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Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,19:05) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,20:19) How many of those prophets WERE the God who did the speaking through them?
Mike,
The prophets in the OT were not God.
That's three for three, Kathi.1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days HE has spoken to us by his Son…….
Kathi, is there any indication that the “God” has changed at all? In other words, does “HE” in verse 2 still refer to the same “God” from verse 1?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:43) Jesus in His pre-existent state did not take on the role of a prophet. In His human state, He performed the role of a prophet to the people
Read Rev 1:1, Kathi. Even now that Jesus has been exalted higher than his pre-flesh state, he is STILL a prophet of his God.Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:43) Don't be playing these 'twist the scripture' games, Mike. I have read enough on here to know that others get the same game from you.
And it is when they're in exactly this kind of situation that they start claiming those things about me – just like you did! They do it when I've got them cornered with actual scriptures that don't line up with their doctrine. (When they realize that they're cornered, out come the personal accusations against the way I'm doing things – because that's way easier than dealing with the fact that I've just shown their doctrine to be flawed.)Anyway Kathi, we are on a good roll here. Please only address the bolded question I've asked above. (It is the only part of your next post I will respond to anyway.)
Mike,
You asked:Quote Kathi, is there any indication that the “God” has changed at all? In other words, does “HE” in verse 2 still refer to the same “God” from verse 1? The God in verse 1 is the 'He' in verse 2.
So now, I ask you a question Mike, Is the God in verse 1 one of the two Gods in verse 9 of Heb 1 and who is the 'You?':
1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions 26 with the oil of rejoicing.”
And in John 1:18 is the begotten God the same one as in Heb 1:1?
If not, then there are two.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2012,09:52) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Hi Kathi.What bible translation do you have?
There is no such scripture as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.
Have they gone that evil in translating the scriptures?
Its not your fault Kathi, but you have to be very careful what bible you are reading. This world has gone so bad.greetings.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 25 2012,17:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2012,09:52) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Hi Kathi.What bible translation do you have?
There is no such scripture as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.
Have they gone that evil in translating the scriptures?
Its not your fault Kathi, but you have to be very careful what bible you are reading. This world has gone so bad.greetings.
wakeup.
wakeupKathi's bible is CALLED;
KATHY'S TRANSLATION, VERSION 1
EDITED BY KATHY,
COMMENTED BY “KATHY”
SOLD BY KATHY AT YOUR OWN RISKS
UNDERSTOOD BY KATHY
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2012,17:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,19:05) Kathi, is there any indication that the “God” has changed at all? In other words, does “HE” in verse 2 still refer to the same “God” from verse 1?
Mike,The God in verse 1 is the 'He' in verse 2.
We are now 4 for 4! Praise Jah!1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Kathi, is there any indication from this scripture that the Son through whom the God of verse 1 AND verse 2 spoke is the God who did the speaking?
Quote So now, I ask you a question Mike, Is the God in verse 1 one of the two Gods in verse 9 of Heb 1 and who is the 'You?'
There is only one who is called “God” in all of Hebrews 1. The “You” is Jesus. And God, his God, set Jesus above his companions.Kathi, I don't deny that Jesus is a god. Just like I don't deny that Satan is a god. But neither of them are God Almighty. Instead, they are both creations of that One.
Please just stick to the questions. (I don't mind if you ask one of your own as we go, though.)
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,18:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2012,09:52) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Hi Kathi.What bible translation do you have?
There is no such scripture as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.
Have they gone that evil in translating the scriptures?
Its not your fault Kathi, but you have to be very careful what bible you are reading. This world has gone so bad.greetings.
wakeup.
Hi wakeup,
Do you know what NASB means? Also, do you know how to check the Greek manuscript to see if the words that are translated are actually in the oldest Greek text?Please answer those two questions, thanks.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2012,18:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2012,17:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,19:05) Kathi, is there any indication that the “God” has changed at all? In other words, does “HE” in verse 2 still refer to the same “God” from verse 1?
Mike,The God in verse 1 is the 'He' in verse 2.
We are now 4 for 4! Praise Jah!1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Kathi, is there any indication from this scripture that the Son through whom the God of verse 1 AND verse 2 spoke is the God who did the speaking?
Quote So now, I ask you a question Mike, Is the God in verse 1 one of the two Gods in verse 9 of Heb 1 and who is the 'You?'
There is only one who is called “God” in all of Hebrews 1. The “You” is Jesus. And God, his God, set Jesus above his companions.Kathi, I don't deny that Jesus is a god. Just like I don't deny that Satan is a god. But neither of them are God Almighty. Instead, they are both creations of that One.
Please just stick to the questions. (I don't mind if you ask one of your own as we go, though.)
Mike,
you asked:Quote Kathi, is there any indication from this scripture that the Son through whom the God of verse 1 AND verse 2 spoke is the God who did the speaking? No. simple.
