Did God die on the cross

[terraricca]

Marty

that is a good question I hope she answers you

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2012,18:14)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 11 2012,16:02) Hi Marty, I appreciate your time, really.  Something that I don't believe you understand is that…BECAUSE Jesus is the Son of God, that is why He is also God like His Father.  Together with their Holy Spirit, they are united as one God to us.  Perfect Father begat perfect Son.  Together they create, and save, and show wrath, and rule, etc.  They act as one.  Two perfect beings cannot be anything but in unity, otherwise one or both cease to be perfect.  A perfect Father CANNOT beget a less than perfect Son.  A perfect Son with the exact nature as His Father would not be less than God.  He is less than the Father by position ONLY.  Their nature is the same…i.e, they are EQUAL in nature but not equal in position.  Those with that 'inherent' nature would not be anything but God…the highest type of being. So, both are God by nature yet by position in their relationship they are not both Father.  One is the Father and one is the Son. Because both are perfect they are in unity.  If they were in disunity, one or both would not be perfect. They did not need to form this unity…it would be naturally formed just because they are both perfect with the nature of deity. This understanding has made scripture much easier to grasp and I'm sure that there is so much to learn building on the foundation that Jesus is the Son of God, the literal Son of God born before the ages.  A literal Son of God would also be God but not also Father. I don't think that you believe in the literal Son of the living God…you believe in a son who is a son unlike his Father.  The son that you believe in is a creation of God, not an offspring of God. God bless, Kathi Hi Kathi: How do we know that Jesus is “the express image of God's person? Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,
In Heb 1:3 we can know that:

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

God bless,
Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 14 2012,13:22)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Anyone who has ever existed, except for God Himself, is a creation of God. Another point of view:  Anyone who has ever existed, except God the Father and God the Son together with their Holy Spirit, is a creation of THEM.

Now if you could only find a scripture that speaks of our “Creators” (plural), you might have a point.  But not only is there no scripture that says the word “Creators”, there are many that distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our ONE Creator.  Here is but one of them:

Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

You can see from the above that GOD spoke to us THROUGH many prophets, the most recent of which was His Son, Jesus.

See Kathi?  Jesus is not God Himself, but one of the many prophets THROUGH WHOM God spoke.

Verse 2 teaches us that it was this same GOD who made the universe; and that Jesus was the one THROUGH WHOM He did this.

Do you see it?  ONE of the TWO people mentioned spoke to us and made the universe.  The OTHER of the TWO people mentioned is the one THROUGH WHOM GOD did these things.

I'll remind you of the words of your friend Tertullian:
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

And no, I don't want to read a bunch of unscriptural things Tertullian wrote, so don't bother.  You need only tell me whether or not there is truth in this ONE statement he made.

Kathi, I have five other scriptures on file that distinguish Jesus, not only as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things, but in distinguishing Jesus FROM that One, they leave Jesus no choice but to BE one of the “all things” created BY the One who did the creating.

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 14 2012,13:22)

The act of the begetting the offspring, who always was within the Father, according to my understanding, was announced as “Let there be Light.”   Jesus is………..Light from Light.

If the Father was the Light from which Jesus became light, then “Let there be light” seems like it would be not only the bringing forth of the Son, but of the Father as well – don't you think?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 14 2012,23:20)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2012,18:14) Kathi: How do we know that Jesus is “the express image of God's person? Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, In Heb 1:3 we can know that: King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; God bless, Kathi

A better question would be:

How does one who is the image OF another also BE that other?

My son is the spitting image (express image) of me.  Now imagine that I am the Omniscient Creator of all things.  I alone brought everything into being, including (obviously) my son (because we all know that sons don't exist UNTIL their fathers bring them into existence).

Does the fact that my son is the spitting image of me all of a sudden mean that HE is the one who brought all things into being?

Absolutely not.  It simply means that my son is very much LIKE me – the one who brought all things into being.

I could go on and on for days about how much me and my son were alike.  I could even tell you that I gave him all that was mine.  But never in a million years would you then think that my son WAS me.

It is only when it comes to Jesus that people throw their God-given common sense out the window and try to illogically imagine that the Son who is LIKE God actually IS the God he is LIKE.  

