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Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,20:20) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2012,18:00) kathi sorry to for not have seen clearly what you add written ,but it does not change the fact that Christ is the first of Gods creation ,but I do understand that you cannot see it or understand it or wanted to understand it ,
so we will see if our teachings will pass the test of God through his judgement , and yes ,your understanding does supersede the scriptures ,
because Christ is a creation of his God ; or show me the scriptures that he is not ,
Pierre
Pierre,
There is no 'fact' that Christ was the first of God's creation. You have yet to show me any scriptures that say this. Your repeating this over and over does not make it so Pierre.Kathi
kathiThis discussion is a duplicate so we keep on it in the other topic
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 15 2012,11:49) You still haven't understood that trinitarians or myself are speaking of more than one person,
Oh I understand WHAT you claim alright. I just see no scriptural evidence to support what you claim.Anywhere outside of Bizzaro World, “more than one person” also means “more than one BEING”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 15 2012,11:49) If one perfect being begats another perfect being……
And you just proved my point.
The only problem is that Trinitarians DON'T think God and His Son are TWO different BEINGS. You do, but you think we have TWO Almighty Gods.
You are both wrong. We have but ONE God, the Father. Jesus is not “part of God”, or “a person in the multiplicity of God” – instead he is the SON OF God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 15 2012,12:15) In the passage that you posted, Heb 1:1-2 is also proof that there were more than one involved in creation.
“Involved in creation” isn't the same as saying “CREATED” or “CO-CREATOR”.Heck, I was “involved in creation”, what with being a part of it and all.
Let's not add to the scriptures, Kathi. Scripture says God alone created, and He did that THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ.
In Hebrews 1:1-2, WHO did the creating? And who were the things created THROUGH?
(You should be giving TWO answers here, only ONE of which will name the One said to have done the creating.)
Mike,
Define 'beings' for me.Also, Mike there were two who were actively involved in creation. The Father and the Son together with their Holy Spirit.
I know you have a hard time admitting that Jesus was actively involved in creation because it was made through Him. The verses that credit the Son as making all things use the active voice. He did it! Both were involved making creation. Hebrews 1 1-2 tells us who both of them were…the Father and the Son. The Son most definitely had an ACTIVE role. They were alone while they did it…scripture tells us this.
All things are from the Father and made by the Son=two persons alone accomplished creation together with their Holy Spirit and they did it in seven days. No one else was involved back then, not even you Mike, sorry to burst your bubble
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,17:38) Hebrews 1 1-2 tells us who both of them were…the Father and the Son.
Then just answer my questions at the bottom of my previous post.Mike,
Heb 1:1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.The creation belongs to the Son…the Son is the heir of all things and the world was actively made by/through the Son who was given the task by His Father. This establishes that there were two actively involved in creating the world and not just one. Much of the NT establishes that there were two and not just one.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,20:04) ……..the world was actively made by/through the Son who was given the task by His Father. This establishes that there were two actively involved in creating the world and not just one. Much of the NT establishes that there were two and not just one.
In the past God spoke to our forefathers by the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Kathi, according to this scripture:
1. WHO did the speaking?
2. THROUGH WHOM did this One speak in the past?
3. THROUGH WHOM did this One speak in these last days?
4. WHO is the “HE” that I made real big?
5. WHO is the one THROUGH WHOM “HE” made the universe?Kathi, the only question that is important to me is the last one. The others are there so you can think about the difference between the one do DOES something, and the ones THROUGH WHOM he does that thing.
Obviously, if God spoke THROUGH prophets, then those prophets can't be confused with the God who spoke THROUGH them. They are NOT the ones who originated the thoughts or the words, but merely the ones THROUGH WHOM those thoughts and words were conveyed to mankind.
So if God said, “I will destroy Tyre”, we can not say that the prophet had any part whatsoever with that prophesy, except for being the vessel THROUGH WHICH that prophesy came FROM God to us.