I am 4 for 4, and now 5 for 5, you are 0 for 1.
Hebrews 1 calls Jesus 'God' twice and Jehovah once and son 4x. He is never called an angel or a creature, btw. You admit elsewhere that He is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN theos and you believe that begotten means created so therefore satan could not be a created god also if Jesus is the ONLY one. So if begotten means created, Mike, as you are trying to force down our throats, then there goes your satan was a created god theory out the window.
Begotten does not mean created though in the case of the Son, it means born so you can still have some play with your idea that satan was created as a god, although I disagree. He was created as an angel and made himself out to be a god and has fooled many people into worshiping him. The true God has allowed him to play his game for a time but he will be eternally destroyed.
Kathi
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2012,16:50) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,12:54)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine.
Hi Wake-up,Why not?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Wake-up?Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,18:30) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 25 2012,17:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2012,09:52) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Hi Kathi.What bible translation do you have?
There is no such scripture as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.
Have they gone that evil in translating the scriptures?
Its not your fault Kathi, but you have to be very careful what bible you are reading. This world has gone so bad.greetings.
wakeup.
wakeupKathi's bible is CALLED;
KATHY'S TRANSLATION, VERSION 1
EDITED BY KATHY,
COMMENTED BY “KATHY”
SOLD BY KATHY AT YOUR OWN RISKS
UNDERSTOOD BY KATHY
Pierre
Pierre,
We can all tell that you should not be given your opinion about translations or editing. You mention my name on your post 5 times and spell it two different ways and 4 times you spell it wrong. I say that you are not a man for details regarding the written word. Why don't you prove for us all that I do not use known translations when I quote a Bible verse or are you just here to degrade others. Are you feeling so insecure that degrading others makes you feel better about yourself? So, Pierre, prove you are not a slanderer by showing us where I use a translation that is not a known published translation, or you can apologize. Prove it or apologize or you may end up in the hot seat for making such inaccurate accusations.Wakeup,
I review many translations and also look at the Greek to determine which translation seems to be the most accurate. You can find every verse that I quote in a known translation.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2012,10:38) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,18:30) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 25 2012,17:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2012,09:52) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Hi Kathi.What bible translation do you have?
There is no such scripture as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.
Have they gone that evil in translating the scriptures?
Its not your fault Kathi, but you have to be very careful what bible you are reading. This world has gone so bad.greetings.
wakeup.
wakeupKathi's bible is CALLED;
KATHY'S TRANSLATION, VERSION 1
EDITED BY KATHY,
COMMENTED BY “KATHY”
SOLD BY KATHY AT YOUR OWN RISKS
UNDERSTOOD BY KATHY
Pierre
Pierre,
We can all tell that you should not be given your opinion about translations or editing. You mention my name on your post 5 times and spell it two different ways and 4 times you spell it wrong. I say that you are not a man for details regarding the written word. Why don't you prove for us all that I do not use known translations when I quote a Bible verse or are you just here to degrade others. Are you feeling so insecure that degrading others makes you feel better about yourself? So, Pierre, prove you are not a slanderer by showing us where I use a translation that is not a known published translation, or you can apologize. Prove it or apologize or you may end up in the hot seat for making such inaccurate accusations.Wakeup,
I review many translations and also look at the Greek to determine which translation seems to be the most accurate. You can find every verse that I quote in a known translation.Kathi
Kathisorry for this ,but my way to write Kathi,kathy, and kath,and ….
I did not mean it ,but you knew it was you did you ??
and i did not degrade you ,you do that to your self ,
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2012,21:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2012,18:36) Kathi, is there any indication from this scripture that the Son through whom the God of verse 1 AND verse 2 spoke is the God who did the speaking?
No.
Very good. So, before we move on, we both agree that – according to Hebrews 1 – only ONE God spoke to us throughout scripture – in the past through prophets of old, and in these last days, through His Son the prophet, right?In other words, there is no indication that TWO different Gods spoke to us at various times, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 27 2011,15:05) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 24 2011,02:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
Hi Lightenup.Can you give me the scripture that says God empty himself please.Interesting to know.
thank you.wakeup.
I can show you where the begotten God emptied Himself:Phil 2:5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
There ya go,
God bless,
Kathi
Lightenup.Can you show the scriptures that says:
God emptied himself; and the begotten God emptied himself?wakeup.
Wakeup,
I showed you that Christ Jesus emptied Himself…you just quoted the post that had the verse in it. I also quoted you the verse that tells us that Jesus is the only begotten God already and indicated what translation it was from. You denied that it was written. Then you didn't answer my questions. Please go back and find those posts and see the verses, then answer my questions, thanks. Also, God the Father did not need to empty Himself, only the begotten God needed to do that in order to become flesh.
