Did jesus have the same spirit as believers?

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 23 2009,02:46)

Thinker………Jesus said GOD was SPIRIT. You can't see SPIRIT thats why he said, No Man Has seen GOD at anytime (WHY) because GOD is SPIRIT and SPIRIT is INTELLECT and you can't see (intellect) and it is expressed in WORD. WE are washed by the WORDS of GOD, Let this (MIND)or (intellect) be in you that was (ALSO) in Jesus Christ our Lord. ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL< How, by (HIS) SPIRIT (intellect) . When are you people going to GET IT?, THERE IS (NO) TRIUNE GOD, ONLY ONE GOD IN (ALL) AND THROUGH (ALL). Accept this and dump the Trinitarian Delusion. IMO

Peace and love……………………gene

Gene,
Paul said that it is the Spirit OF CHRIST or Christ's Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead (vs. 9-11). Deal with it.

thinker

August 22, 2009 at 4:09 pm#141773

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Thinker……….No He did not say “OR Christ's SPIRIT”, as if it was His PERSONAL Spirit. That is trinitarian speaking . The SPIRIT OF CHRIST is the (SAME SPIRIT THAT CHRIST JESUS) (HAD) (IN) HIM> And that was the Spirit from the FATHER (HOLY SPIRIT) LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU WHICH WAS (ALSO) IN CHRIST JESUS OUR Lord. NO difference same mind same GOD same Spirit. Man why you can't get it thinker. So clear so simple it's like a barrier has been placed in you thinking and you Just can not understand it. IMO

peace and love………………………gene

August 22, 2009 at 5:22 pm#141776

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,05:18)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 22 2009,14:59)

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,13:39)

WorshippingJesus said to kathi:

Quote

That was my point to Marty is that the Spirit in context of Rom 8:8:26, 27 cannot be the Father or Jesus.

If you say the Spirit here is the Father then it would not be the Father through the Holy Spirit who gives life to our bodies!

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be sent from the Father and assume a subordinate role to the Son (John 16). So the Holy Spirit cannot be the Father.

thinker

Hi TT,
So if the Spirit of our God has amazing abilities then it must be another person?

You preach what men taught 200 years after Jesus.

WJ tells us the Spirit is ever one with God.

Do you endorse Kathi's view that the Spirit is the Father?

thinker

Thinker,
When scriptures say “Spirit of God” I do not think that the Spirit is a person, therefore I do not think the Spirit in that context is the Father for the Father is a “person.” I think when scriptures refer to the “Spirit of God” then it is referring to an intimate part of God that does many functions as directed by the mind of God.

The Spirit of God is the Spirit OF the Father as in PART OF the Father that the Father extends to us through His Son.
Kathi

August 22, 2009 at 5:31 pm#141777

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,06:48)

Lightenup said:

Quote

Keith,
No, I don't think you are stupid but I beg you to slow down, get off the defensive, take a breath and analyze the verse. You can go here to see that the article translated “of Him who” is in the masculine singular genitive just like the verb “raised” which is also the masculine singular genitive.

Here is the verse:
8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I am going to add commas and parentheses to separate the phrases so you might be able to get the meaning better. I am also going to add, in italics, who the pronoun is referring to.

8:11
But if the Spirit (of Him the Father who raised Jesus, from the dead) dwells in you, He the Father (who raised Christ Jesus, from the dead) will also give life to your mortal bodies, through His the Father's Spirit, who dwells in you.

Kathi,
What am I going to do with you? You add the word “Father” when in verse 9 Paul CLEARLY identified the Spirit as belonging to Christ.

“…And if anyone does not have Christ's Spirit he does not belong to Christ….And if His Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you….”

There it is! So do it again and get it right this time. I am going to add the pronoun to whom it refers,

“But if (Christ's) Spirit who raised Jesus, from the dead dwells in you, then He (the Spirit) who raised Christ Jesus, from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies, through His (Christ' Spirit), who dwells in you.”

You stumble because of the “of Him” reading in the Engish. But the genetive is possessive and is literally “His Spirit.” And the context demands that “His Spirit” be identified as Christ's Spirit. Christ was raised up by His own Spirit in this context.

thinker

Thinker,
I would like to challenge you to show us where Christ (in the active voice of the Greek, not the passive voice) fulfilled this verse here:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
NASU

When you find it, your eyes may be opened to a different understanding of who it was that “actively” raised Christ from the dead and what Christ is referring to in John 2:19.