Likewise, to say the universe was created THROUGH Jesus is not to say that Jesus had anything to do with the creation, except for being the vessel THROUGH WHICH the creation came FROM God.
Pay close attention to the big word “HE”, Kathi. That One ALONE is the only One credited with creating the universe in Hebrews 1:2. Do you agree?
And the rest of the entire Bible bears out the ONE CREATOR story – not your TWO CREATORS story.
God ALONE created. He chose to do that THROUGH His Servant, Jesus Christ.
That is what the scriptures clearly, over and over, teach. And that is what I will continue to believe. You, on the other hand, are free to twist whatever scriptures you want until they say what you want them to say.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,20:05) Mike,
Please define 'beings' for me.Kathi
In this context, an INDIVIDUAL entity, complete unto himself.Jesus is ONE of these. His and our God is ANOTHER one.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 22 2011,03:44) Who of you believe that God died on the cross?
then your God is mortal,he can be killed by men.
Why would we worship a mortal God like the pagans do,for their God is mortal.Those that believe that The God they worship died,dont realise,and dont know their God.
Do you know that everything is framed by the word of God?
The univers and all,Do you realise what will happen if God died? It will be keos in the universe and here on earth.
NO,GOD did not die,but his son died, the image of the father.
The son of man, the son of david,the son of God,the morning star.The doctrine of trinity has caused a lot of damage,many souls has been lost never finding the truth.Pray that Jesus will open the prison doors and set you free.No heart feelings please,its all for good.
wakeup.
God is eternal.God did not die on the cross.
God's human son, Jesus Christ, died on the cross.
barley
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2012,19:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,20:05) Mike,
Please define 'beings' for me.Kathi
In this context, an INDIVIDUAL entity, complete unto himself.Jesus is ONE of these. His and our God is ANOTHER one.
Mike,
Based on your 'definition' then this comment of yours is an incorrect understanding of what trinitarians believe:Quote The only problem is that Trinitarians DON'T think God and His Son are TWO different BEINGS. You do, but you think we have TWO Almighty Gods. You are both wrong. We have but ONE God, the Father. Jesus is not “part of God”, or “a person in the multiplicity of God” – instead he is the SON OF God.
With your definition, they believe that the Father and the Son are two separate beings with the same nature. In other words, they believe “three beings, one nature.” This nature is perfect and supreme. Three beings, one perfect and supreme nature is common to all of them which naturally unites them and they act as one God to us in complete harmony. If they were not one and act as one in complete harmony, they would not be perfect. Perfect nature insists on being supreme in every possible way and perfectly united one to the other, impossible to be out of fellowship and impossible to be less than another. Perfect would not be perfect if it was lacking in anyway.
According to my understanding which I label as 'early trinity,' I believe that the Perfect Father begat another perfect being, His only offspring, before the ages, each owning their own Spirit and will. Their Spirits are united as one Spirit and their wills are in complete harmony. Both are supreme in nature and there is no other higher Father and no other higher Son. Both are almighty, one as the Almighty Father and the other as the Almighty Son. They act as one God to us while each being God by nature in their own person.
Kathi
Kathi,
I don't know where you got lost on the Trinitarians' belief in ONE BEING of God, in THREE persons.
They believe God is ONE BEING. You believe we have TWO BEINGS, who are EACH “God Almighty”.
Nor do I know why specifying this is necessary in the first place.
You should be more interested in the fact that Jesus was MADE PERFECT through suffering, and therefore couldn't have already been perfect from the time his God and our God created him.
God doesn't create “perfect robots”, Kathi. Each and every being God created has free will to either do right or do wrong. Jesus is no exception, or he wouldn't have been so highly exalted for doing right.
If Jesus COULDN'T POSSIBLY have done wrong, then what's the big deal that he did everything right? Why exalt a perfect being for being perfect?
I await your response as to WHO created the universe in Hebrews 1.
Quote (barley @ Jan. 18 2012,22:17) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 22 2011,03:44) Who of you believe that God died on the cross?
then your God is mortal,he can be killed by men.