Looking forward to your answers to my questions,
KathiQuote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2012,15:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2012,10:38) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,18:30) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 25 2012,17:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2012,09:52) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Hi Kathi.What bible translation do you have?
There is no such scripture as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.
Have they gone that evil in translating the scriptures?
Its not your fault Kathi, but you have to be very careful what bible you are reading. This world has gone so bad.greetings.
wakeup.
wakeupKathi's bible is CALLED;
KATHY'S TRANSLATION, VERSION 1
EDITED BY KATHY,
COMMENTED BY “KATHY”
SOLD BY KATHY AT YOUR OWN RISKS
UNDERSTOOD BY KATHY
Pierre
Pierre,
We can all tell that you should not be given your opinion about translations or editing. You mention my name on your post 5 times and spell it two different ways and 4 times you spell it wrong. I say that you are not a man for details regarding the written word. Why don't you prove for us all that I do not use known translations when I quote a Bible verse or are you just here to degrade others. Are you feeling so insecure that degrading others makes you feel better about yourself? So, Pierre, prove you are not a slanderer by showing us where I use a translation that is not a known published translation, or you can apologize. Prove it or apologize or you may end up in the hot seat for making such inaccurate accusations.Wakeup,
I review many translations and also look at the Greek to determine which translation seems to be the most accurate. You can find every verse that I quote in a known translation.Kathi
Kathisorry for this ,but my way to write Kathi,kathy, and kath,and ….
I did not mean it ,but you knew it was you did you ??
and i did not degrade you ,you do that to your self ,
Pierre
Pierre,
Would you please stop making derogatory remarks about me personally and just address the scriptural defense that I bring.I noticed that you did not show any proof of what you said in your rude post, which you can't, so you need to apologize for slander.
Btw, I wasn't so concerned about how you spell my name, I just thought it humorous that you misspell so many words even in the same post. You misspell the same word and then you make an arrogant comment about me using my own edited translation of the Bible. The arrogant, degrading comment is what I am concerned about. You ought to spend more time doing some editing on what YOU say and not spend that time degrading others.
Also, learn what it means to be an only begotten son if you claim to believe that truth.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2012,16:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2012,21:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2012,18:36) Kathi, is there any indication from this scripture that the Son through whom the God of verse 1 AND verse 2 spoke is the God who did the speaking?
No.
Very good. So, before we move on, we both agree that – according to Hebrews 1 – only ONE God spoke to us throughout scripture – in the past through prophets of old, and in these last days, through His Son the prophet, right?In other words, there is no indication that TWO different Gods spoke to us at various times, right?
Mike,you asked:
Quote In other words, there is no indication that TWO different Gods spoke to us at various times, right? Heb 1:1-2 Does not mention that ONLY God, the Father spoke to the forefathers it just mentioned that He did speak to the forefathers. In this context it doesn't speak about God the Son speaking to the forefathers through the prophets but it doesn't say that He didn't either. It seems that the point that was to be made is the affirming that God the Father speaks through the Son and that same Son made the universe.
Please answer these questions to you Mike, do you think that it is possible that the Angel of the Lord that spoke to man in the OT could be the only begotten theos? If so, then that would mean that TWO different theos spoke to the forefathers at various times unless you think they are the same person.[/B]
Kathi
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2012,16:50) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,12:54)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine.
Hi Wake-up,Why not?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You tell me .Kathi,
My question had to do with “any indication from Hebrews 1”. Would you answer the question DIRECTLY?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2012,18:27) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2012,15:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2012,10:38) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,18:30) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 25 2012,17:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2012,09:52) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
The 'begotten God' came in the flesh and the flesh died. How that worked is an amazing mystery, one that never happened before. We have a hint about a body changing form mortal to immortal which will happen to believers but we have no example to show a person going from immortal and taking on a body of flesh except in the only Begotten God.Now, I don't think that you have come to the acceptance of Jesus being the 'only begotten God.' Would that be correct. Perhaps we need to start there.
John 1:18 NASB© 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
So, please answer that bolded question, thanks.
Kathi
Hi Kathi.What bible translation do you have?
There is no such scripture as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD.
Have they gone that evil in translating the scriptures?
Its not your fault Kathi, but you have to be very careful what bible you are reading. This world has gone so bad.greetings.
wakeup.
wakeupKathi's bible is CALLED;
KATHY'S TRANSLATION, VERSION 1
EDITED BY KATHY,
COMMENTED BY “KATHY”
SOLD BY KATHY AT YOUR OWN RISKS
UNDERSTOOD BY KATHY
Pierre
Pierre,
We can all tell that you should not be given your opinion about translations or editing. You mention my name on your post 5 times and spell it two different ways and 4 times you spell it wrong. I say that you are not a man for details regarding the written word. Why don't you prove for us all that I do not use known translations when I quote a Bible verse or are you just here to degrade others. Are you feeling so insecure that degrading others makes you feel better about yourself? So, Pierre, prove you are not a slanderer by showing us where I use a translation that is not a known published translation, or you can apologize. Prove it or apologize or you may end up in the hot seat for making such inaccurate accusations.Wakeup,
I review many translations and also look at the Greek to determine which translation seems to be the most accurate. You can find every verse that I quote in a known translation.Kathi
Kathisorry for this ,but my way to write Kathi,kathy, and kath,and ….
