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Kerwin said:
Quote I take this scripture as being literal. Being that is so I do not know of “heaven and earth” disappearing. Since that is so and Jesus did not like then it follows that this teaching is binding to this day. kerwin,
Heaven and earth as Jesus used it was a Hebrew merism for Israel which did pass away in ad70. The law in reference to the LETTER has been abolished. Paul said that the “letter kills” (2 Cor. 3).thinker
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 26 2009,07:04) Irene wrote: Quote You and others that want to keep the Sabbath, need to understand what grace is. You can't be under grace and the Old Testament Law.
You quoted Ephesians 2:8 which explicitly teaches us grace is a gift from God. The Holy Spirit is a gift from God. If you choose to walk according to the way of the Holy Spirit then you will obey the commands in the Law of Mosses. If you are not obeying those commands then you are not living by the Holy Spirit.
I do not speak up in defense of keeping the Sabbath as any particular day because I believe that every day should be given to God. The day of Sabbath on the other hand was a grace to Hebrew people and their visitors in order to grant them one day of rest each day and that idea is good as workaholism is a sin against God. I also admit I may be wrong for regarding every day as the same. The New Testament is certainly not clear on the issue.
When you say that grace is the Holy Spirit, that makes no sense and you are interpreting the Scriptures. What it says is ” eternal salvation is a gift from God.”
It says that if you want to keep the Law, you have to keep the whole law. The Holy Spirit is being given so we can understand the things of God, and we are born again. Again the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel and not us.
I find what you just said somewhat unreal to say the least.
You also have not read Galatians have you? The Old covenant is not for us and never will be. Hebrews Covenant is yet to come. Maybe you should read what you just said. If I don't keep the Law of Moses, I am not living by the Spirit? Give me a break. I have never heard such a ridiculous statement. That is obviously that you are confused.
IreneIrene wrote:
Quote When you say that grace is the Holy Spirit, that makes no sense and you are interpreting the Scriptures. What it says is ” eternal salvation is a gift from God.”
What is the difference? Don’t you believe that God rewards those who persist in seeking His righteousness.
Hebrews 11:6(NIV) reads:
Quote And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
That is why the Galatians were taught that those who rejected the Spirit and chose to live by the sinful nature and thus disobey the righteous requirements of the law would not inherit the kingdom of heaven. They were also taught that they did not have anything to fear if they instead lived by the Holy Spirit because then they were doing nothing that is against the Law.
Galatians 5:19-21(NIV) reads:
Quote The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
And
Galatians 5:19:22-23(NIV) reads:
Quote But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Still, I should point out that the scripture you are referring to is merely part of the conclusion of argument about how Christians have stopped living according the law breaking ways of the world and started living in accordance to the Law because Jesus who does not sin is living in them.
Ephesians 2:1:2(NIV) reads:
Quote As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
“used to live” and “those who are disobedient” are red flags. If you didn’t understand that he goes on to clarify it by stating.
Ephesians 2:3(NIV) reads:
Quote All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Then he tells us the solution to our disobedience.
Ephesians 2:5(NIV) reads:
Quote But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
There is more but I feel I have covered enough that I made my point.
Irene wrote:
Quote It says that if you want to keep the Law, you have to keep the whole law.
You can only keep the whole Law by living by the Spirit.
Irene wrote:
Quote Again the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel and not us.
I am prone to agree with you but I do not believe you fully understand the Law of Mosses and I am still learning.
Irene wrote:
Quote If I don't keep the Law of Moses, I am not living by the Spirit? Give me a break. I have never heard such a ridiculous statement. That is obviously that you are confused.
As I pointed out above, that is what Paul taught to the Galatians; since the Law of Moses does not ban the actions of the Holy Spirit while it does ban the actions of the flesh.
Hi TT,
So Israel is heaven and earth?
Are you able to keep allegorising everything away except your odd dogmas?Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote When men concentrate on sin they cannot also be led by love
A man who is led by love will not sin. A man who is seeking to be led by love will follow Jesus and thus obey all his teachings as they will then be able to receive and live by the Holy Spirit.
I believe I agree with the rest of what you stated. I am not sure what you mean by “concentrate on sin “.