Why would we worship a mortal God like the pagans do,for their God is mortal.Those that believe that The God they worship died,dont realise,and dont know their God.
Do you know that everything is framed by the word of God?
The univers and all,Do you realise what will happen if God died? It will be keos in the universe and here on earth.
NO,GOD did not die,but his son died, the image of the father.
The son of man, the son of david,the son of God,the morning star.The doctrine of trinity has caused a lot of damage,many souls has been lost never finding the truth.Pray that Jesus will open the prison doors and set you free.No heart feelings please,its all for good.
wakeup.
God is eternal.God did not die on the cross.
God's human son, Jesus Christ, died on the cross.
barley
barleyhow can a man be called “THE SON OF GOD ',now do not get me wrong it says in scriptures that we are gods ,
but this is not my question ,we talking about ONE single man ;that claims to come from God and going back from were he came ,and that ad glory higher than men before he came down ,so who else in the universe is claiming to be THE “SON OF GOD “
not a son but “THE SON' OF GOD “
??Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2012,18:00) Kathi, I don't know where you got lost on the Trinitarians' belief in ONE BEING of God, in THREE persons.
They believe God is ONE BEING. You believe we have TWO BEINGS, who are EACH “God Almighty”.
Nor do I know why specifying this is necessary in the first place.
You should be more interested in the fact that Jesus was MADE PERFECT through suffering, and therefore couldn't have already been perfect from the time his God and our God created him.
God doesn't create “perfect robots”, Kathi. Each and every being God created has free will to either do right or do wrong. Jesus is no exception, or he wouldn't have been so highly exalted for doing right.
If Jesus COULDN'T POSSIBLY have done wrong, then what's the big deal that he did everything right? Why exalt a perfect being for being perfect?
I await your response as to WHO created the universe in Hebrews 1.
Mike,
You said:Quote I don't know where you got lost on the Trinitarians' belief in ONE BEING of God, in THREE persons. They believe God is ONE BEING.
Well, let me enlighten you with some quotes that say the three are one in nature/essence/being…'being' in a different sense than you defined it. This should help you to see how they are not saying the Son is His own Father, etc.
Quote The Trinity: Three Persons in One Nature
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/feature….011.aspQuote The Trinity tells us that there are three Persons in one Divine Nature. The names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are names of persons. God can serve as either a name for the Father or a name for the Divine Nature.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/trinity.htmQuote In Trinitarianism, God is said to be three persons in one essence, nature, or being. These last three terms are often seen as synonymous, but it can be helpful to understand what each means independently. Theological explanations of the Trinity, especially as developed in the early church, included the use of certain Greek terms which are included below for reference.
EssenceThe word “essence” may be defined as the intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.[1] Essence describes what it is to be God. The three persons of the Godhead share the same essence, and God’s essence is immaterial. With this understanding, the doctrine of the Trinity continues to assert monotheism, an essential and easily found belief within Scripture.
See main page on essence ### Nature
The word “nature” may be defined as the essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing.[2] Sometimes “nature” is synonymous with “essence.” Ontologically, each of the three members of the Trinity possess the same essential nature.
See main page on nature ### Being
The word “being” may be defined as the state or quality of having existence.[3] The triune God of Scripture eternally exists and has eternal being. Again, along with a monotheistic understanding, there is one and only one being, that is, God.
See main page on being ### Person
The word “person” may be defined as the composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality.[4] Scripture presents separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the “essence” of the Godhead that unites them.
from: http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity
I found the last quote to be the most beneficial. I think the problem that you are having, Mike, is that you equate 'person' with 'being' from what I can tell. That is why 3 persons as 1 being (person) would seem impossible. I hope that last quote helps you know that is not what trinitarians believe.