I did not mean it ,but you knew it was you did you ??
and i did not degrade you ,you do that to your self ,
Pierre
Pierre,
Would you please stop making derogatory remarks about me personally and just address the scriptural defense that I bring.I noticed that you did not show any proof of what you said in your rude post, which you can't, so you need to apologize for slander.
Btw, I wasn't so concerned about how you spell my name, I just thought it humorous that you misspell so many words even in the same post. You misspell the same word and then you make an arrogant comment about me using my own edited translation of the Bible. The arrogant, degrading comment is what I am concerned about. You ought to spend more time doing some editing on what YOU say and not spend that time degrading others.
Also, learn what it means to be an only begotten son if you claim to believe that truth.
Kathi
Kathythis is one ;look how many scriptures you are showing ;and what you believe is IMO
Quote Lightenup Group: Regular Members
Posts: 6166
Joined: Feb. 2008
Posted: Jan. 04 2012,13:10
Marti,
I know that you see those verses and think that Jesus can't be God also. The reason that Jesus stresses that He is from God, the same God of the people of Israel, is to help them realize that He was not sent from a foreign god but has the full support of their God behind Him and that He is there because of their God, and that He, being the only begotten Son, came out of their God not a foreign god. I believe that is His emphasis, not that He is not deity also. The Israelites' God is the one who sent Him and who He is one with, not some other nation's god…that is the message and that is His emphasis. If the people really trust that He came out of their God as the only begotten Son of their God…the natural conclusion for them should be that He is also like His Father in nature and deity. He is called the begotten God in John 1:18, Marty. You don't seem to want to accept that. Here are a couple of verses for you to show that it was important for the people to know that HE came OUT OF their God and that He is thus the begotten God.John 17:8 For I have given to them the words which you gave me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Marty, the fact that He came out from God and is called the only begotten God is scriptural and something that His disciples surely knew and believed. He is the only Son of God and any other sons of God were created and did not come 'out of' God but were created by will 'out of nothing' and not by the very substance of deity as the only true son would be. Jesus is the Son of God, not by name only or by adoption, or by creation…but because He is the exact representation of His Father's nature and came out of His Father and is in relationship with His Father as a Son to His Father…the ONLY Son to His Father in that way. He will always be the Son to His Father and always be in submission to His Father, not because He isn't also God for us but because He is the perfect deity Son, one with the Father in every way possible without being the Father Himself. If He would make Himself out to be equal to the Father as if He were also in the position that His Father was and not in the position of Son, then He would cease from being perfect. Perfect beings know the truth and perfect beings are deity. Two perfect beings who abide in truth would never be in conflict with each other or one or both would cease from being perfect. No one can be greater than perfect. The Father was not the perfect Son…He was/is the perfect Father and He never was a Son. The Son was not the perfect Father to Himself but He is a perfect Father to us (He gave us eternal life) along with His perfect Father. Both in a sense are perfect Fathers to all believers but both are not equally the Father since one was the begetter and one was begotten.
Without knowing and understanding the truth of the 'begotten God' one cannot grasp the deity of the Son, imo. You must believe that He 'came out of the Father' before creation. Anything else that exists, aside from the Holy Spirit, did not 'come out of' the Father. The Holy Spirit was not begotten from the Father and is not an offspring of God, but the Holy Spirit proceeded forth from within the Father not as an offspring but as the Spirit within Him. As I understand it.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Wakeup @ Jan. 26 2012,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2012,16:50) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,12:54)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine.
Hi Wake-up,Why not?
God bless
Ed J
You tell me .
Hi Wake-up,It is YOUR point. …so tell us why?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPierre,
Do you see any verses quoted there that are not in known translations? If you find anything in my explanations that are contrary to scripture you have always been welcome to challenge them. I will then give you more verses to support that and you will see that those verses are also found in known translations.So, what you call 'proof' that I have written my own translation of the Bible, is just your way of saying that you don't agree with my understanding? If so, then challenge my understanding without making derogatory and untrue comments because that would be lying and slander.
Also, get to know what a true son is so that you can understand the scriptures and be in unity with those who also know what a true son is. We are to believe what God tells us when He says that Christ is His beloved Son. You deny this truth by saying that the Son is not one by nature but by creation.
Kathi
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