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Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,23:19) Who spoke to the 'us' in Heb 1? The prophets.
In the past God spoke to our forefathers……..Again, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE, who spoke?
NOW you are speaking SCRIPTURALLY, Kathi – instead of according to how you WANT it to be. That is a start.
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
In verse 1 (ONLY), through whom did the ONE who spoke speak? (Again, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,18:10) Hi Marty,
you asked:Quote
When was “he” or “when did he become” God the Son?He always was God, the Son.
Quote
And when you say “God the Son” became a man, was he “God the Son” as a man?Yes, of course, one cannot empty themselves of their inherent nature nor deny their past. Though, He was able to empty Himself of whatever it was to become flesh and take on the form of a man.
Good questions!
God bless,
Kathi
Hi Kathi:If “he” was always “God the Son”, when did he become the “begotten God”?
And if he was always “God the Son”, and the Father is God, then are there are two Gods?
And if he was “God the Son” as a man, then “God the Son” was tempted every way that we are “yet without sin”?
And if he was “God the Son” as a man, then God the Son died on the cross?
Love in Christ,
MartyAnd Kathi:
If he was “God the Son”, and was already perfect as God is perfect, then how do you explain the following scripture?
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 22 2012,18:28) And Kathi: If he was “God the Son”, and was already perfect as God is perfect, then how do you explain the following scripture?
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
Look at this verse:
John 8:29
“And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”He ALWAYS did the things that were pleasing to the Father. That shows perfection.
In the verses that you mentioned…His character that always pleased the Father was put to the greatest test when He suffered. When He continued to do what was pleasing to the Father even when suffering, then that was ultimate evidence to demonstrate His perfect character.
It is easy to please the Father when He is asking you to do something that feels good. When asked to do something that brings suffering, it is a lot harder to choose to please the Father. But, Christ was obedient even to suffering.
The verses are not making a statement that He was not perfect beforehand but telling us that He chose to go through the suffering and obey His Father, even though it caused Him to suffer a great deal, He especially proved His perfect character by this and He became the author of eternal salvation.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,13:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) In Hebrews 1:1, through whom did the ONE who spoke speak?
Through the prophets, Mike.
You're two for two, Kathi.How many of those prophets WERE the God who did the speaking through them?
Hi Kathi:
You say:
Quote He ALWAYS did the things that were pleasing to the Father. That shows perfection. No, it does not show perfection. It shows that he was obeying the Father. He was perfected through his obedience even unto death on the cross. He had to finish this in order to be perfected. And Kathi, it is “the spirit of holiness which confirms that he is the Son of God”,:
Quote Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 22 2012,18:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,18:10) Hi Marty,
you asked:Quote
When was “he” or “when did he become” God the Son?He always was God, the Son.
Quote
And when you say “God the Son” became a man, was he “God the Son” as a man?Yes, of course, one cannot empty themselves of their inherent nature nor deny their past. Though, He was able to empty Himself of whatever it was to become flesh and take on the form of a man.
Good questions!
God bless,
Kathi
Hi Kathi:If “he” was always “God the Son”, when did he become the “begotten God”?
And if he was always “God the Son”, and the Father is God, then are there are two Gods?
And if he was “God the Son” as a man, then “God the Son” was tempted every way that we are “yet without sin”?
And if he was “God the Son” as a man, then God the Son died on the cross?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,you asked:
Quote If “he” was always “God the Son”, when did he become the “begotten God”? When He was brought out from within the Father as an offspring. I think that it was when God said, “Let there be Light.”
Quote And if he was always “God the Son”, and the Father is God, then are there are two Gods? Well, in one sense they are two because the begotten God is not the Father who is God. In another sense they are one as God to us because of their common nature and complete harmony within their unity.
Quote And if he was “God the Son” as a man, then “God the Son” was tempted every way that we are “yet without sin”? Actually it was God the Son as the man that was tempted. That is why God the Son became man…to become like us, to be tempted, to overcome temptation…suffer and die. Those things He could not have done if He had not become flesh.
Quote And if he was “God the Son” as a man, then God the Son died on the cross? The flesh died, the spirit went on to the Father. The spirit was not destroyed. That is how I understand it Marty.
ttyl,
KathiMarty,
In polytheism there is no perfect harmony in unity…there is conflict between the gods.The Father and the Son are in perfect harmony in unity and there is no conflict between them. They are as one God authority to us. The Son always pleases the Father, the Son always does what He sees the Father doing. There is never ever a conflict.
That is one difference between polytheism and monotheism. Several times in the NT, Jesus is referred to as God, Marty. The Father and He are ONE.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,20:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,13:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) In Hebrews 1:1, through whom did the ONE who spoke speak?
Through the prophets, Mike.
You're two for two, Kathi.How many of those prophets WERE the God who did the speaking through them?
Mike,
The prophets in the OT were not God. What is your point? Jesus in His pre-existent state did not take on the role of a prophet. In His human state, He performed the role of a prophet to the people in that He spoke the things of God but He was an only begotten Son when He performed that role. Being the Only begotten Son of God was His identity which makes Him equal to God in nature.Don't be playing these 'twist the scripture' games, Mike. I have read enough on here to know that others get the same game from you. Learn what it means to truly be the 'only begotten Son of God' if you claim to believe that is what He is. It doesn't mean the only created son of God, nor does it mean the first created son of God.