I believe in two persons who each have a holy spirit and that holy spirit in each is united with the spirit of the other thus forming one spirit. I believe the two persons are equally natured with a perfect nature and that their existence is the same…an eternal existence, i.e. they have existed for all eternity as one within the other as the offspring who eventually is begotten before the ages. So, two persons as one God authority together with their Holy Spirit. What one does, the other does likewise (including creation
)John 5:19
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.You said:
Quote God doesn't create “perfect robots”, Kathi. Each and every being God created has free will to either do right or do wrong. Jesus is no exception, or he wouldn't have been so highly exalted for doing right. Very good Mike, and if Jesus ALWAYS did what was right, then He was perfect all along, there was never a time when He was imperfect. The more He suffered the more perfect He appeared because He always responded righteously. His perfection is because He always chooses to do what is right. Can you show me anytime when He choose to do what was wrong and thus show imperfection? If not, then He was always perfect…not as a robot but as one who always chooses rightly.
Quote I await your response as to WHO created the universe in Hebrews 1. Are you blind? You asked…I answered…both. Again, John 5:19
John 5:19
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.Please note that the Son can do what the Father does, both are equally capable of the God sized tasks. The perfection of the Son is what has Him looking to the Father and never being independent of His Father.
Kathi
Kathi,
I couldn't care less about the word games associated with trying to make sense of the senseless trinity doctrine, so I'll walk away from that one. You are wrong, and I know what you're trying to do. Since YOU have come to the odd belief that we have Almighty Gods, instead of an Almighty God, you are trying to have “proof in numbers” by linking your TWO God worship as the “same thing basically” that the Trinitarians believe.
(In the other thread, you just made a statement about how “many people can see what I cannot”. Really Kathi? How many people think we have two separate and individual Amighty Gods?
)Anyway, I assure you that the Trinitarians believe in ONE BEING of God, who is made up of three different persons. ONE ENTITY, three minds.
If I say “one human being”, then you know that I'm talking about an INDIVIDUAL PERSON. So save your word games for someone who doesn't know you quite as well as I do.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,00:45) Very good Mike, and if Jesus ALWAYS did what was right, then He was perfect all along,
Hmmmm……………. Who to believe, Paul or Kathi? Paul said Jesus was MADE perfect THROUGH (or BECAUSE OF) the suffering. How do you then make your own claim that he always was perfect? Kathi, you don't even care what the actual scriptures say, do you?Can you even IMAGINE a scripture speaking about how GOD was “made perfect”? Yet here we are, discussing the scripture that says Jesus was MADE perfect.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,00:45) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) I await your response as to WHO created the universe in Hebrews 1. Are you blind? You asked…I answered…both. Again, John 5:19
John 5:19
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.Please note that the Son can do what the Father does, both are equally capable of the God sized tasks.
Are you KIDDING ME?!? Jesus is saying that without his own God, he is HELPLESS. What part of that can't you grasp? He is saying that he IMITATES his Father's behavior, not that he is capable of doing anything the Father does.Nor does that answer my questions about Heb 1.
WHO spoke to us?
THROUGH WHICH PROPHETS OF GOD did that One speak?
Was Jesus ONE OF THE PROPHETS OF GOD through whom that One spoke?
WHO created the universe?
THROUGH WHICH PROPHET OF GOD did that One create the universe?
And, most importantly, HOW MANY are said to have created in Heb 1? And HOW MANY are said to have been created THROUGH?
Deal with the POINTS, Kathi.
Mike,
you speak out of two sides of your mouth right here:Quote
I couldn't care less about the word games associated with trying to make sense of the senseless trinity doctrine, so I'll walk away from that one. You are wrong, and I know what you're trying to do. Since YOU have come to the odd belief that we have Almighty Gods, instead of an Almighty God, you are trying to have “proof in numbers” by linking your TWO God worship as the “same thing basically” that the Trinitarians believe.(In the other thread, you just made a statement about how “many people can see what I cannot”. Really Kathi? How many people think we have two separate and individual Amighty Gods?