Are you interested?

Kathi

August 22, 2009 at 5:36 pm#141778

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 21 2009,21:39)

WorshippingJesus said to kathi:

Quote

That was my point to Marty is that the Spirit in context of Rom 8:8:26, 27 cannot be the Father or Jesus.

If you say the Spirit here is the Father then it would not be the Father through the Holy Spirit who gives life to our bodies!

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be sent from the Father and assume a subordinate role to the Son (John 16). So the Holy Spirit cannot be the Father.

thinker

Thinker,
I would like to handle one thing at a time. For right now take my above challenge in the previous post and let's clarify who raised Christ from the dead. You can ask me this later. I have an explanation for you.

Kathi

August 22, 2009 at 6:33 pm#141787

Participant

Hi TT,
The Lord is the Spirit.
Jesus is Lord.

August 22, 2009 at 6:57 pm#141789

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 23 2009,05:31)

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,06:48)

Lightenup said:

Quote

I am going to add commas and parentheses to separate the phrases so you might be able to get the meaning better. I am also going to add, in italics, who the pronoun is referring to.

Kathi,
What am I going to do with you? You add the word “Father” when in verse 9 Paul CLEARLY identified the Spirit as belonging to Christ.

“…And if anyone does not have Christ's Spirit he does not belong to Christ….And if His Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you….”

There it is! So do it again and get it right this time. I am going to add the pronoun to whom it refers,

thinker

Thinker,
I would like to challenge you to show us where Christ (in the active voice of the Greek, not the passive voice) fulfilled this verse here:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
NASU

When you find it, your eyes may be opened to a different understanding of who it was that “actively” raised Christ from the dead and what Christ is referring to in John 2:19.

Are you interested?

Kathi

Kathi,
I am disappointed. I showed you from 8:9 that Paul was speaking about the Spirit of Christ saying that His Spirit raised up Jesus from the dead. You totally avoided the content of my post and issued an unrelated challenge from John 2:19. I am already discussing John 2:19 in another forum.

You have conceded my point by default because you failed to address it by changing the subject.

thinker

August 22, 2009 at 7:25 pm#141793

Participant

Thinker,
If you believe that Romans 8:9 refers to the Spirit of Christ raising Christ from the dead instead of the Spirit of the Father then show me in another passage that Christ raised Himself from the dead in an active voice. Make it a clear scripture.
Kathi

August 22, 2009 at 7:40 pm#141794

Participant

Hi TT,
Jesus spoke of raising his body, not himself.
He died and is alive only in God's Spirit.

August 22, 2009 at 8:10 pm#141796

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 23 2009,07:25)

Isaiah 45:10-12 (King James Version)

10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Notice it says MY SONS and notice it says ALL THEIR HOST have I commanded. So there you Go, Jesus even now is of the Host of Heaven for God commanded him and is indeed his commander.

Now if God commands Jesus how can he be Jesus?

John 10:17-19 (King James Version)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So Jesus does not even take up his own life without the command being given to him by the Father, therefore he did not raise himself any more than the earth formed itself or the waters divided themselves for they also acted according to the Command of God.

August 22, 2009 at 8:50 pm#141798

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 22 2009,13:31)

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,06:48)

Lightenup said:

Quote

I am going to add commas and parentheses to separate the phrases so you might be able to get the meaning better. I am also going to add, in italics, who the pronoun is referring to.

Kathi,
What am I going to do with you? You add the word “Father” when in verse 9 Paul CLEARLY identified the Spirit as belonging to Christ.

“…And if anyone does not have Christ's Spirit he does not belong to Christ….And if His Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you….”

There it is! So do it again and get it right this time. I am going to add the pronoun to whom it refers,

thinker

Thinker,
I would like to challenge you to show us where Christ (in the active voice of the Greek, not the passive voice) fulfilled this verse here:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
NASU

When you find it, your eyes may be opened to a different understanding of who it was that “actively” raised Christ from the dead and what Christ is referring to in John 2:19.

Are you interested?

Kathi

Hi Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 22 2009,13:31)

When you find it, your eyes may be opened to a different understanding of who it was that “actively” raised Christ from the dead and what Christ is referring to in John 2:19.

Isn't Jesus own words good enough for you?

Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I WILL RAISE IT AGAIN IN THREE DAYS.

The Greek word for “Raised” is in the “active” voice!