Kathi
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 22 2012,20:20) Hi Kathi: You say:
Quote He ALWAYS did the things that were pleasing to the Father. That shows perfection. No, it does not show perfection. It shows that he was obeying the Father. He was perfected through his obedience even unto death on the cross. He had to finish this in order to be perfected. And Kathi, it is “the spirit of holiness which confirms that he is the Son of God”,:
Quote Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Show me where He is said to be less than perfect. To be the proper sacrifice for sins, He needed to be perfect before He was offered up as the sacrifice. See the OT teaching about the animal that was to be sacrificed:Lev 4:28
Young's Literal Translation
or his sin which he hath sinned hath been made known unto him, then he hath brought in his offering, a kid of the goats, a perfect one, a female, for his sin which he hath sinned,The passage in Hebrews that you refer to is in the context about being made the perfect 'High Priest.' Jesus is perfect in every role that He takes on and perfect in His inherent nature as God. Jesus was made to be the perfect High Priest by His sufferings, a role, btw, that He did not have until He had completed the course of suffering as the Messiah. He was not made to be the perfect Son of God, He always was that.
The fact that He was the perfect offering and thus made to be the perfect High Priest allows His followers to be made perfect because of His work, not because of their own.
Heb 10:11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
The Spirit of Holiness confirms that He is the Son of God and so did the angels at His birth, and the angel that spoke to Mary, and most importantly, so did His Father from heaven…more than once.
Luke 9:35
and a voice came out of the cloud saying, 'This is My Son — the Beloved; hear ye him;'Matt 3:16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
2 Pet 1:16For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 18and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
Marty, the Heavenly Father affirmed Jesus as His Son before He suffered and died. Jesus was the Son when He was sent to dwell in the flesh, and He was the Son when He laid the foundation of the world and spread out the heavens with His hands. He was begotten before creation.
God bless,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:25) Marty,
In polytheism there is no perfect harmony in unity…there is conflict between the gods.
Where did that inaccurate statement come from?Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,20:19) How many of those prophets WERE the God who did the speaking through them?
Mike,
The prophets in the OT were not God.
That's three for three, Kathi.
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days HE has spoken to us by his Son…….
Kathi, is there any indication that the “God” has changed at all? In other words, does “HE” in verse 2 still refer to the same “God” from verse 1?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:43) Jesus in His pre-existent state did not take on the role of a prophet. In His human state, He performed the role of a prophet to the people
Read Rev 1:1, Kathi. Even now that Jesus has been exalted higher than his pre-flesh state, he is STILL a prophet of his God.Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:43) Don't be playing these 'twist the scripture' games, Mike. I have read enough on here to know that others get the same game from you.
And it is when they're in exactly this kind of situation that they start claiming those things about me – just like you did! They do it when I've got them cornered with actual scriptures that don't line up with their doctrine. (When they realize that they're cornered, out come the personal accusations against the way I'm doing things – because that's way easier than dealing with the fact that I've just shown their doctrine to be flawed.)Anyway Kathi, we are on a good roll here. Please only address the bolded question I've asked above. (It is the only part of your next post I will respond to anyway.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup,
Welcome to HN!
You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God. (The two are in unity as ONE God through their Holy Spirit.) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…the begotten God became a man so that He COULD die for mankind. It really is a marvelous story if you understand it. To many people this is too hard to accept…the idea that God could die or would even empty Himself of whatever He needed to in order to lower Himself and become a fleshly servant…a helpless infant. You miss the whole point of the incarnation to not believe that God, the begotten God (who was begotten before the ages) actually did lower Himself into flesh…I know that is amazing and too amazing for some to accept. By love the Father sent the Son, who is the begotten God, to humble Himself to lowly flesh so that He COULD relate to man AND also DIE for man. Praise to the Father and to the Son and their Holy Spirit!
No hard feelings…it is all for good
Kathi
HI KATHI.First of all there is no such in scripture that says GOD EMPTIED HIMSELF. This is a word imported from somewhere.
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine. It is not the same as the suffering of a man,because he is also God.
No, Jesus was born of a woman,and is a man,not like some greek God, halve man and half God.
Beside the explanation you gave; The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.He is just like his bretheren,only he is a pure sacrifice, that is accepted by God.
No man knows the father but the son, and no man knows the son but the father; and he whom the son will reveal him.
This is the reason this post has been going on and on.No heart feelings.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,19:54) The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.
Why is it that some people just can't accept that truth? GOD so loved the world that………….
A. He came and died for us?
B. He SENT His SON to die for us?Which one do the scriptures actually teach?
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,19:54) He is just like his bretheren
That's why we have the chance to become BROTHERS to Jesus, and SONS to his God – just like HE is a SON to his God.Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,12:54)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine.
Hi Wake-up,Why not?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,21:18) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,19:54) The fact is that they teach that GOD DIED FOR OUR SINS.
And this is not true. His only begotten son died.
Why is it that some people just can't accept that truth? GOD so loved the world that………….
A. He came and died for us?
B. He SENT His SON to die for us?Which one do the scriptures actually teach?
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2012,19:54) He is just like his bretheren
That's why we have the chance to become BROTHERS to Jesus, and SONS to his God – just like HE is a SON to his God.
Mike,
The begotten theos died for our sins, do you agree? If so, according to what you have said in the past, then you believe that THE begotten god died for our sins, right. So what you disagree with is that the theos that died for our sins is not one whom you worship nor bow down to because that would make Him God instead of god. That, however, would mean that He is not your god at all since you don't bow down to Him in a religious manner. It would just make Him some sort of important angel and not a god.Kathi
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