)Anyway, I assure you that the Trinitarians believe in ONE BEING of God, who is made up of three different persons. ONE ENTITY, three minds.
If I say “one human being”, then you know that I'm talking about an INDIVIDUAL PERSON. So save your word games for someone who doesn't know you quite as well as I do.
You don't want to look at the words as defined by trinitarians and call that word games yet you go on to tell me how the trinitarians use the word 'being' and 'person.'
Let me ask you Mike, did you notice that all three quotes that I quoted about what the trinitarians believe, they ALL said that all three persons are one nature? Did you see that. If you want to play 'no, no, no, I don't want to play read and understand' then realize that chances are you will not understand. Also, you know that I always tie the two who are God as ONE God and I explain it. You don't seem to see the natural result of two who are God natured, they would be one unity otherwise they would not be God natured with inherent deity nature.
Quote (In the other thread, you just made a statement about how “many people can see what I cannot”. Really Kathi? How many people think we have two separate and individual Amighty Gods? )Millions believes that the Father is God and the Son is God and that the two are one natured and are a unity with their Holy Spirit. You have to understand the words the trinitarians use Mike, but of course you don't want to understand the words they use because that would challenge your bitterness with them. I have read a lot of the early church father's writings so that I can understand what the three persons are one as. You ought to approach the subject with a heart for understanding and not a heart for tearing them down. You would be a lot further along in your grasp of the scriptures if you did, imo.
You and your son are of one nature since you are both human…see how that works? One thing about being human nature vs. deity nature is that human nature has chosen to do wrong and deity nature has chosen to do right-always which would be eternal unity…there was never a time when there was conflict between the two persons.
Quote Very good Mike, and if Jesus ALWAYS did what was right, then He was perfect all along, Did you miss this, it seems like you just glossed over this. I really do not see how you could NOT say that He always did what was right. What do you think He did wrong?
John 8:29 “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”
He ALWAYS does the things that are pleasing to His Father, Mike. He didn't just start to do that when He started suffering. He was always perfect. That verse says ALWAYS DOES the things that are PLEASING to Him.
you said this…unbelievable:
Quote Are you KIDDING ME?!? Jesus is saying that without his own God, he is HELPLESS. What part of that can't you grasp? He is saying that he IMITATES his Father's behavior, not that he is capable of doing anything the Father does. No Mike, that is not what He is saying. Jesus IS the power of God. The power of God is NOT HELPLESS. If He imitates the Father's behavior then that proves that He is capable of doing anything the Father does. It also proves that Jesus and the Father DO the same work…another proof of unity. So much of the scriptures in the NT show this unity as well as a perfect Father/Son relationship.
Man cannot do what they see the Father doing, He HAS to do supernatural things in and through them. Man is just a vessel. The Son on the other hand sees the Father's work and does the same work Himself. The Son is supernatural also. How can you say that someone that is called the power of God and the wisdom of God is helpless.
It is no wonder that you are so confused about who the Son of God is, Mike. Your perspective is that Jesus is weak. My perspective is that He is the power of God. Is it any wonder why we butt heads nearly all the time about who the Son is?? You say that He is the Son of God but your sure don't talk like you believe it when you describe Him. A literal Son of God would be supernatural like His Father. Jesus is the glory of God, not God's wimpy little kid. Jesus' ability to wait on His Father for direction is one of His greatest strengths. If only we could learn how to wait on the Father for direction all the time too!Quote Nor does that answer my questions about Heb 1. WHO spoke to us?
THROUGH WHICH PROPHETS OF GOD did that One speak?
Was Jesus ONE OF THE PROPHETS OF GOD through whom that One spoke?
WHO created the universe?
THROUGH WHICH PROPHET OF GOD did that One create the universe?
And, most importantly, HOW MANY are said to have created in Heb 1? And HOW MANY are said to have been created THROUGH?
Deal with the POINTS, Kathi.