And John also narrates and tells us it was Jesus speaking of himself…

The Jews replied, “It has taken forty six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” BUT THE TEMPLE *HE* HAD SPOKEN OF WAS HIS BODY.” John 2:18-21

Also, John and the disciples remembered Jesus words when he rose from the dead…

After he was raised from the dead, “his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and *THE WORDS THAT JESUS HAD SPOKEN*“. John2:22

Little wonder Thomas later said, “My Lord and my God”!

Jesus could have said “my Father will raise it up”, but he didn’t. In fact Jesus was in the center of the earth for three days and three nights alive like Jonah who prayed to the Lord!

Do not be afraid of those who “kill the body but cannot kill the soul“. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy “both soul and body in hell“. Matt 10:28

The Spirit/Soul of man is only killed in hell by God!

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

The Soul\Spirit leaves the Body and is present with the Lord or in Hades! This is where the Arians err in their basic Christology, is they think that we are mere flesh and blood, when in fact we are Spirit/soul beings that live in these flesh tents that will be changed someday. We are made in the image of God, and after his likeness, who is a Spirit being,

They could kill his body but they could not kill his Spirit/Soul. “The resurrection and the life”, Jesus Eternal Spirit, for he also by John's own words is called the “Eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning. 1 John 1:1-3

Jesus “Eternal Spirit did not die!

I have not had much time to post and won't untill probably Monday for I am going out with my wife tonight and also have to seek the Lord and pray for I am preaching in the morning in my Church. I am wanting to be totally prepared with a fresh word from God in which he has been already speaking!

Blessings WJ

August 22, 2009 at 9:07 pm#141799

Participant

Keith,
I'm going out with my husband tonight too! Woohoo for date night

I fully believe Jesus's words that He raised His body on the third day but I don't believe He did that till AFTER He saw Mary at the tomb on the third day. You see, I don't think that Jesus was saying that He was going to raise Himself to life. He said that He will raise Himself up on the third day…up to where???

Answer: Up to the Father.

This happened on the third day and then He came back to walk with the guys on the Road to Emmaus that same day. Jesus was going back and forth to heaven until His final ascension, IMO. Read here:

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'”
NASU
Have fun tonight,
Kathi

August 22, 2009 at 9:17 pm#141800

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 22 2009,17:07)

Keith,
I'm going out with my husband tonight too! Woohoo for date night

Answer: Up to the Father.

This happened on the third day and then He came back to walk with the guys on the Road to Emmaus that same day. Jesus was going back and forth to heaven until His final ascension, IMO. Read here:

Kathi

Read the context closely!

I take the narrative of Johns own words over yours any day, no offence but you are wrong…

**AFTER** HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, HIS DISCIPLES RECALLED WHAT HE HAD SAID…

Not after his ascension!

August 22, 2009 at 9:32 pm#141802

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 23 2009,09:17)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 22 2009,17:07)

Keith,
I'm going out with my husband tonight too! Woohoo for date night

Answer: Up to the Father.

This happened on the third day and then He came back to walk with the guys on the Road to Emmaus that same day. Jesus was going back and forth to heaven until His final ascension, IMO. Read here:

Kathi

Read the context closely!

I take the narrative of Johns own words over yours any day, no offence but you are wrong…

**AFTER** HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, HIS DISCIPLES RECALLED WHAT HE HAD SAID…

Not after his ascension!

Jesus said: This commandment have I received of my Father.

So how is Jesus doing it?

August 22, 2009 at 9:41 pm#141804

Participant

Hi LU,
Jesus was indwelled by the Spirit of God till he died.
Now he is enlived only by that Spirit
The Lord is the Spirit.

God and His Son can come to us in that Spirit.
We can fellowship and communion with the Father and the Son in the Spirit.

August 22, 2009 at 10:13 pm#141816

Participant

Keith,
The disciples recalled His words after He was raised from the dead, true. Look at the verb “raised” and notice that it is in the passive tense:
John 2:22
22 So when He was raised from the dead…
NASU

Also, Jesus told them that He was going back to the Father during His time with them. Those were His words also that they remembered. Jesus didn't tell Mary to tell the disciples that He was alive but to tell them that He was going to ascend to the Father, His God. For Jesus, going back to the Father was the goal, not just being resurrected.

