirit of God is, God is.
That makes sense as God in heaven manifests by His Spirit in His creation.Hi WJ,
So when the Spirit of the Father speaks through us when we are called before a judge is that the Spirit of God?When God pours out His Spirit as in Jl 2 is he pouring out another person?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2009,22:28)
As you can see there are several “spirit of” phrases in the context. We see the:
Spirit of God
Spirit of Christ
Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead
spirit of bondage
Spirit of adoptionI believe that the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead, i.e. this Spirit is the Spirit of the Father
But it is also the Spirit of Christ and the Comforter!
Can’t you see Kathi that the terms you mention are all speaking of the “One Spirit” that we have received…
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature “BUT BY THE SPIRIT”, if “the Spirit of God” lives in you. And if anyone does not have “the Spirit of Christ”, he does not belong to Christ. Rom 8:9
Here we see that the “Spirit of God” is the “Spirit of Christ”. Paul uses all the different terms referring to the “One God” that lives in us! The Father, Son and Comforter (advocate) each playing their own role and sharing the same Spirit! One God, One Spirit and three persons! I have shown you scritpures that all three live in us yet there is only “One Spirit”, or “One God” in us! Shall we look at them again?
WJ
Quote For David…. Quote Did jesus have the same spirit as believers? The confusion is that the word “spirit” is used in a great variety of ways.
“God is a spirit” the Bible says, in the same way that we are humans.
But, God also HAS his holy spirit, and the majority of cases in the Bible that refer to spirit are referring to God’s spirit or God’s holy spirit.So when asking: Did Jesus have the same spirit as believers….yes, he had the same holy spirit.
Example of these 2 uses:
Quote Now “the Lord is the Spirit”, and where “the Spirit of the Lord” is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17 “God IS a spirit.” (John 4:24) That's what he IS.
But the spirit of the Lord, God's holy spirit is what he HAS.Confusing these two will bring problems.
More than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.” These are all possessive uses of the holy spirit.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29
God is a spirit and where God's spirit (his holy spirit) is, there is freedom.
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