Who spoke to the 'us' in Heb 1? The prophets. Who spoke to them? The Word of God, Jehovah, the Son. Whose word did Jehovah the Son give to the prophets? Jehovah the Father's, or Jehovah the Unity's and sometimes His own words as Jehovah, the Son.
Jesus was the Son as the Word of God through whom the unity and/or the members of the unity spoke. He was the spokesman for the unity called Jehovah.
Who created the universe? God the unity which includes the Father and the Son together with their Holy Spirit.
How many are said to have created in Heb 1? Two.
God did not create through a prophet.
How many are said to have been created through? Everyone in the whole world. That is a lot, isn't it? All things were made by the Son, so do you know how many 'all things' would be?
Deal with the answers, Mike
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,15:55) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 15 2012,21:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,13:16) Marty,
We can see the deity nature in Christ by the miraculous works that He does, His character and the words that He speaks which come to fulfillment and His resurrection. The disciples knew that Christ knew everything and had the power to do anything, i.e. walk on water, calm the sea simply by commanding it, healing the blind and ill, forgiving sins, casting out demons, predicting the future, upholding all things, raising the dead, multiplying the food, changing water into wine, claiming that He is with the disciples ALWAYS even after He ascends into the clouds, receiving worship, and accepting the address as someone's God-particularly Thomas', also by giving the disciples the command and ability to do works such as He did 'in His name,' making Himself out to be equal with God. And most importantly He claimed to be the Son of God and claimed to exist before His flesh existence and God the Father confirmed that He was His Son in the presence of the disciples. A few of the apostles also witnessed the transfiguration of His body. This list isn't complete but it should be sufficient to demonstrate the Son as the image of One with deity nature and having deity nature in Himself.John 16:30
“Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”That verse has the understanding that like begets like. One who knows all things must be God like the One He was from. God, the Father begat God, the Son.
Blessings,
Kathi
Hi Kathi:God's character is made manifest to humanity through the works that the Father did through him. That is how he can state: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.
Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
God is eternal and cannot die, and God cannot be tempted. Jesus the Son of the Living God and the son of man was tempted in every way and he did die, therefore, he is not God.
And he himself stated when he was ascending to his present position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church, that he was ascending to his God and our God.
There is only “one God” and Jesus was sent by Him to recocile us unto Himself. Jesus did not say that we should worship him as God, but said:
Quote Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,you said:
Quote
God's character is made manifest to humanity through the works that the Father did through him. That is how he can state: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.Agree. This shows unity with the Father and also a distinction that the Son is not the Father. The Father's work was also His work. One of Jesus' main teaching that He wanted His disciples to know was that God the Father was actually His Father and that He did indeed send Him and works through Him. This gave glory to the Father and credibility to the Son. Jesus wanted everyone to know of their unity.
Quote God is eternal and cannot die, and God cannot be tempted. Jesus the Son of the Living God and the son of man was tempted in every way and he did die, therefore, he is not God.
Well, your 'therefore' is not correct, imo. God is eternal and cannot die, that is true and that is why God, the Son became man so that He COULD have the flesh which COULD be tempted and die. In His pre-existent state, He could not die or be tempted. He had to become flesh in order to be tempted and die or His life on earth of complete obedience wouldn't have meaning. He had flesh, so He felt hungry and could be tempted by satan to turn the rock into bread, He felt thirsty, cold, hot, tired, physical pain, etc. and could be tempted by satan to bow down to him instead of facing the cross. In His pre-existent state, He had no need for food or drink for sustenance, or sleep, etc. He also could not be beat up, whipped, nailed to the cross et al. Thus, He had to become man so that all that could take place to fulfill scripture and to redeem us.
God the Son took on flesh because otherwise He could not die and therefore could not redeem us. This is a beautiful gospel and I am afraid that you are missing it, Marty.