Hi K,
You cannot serve two masters.
The OT law sets negative sin boundaries.
The Law of love lets God lead into positive actions from within.
Focussing on avoiding sin burdens you with self effort but the Law of love sets you free .Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,07:38) Hi K,
You cannot serve two masters.
The OT law sets negative sin boundaries.
The Law of love lets God lead into positive actions from within.
Focusing on avoiding sin burdens you with self effort but the Law of love sets you free .2 Corinthians 6:14-18(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” “Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”I am going to conclude “touch no unclean thing” is a negative sin boundaries. Those boundaries being set by God does not mean that God does not also “lead you into positive actions from within.” They are more like no trespassing signs you will obey if you are living by the Spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,12:38) Hi K,
You cannot serve two masters.
The OT law sets negative sin boundaries.
The Law of love lets God lead into positive actions from within.
Focussing on avoiding sin burdens you with self effort but the Law of love sets you free .
Then instead of focusing on sin you should LOVE THE LAWQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,08:01) Hi K,
Thou shalt not kill is the best motivation we all need to stop doing so?
ummm
Is that what you think I meant by what I wrote?What I intended is that if you commit a murder then you are not living by the Holy Spirit. Therefore you should “resist the devil when he tempts you so that he will run away.”
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2009,21:26) Is it not more likely that it is by God's grace we receive the Spirit of God and it is by living according to the ways of the Spirit that we carry out the righteous requirements of the Law. In this way Jesus fulfills the Law just as he teaches us.
Kerwin……….That is the truth , GOD'S commandments are not done away with His Spirit of Love given to us it fulfills them in us as it did Jesus. No difference the same in us as in Him. IMOgene
To all! The Old Covenant is in Exodus 34:27 “Then the LORD said to Moses ” Write these words, according to the tenor of these words, I have made a Covenant with you and Israel.”
verse 28 “So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread or drank water and he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant the Ten Commandments.
Notice that He said to Israel.
Exodus 31:16 “Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, throughout their generation
as a perpetual covenant.verse 17 “It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…
Again notice the children of Israel.
Jesus did fulfill the law. First He magnified the Law, and made it Holy.
In Luke 22:20 ….Like also took the cup at super time, saying
“This cup is the new covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.
Then He gave us the great Commandment in
Math. 22:36 “Teacher which is the great commandment in the law?
verse 37 Jesus said to Him,” You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul,
and with all of your mind.”
verse 38 “This is the first and great commandment.
verse 39 “And the second is like it; “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
verse 40 “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
This is the New Covenant that we are under. Jesus fulfilled the Law by dying for us.
By Faith we now also are under grace. When we do sin we have a perfect Sacrifice in Jesus, who is the perfect Sacrifice in His Blood.
Ephesians 2:8 : For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is
the gift of God.
verse 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
verse 10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God Prepared
beforehand that we should walk in them.
If we walk in the Spirit we will not sin. However we are still Human and we do sin at times. But now
we have a perfect sacrifice in Jesus, and we can go through Him to the Throne of God and ask for
forgiveness of that sin. For me it hurts when I sin and the Holy Spirit of God tells me right away,
and the times between sinning is getting farther and farther apart. Let the mind which was in Jesus be
in You. I thank God daily for what all that He has done for me. And thankful to Jesus for dying for me.
One more thing. If we keep the old Testament law, we have fallen from grace, it says in
Galatians 5:4 “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law;
“you have fallen from grace.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2009,11:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,03:27) Hi K,
Why are you spending so much time discussing the Law of the Jews?
We need to learn of the kingdom, our hope.
I am discussing the teachings of Jesus and his servant Paul. I believe that we are being taught the relationship between the Law and the Spirit and that relationship is important enough that those two individuals decided to teach about it.
Hi Kerwin:This is what Paul is saying in the scriptures that you posted from Ephesians:
Quote For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Under the Law, the Jews had to offer animal sacrifices, and the high priest entered into the holy of holies on the day atonement with blood for his own sins and for the sins of the people of the nation of Israel and this was done every year, but under grace when we sin, and sin is the transgression of the law, the perfect sacrifice that has been offered once and for all washes away our sins when we repent.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 27 2009,10:21) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2009,11:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,03:27) Hi K,
Why are you spending so much time discussing the Law of the Jews?