See how Jesus said that He would return to the Father:

John 13:1
13 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father,
NASU

John 14:28-29
28 “You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
29 “Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.
NASU
Look closely at that passage John 14:28-29
What did He tell them before it happened? That He was going to go to the Father. After He went to the Father, the same day, He met them in the upper room. He went away from them when He died, He went to the Father, and then He came back to them on the same day.

When does the scripture say that He went to the Father after His death…just after He spoke to Mary at the tomb when He told her:
John 20:17-19
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'”
18 Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.
Jesus among His Disciples 19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
NASU

Remember, Jesus saw His brethren later that same day. his ascension was not some future ascension, it was the returning to the Father for a little while and then once again seeing His brethren so that their grieving would turn to gladness.

John 16:16-20
Jesus' Death and Resurrection Foretold 16 “A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me.”
17 Some of His disciples then said to one another, “What is this thing He is telling us, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?”
18 So they were saying, “What is this that He says, 'A little while'? We do not know what He is talking about.”
19 Jesus knew that they wished to question Him, and He said to them, “Are you deliberating together about this, that I said, 'A little while, and you will not see Me, and again a little while, and you will see Me'?
20 “Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will grieve, but your grief will be turned into joy.
NASU

Jesus returned to the Father BEFORE their grief was turned to joy. When was their grief turned to joy? Was it not when He appeared to them on the third day? Jesus's words to them were that He was going away for a little while and going to the Father, then He would see them again after that. He saw them on the first day of the week, the day Mary saw Him at the tomb.

So, again, the order of events…
Mary saw Jesus at the tomb…alive, yet before He returned to the Father. He ascended Himself up to the Father then,…and after that He came back and walked with the guys on the road to Emmaus and then on to the upper room to appear to the disciples.

You can read Jesus's words for yourself. He taught the disciples that He was returning to the Father before it happened. He told Mary to tell them that He was going to do what He had told His disciples and wanted them to recall His words. They remembered His words when they realized that He actually did go away for a little while and returned to the Father. That all happened after He was raised from the dead (passively) and after He raised Himself (actively) to the Father. So you see, they remembered His words after Mary went and told them, not before.

Kathi

August 22, 2009 at 10:33 pm#141818

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2009,09:41)

Hi LU,
Jesus was indwelled by the Spirit of God till he died.
Now he is enlived only by that Spirit
The Lord is the Spirit.

God and His Son can come to us in that Spirit.
We can fellowship and communion with the Father and the Son in the Spirit.

Yes Nick,
We have fellowship in the trinity. :;):

thinker

August 22, 2009 at 11:00 pm#141824

Participant

Hi TT,
So if you do not share the Spirit of Christ you will probably make another god for yourself.

August 23, 2009 at 12:52 am#141841

Participant

Lightenup said:

Quote

The disciples recalled His words after He was raised from the dead, true. Look at the verb “raised” and notice that it is in the passive tense:
John 2:22
22 So when He was raised from the dead…
NASU

Also, Jesus told them that He was going back to the Father during His time with them. Those were His words also that they remembered. Jesus didn't tell Mary to tell the disciples that He was alive but to tell them that He was going to ascend to the Father, His God. For Jesus, going back to the Father was the goal, not just being resurrected.

Kathi,
You are wrong! Sorry . You say they remembered His words when He ascended. But Luke's account clearly says that it was upon the announcement they received from the angel that they remembered,

Quote

5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’” And they remembered His words (24:5-7).

They remembered His words WHEN He was risen just as John's narrative indicates. They remembered His words BEFORE He ever appeared to anyone. And guess what? Jesus claimed He would rise from the dead using the middle voice which means that He acted upon Himself.

Quote

…and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the nations to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again (Matthew 20:19)

It is middle voice Kathi. It means, “And the third day He will raise Himself again.”

Now the next verse is of special interest because it also uses the middle voice and speaks directly to your ascension theory as well. The chief priests and the Pharisees asked Pilate to guard the tomb because Jesus had claimed that He would raise Himself again,

Quote

On the next day, which followed the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, 'After three days I will raise [Myself].' Therefore, command that the tomb be made secure, until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first.” (matthew 27:63-64)

All those who heard Him say “I will raise it up” or “I will raise Myself again” thought He was speaking about His resurrection from the dead and not His ascension.

btw, you have not replied to my point from Romans 8:9 that it was the Spirit OF CHRIST that raised Jesus from the dead.

thinker

August 23, 2009 at 2:00 am#141852