You said:
Quote
And he himself stated when he was ascending to his present position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church, that he was ascending to his God and our God.Of course, His Father happens also to be God and as His Son, His PERFECT Son, He is always in subjection to His perfect Father who happens to also be God in nature like Himself. If His Father who He is subject to is God by nature like Himself, then His Father would be His God also and forever. That is consistent with God begetting God, the Son. That is also consistent with what the Father says to Him and calls Him which is recorded in Hebrews:
Heb 1:8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH
THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”Note that the Father calls Him God and Jehovah (LORD).
Thomas also calls Jesus 'my God' directly to Him.
This further coincides with the God beget God, the Son understanding that I have.
YOu said:
Quote There is only “one God” and Jesus was sent by Him to reconcile us unto Himself. Jesus did not say that we should worship him as God, but said: Of course we are to worship the Father and when you worship the Father in truth you will worship the Son who is in perfect unity with Him as our one deity authority. There is only one deity authority. Jehovah is the God of gods AND the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords. For us, we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. That is two who are the one unity called Jehovah.
Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. Jehovah happens to be made up of two through their Holy Spirit…one who is the God of gods and one who is the Lord of lords. Again, Jesus is the Lord of lords. Each member of the unity called Jehovah is also referred to as Jehovah…one is the Father and the other is the Son. Context helps determine who or what is being spoken about sometimes. Other times it is harder to tell.
Jesus was worshiped and never stopped anyone from doing so. In fact, He regarded it as a demonstration of one's faith and praised them for their faith at times. Jesus NEVER said that He would not be worshiped nor that He should not be worshiped. It wasn't His place to move people to worship Him, that is the act of the Holy Spirit of God or the Father who tells all the angels to worship the Son and will say:
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
When we worship the Father 'in truth' our knees will bow to Jesus also and that will be to the glory of God the Father.
Compare these passages:
Isaiah 45:22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.23“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.24“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.25“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”And this one:
Romans 14:7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”God bless and good night,
Kathi
Hi Kathi:When was “he” or “when did he become” God the Son?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Kathi:
And when you say “God the Son” became a man, was he “God the Son” as a man?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,23:19) He was always perfect
And Paul says he was MADE perfect. Kathi, I will go with scripture over you every time.Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,23:19) Millions believes that the Father is God and the Son is God and that the two are one natured and are a unity with their Holy Spirit.
Kathi, do YOU believe that there are TWO Gods Almighty, one of whom was sent to earth by the other? YES or NO?Because the Trinitarians DON'T believe this. They believe we have ONE God, PART OF WHOM manifested in the flesh as Jesus.
They do NOT believe there was ONE God Almighty in heaven while ANOTHER God Almighty was on earth. YOU DO!
So like I said, stop trying to play word games so you can include the millions of Trinitarians into your number.
Tell me how many people besides you believe that we had ONE God Almighty in heaven while our OTHER God Almighty was on earth?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,23:19) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Are you KIDDING ME?!? Jesus is saying that without his own God, he is HELPLESS. What part of that can't you grasp? He is saying that he IMITATES his Father's behavior, not that he is capable of doing anything the Father does. No Mike, that is not what He is saying. Jesus IS the power of God.
No Kathi. Jesus is the one who will rule IN the power and name of his own God – who is also OUR only God Almighty. He isn't the power or God, but has been given power BY God to rule.Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,23:19) Man cannot do what they see the Father doing, He HAS to do supernatural things in and through them. Man is just a vessel. The Son on the other hand sees the Father's work and does the same work Himself.
Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.WHO did the miracles Kathi? And THROUGH WHOM were the miracles done?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,23:19) Deal with the answers, Mike
Kathi, my “grandson” just showed up and wants me to find Giggle Bellies for him on YouTube. But don't worry, I will address these false, unscriptural answers ASAP.Hi Marty,
you asked:Quote
When was “he” or “when did he become” God the Son?He always was God, the Son.
Quote
And when you say “God the Son” became a man, was he “God the Son” as a man?Yes, of course, one cannot empty themselves of their inherent nature nor deny their past. Though, He was able to empty Himself of whatever it was to become flesh and take on the form of a man.
Good questions!
God bless,
Kathi
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