We need to learn of the kingdom, our hope.
I am discussing the teachings of Jesus and his servant Paul. I believe that we are being taught the relationship between the Law and the Spirit and that relationship is important enough that those two individuals decided to teach about it.
Hi Kerwin:This is what Paul is saying in the scriptures that you posted from Ephesians:
Quote For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Under the Law, the Jews had to offer animal sacrifices, and the high priest entered into the holy of holies on the day atonement with blood for his own sins and for the sins of the people of the nation of Israel and this was done every year, but under grace when we sin, and sin is the transgression of the law, the perfect sacrifice that has been offered once and for all washes away our sins when we repent.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! That is correct and I agree, but I go even further and say, that we are under a new covernant.
IrenerIrene wrote:
Quote However we are still Human and we do sin at times.
Jesus is human and yet does not sin even though he was tempted even as we are.
Irene wrote:
Quote If we walk in the Spirit we will not sin.
That is why Jesus does not sin.
Mark 10:26-27(NIV) reads:
Quote The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
Marty wrote:
Quote Under the Law, the Jews had to offer animal sacrifices, and the high priest entered into the holy of holies on the day atonement with blood for his own sins and for the sins of the people of the nation of Israel and this was done every year, but under grace when we sin, and sin is the transgression of the law, the perfect sacrifice that has been offered once and for all washes away our sins when we repent.
I am confused as to what you mean. It seems to me you are stating that died in order to save some animals. I have to disagree if that is your point. Jesus died so that we would receive the Holy spirit and thus fulfill his promise that those that hunger and thirst for righteousness would be filled.
Even the Jews of today do not teach that sacrifices are necessary to please God. If you read the Law of Mosses you will find that Gentiles that lived in the lands of the 12 tribes did not have to sacrifice though the law requires them to do other things.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2009,11:59) Marty wrote: Quote Under the Law, the Jews had to offer animal sacrifices, and the high priest entered into the holy of holies on the day atonement with blood for his own sins and for the sins of the people of the nation of Israel and this was done every year, but under grace when we sin, and sin is the transgression of the law, the perfect sacrifice that has been offered once and for all washes away our sins when we repent.
I am confused as to what you mean. It seems to me you are stating that died in order to save some animals. I have to disagree if that is your point. Jesus died so that we would receive the Holy spirit and thus fulfill his promise that those that hunger and thirst for righteousness would be filled.
Even the Jews of today do not teach that sacrifices are necessary to please God. If you read the Law of Mosses you will find that Gentiles that lived in the lands of the 12 tribes did not have to sacrifice though the law requires them to do other things.
Under the Old covenant atonement had to be made, a Sacrifice an animal. Today Jesus is our perfect Sacrifice and no other is needed.
You also still belief in keeping the Sabbath, which was a covenant that God made with Israel, and not with us.
Jesus fulfilled the Old law and gave us a new.
And did i say thatJesus sinned? No, No,No.
Math. 36-40Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2009,11:59) Marty wrote: Quote Under the Law, the Jews had to offer animal sacrifices, and the high priest entered into the holy of holies on the day atonement with blood for his own sins and for the sins of the people of the nation of Israel and this was done every year, but under grace when we sin, and sin is the transgression of the law, the perfect sacrifice that has been offered once and for all washes away our sins when we repent.
I am confused as to what you mean. It seems to me you are stating that died in order to save some animals. I have to disagree if that is your point. Jesus died so that we would receive the Holy spirit and thus fulfill his promise that those that hunger and thirst for righteousness would be filled.
Even the Jews of today do not teach that sacrifices are necessary to please God. If you read the Law of Mosses you will find that Gentiles that lived in the lands of the 12 tribes did not have to sacrifice though the law requires them to do other things.
Hi Kerwin:I believe that the following scriptures from the epistle of Hebrews will explain what I mean, but if there are any questions, after you read this, please ask:
Quote Hbr 9:1 ¶ Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Hbr 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Hbr 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hbr 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Hbr 9:6 ¶ Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].
Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.
Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
Love in Christ,
Marty
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