[Lightenup]

Mike,

you said:

Quote

How does one who is the image OF another also BE that other?

You still haven't understood that trinitarians or myself are speaking of more than one person, both who are God by nature, united as one also by nature, a perfect nature. If one perfect being begats another perfect being, naturally they would be the same nature and their perfection would insist on their unity, not as one person but as more than one person acting in perfect harmony with the other albeit, each taking their proper position. In this case, one as Father and head, the other as Son and submissive to that Father. Jesus' submission and service to His Father is proof that they are Father and Son and also that They are perfect, not that one is one kind of being and the other is another kind of being. They are both the same kind of being…they are God beings and both perfect and act as one God authority. Like begats like.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2012,10:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 14 2012,13:22) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Anyone who has ever existed, except for God Himself, is a creation of God. Another point of view:  Anyone who has ever existed, except God the Father and God the Son together with their Holy Spirit, is a creation of THEM. Now if you could only find a scripture that speaks of our “Creators” (plural), you might have a point.  But not only is there no scripture that says the word “Creators”, there are many that distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our ONE Creator.  Here is but one of them: Hebrews 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. You can see from the above that GOD spoke to us THROUGH many prophets, the most recent of which was His Son, Jesus. See Kathi?  Jesus is not God Himself, but one of the many prophets THROUGH WHOM God spoke. Verse 2 teaches us that it was this same GOD who made the universe; and that Jesus was the one THROUGH WHOM He did this. Do you see it?  ONE of the TWO people mentioned spoke to us and made the universe.  The OTHER of the TWO people mentioned is the one THROUGH WHOM GOD did these things. I'll remind you of the words of your friend Tertullian: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. And no, I don't want to read a bunch of unscriptural things Tertullian wrote, so don't bother.  You need only tell me whether or not there is truth in this ONE statement he made. Kathi, I have five other scriptures on file that distinguish Jesus, not only as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things, but in distinguishing Jesus FROM that One, they leave Jesus no choice but to BE one of the “all things” created BY the One who did the creating. Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 14 2012,13:22) The act of the begetting the offspring, who always was within the Father, according to my understanding, was announced as “Let there be Light.”   Jesus is………..Light from Light. If the Father was the Light from which Jesus became light, then “Let there be light” seems like it would be not only the bringing forth of the Son, but of the Father as well – don't you think?

Mike,

You said:

Quote

Now if you could only find a scripture that speaks of our “Creators” (plural), you might have a point. But not only is there no scripture that says the word “Creators”, there are many that distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our ONE Creator. Here is but one of them: Hebrews 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

I have shown you “Let US make man in OUR image” is proof that there were more than on involved in creation.

In the passage that you posted, Heb 1:1-2 is also proof that there were more than one involved in creation. 1 Cor 8:6 is another proof.

You quote Tertullian whom you are aware spoke as a trinitarian, btw, and what he wrote is evidence that he believed there were more than one person involved in creation. That is what his point was. You can see that if you read the rest of what he wrote.

I will quote you what Eusebius, your buddy, wrote about the Son' eternal existence and creation:

Quote

But these are all earthly images and touched with mortality, parts of this lower corrupt and earthly constitution, whereas the scope of the theology we are considering far transcends all illustrations, and is not connected with anything physical, but imagines with the acutest thought a Son Begotten, not at one time non-existent, and existent at another afterwards, but existent before eternal time, and pre-existent, and ever with the Father as His Son, and yet not Unbegotten, but (b) begotten from the Father Unbegotten, being the Only-begotten, the Word, and God of God, Who teaches that He was not cast forth from the being of the Father by separation, or scission, or division, but unspeakably and unthinkably to us brought into being from all time, nay rather before all times, by the Father's transcendent and inconceivable Will and Power. “For who shall describe his generation?” he says, and “As no one knoweth the Father save the Son, so no one knoweth the Son save the Father that begat Him.”

Quote

Such, then, was the Son, sole-begotten of His will, Master of fair crafts and Creator of all things, Whom the Highest God, God and Father of the Creator Himself first before all begat, setting in Him and through Him the creative proportions of things about to be, and casting in Him the seeds of © the constitution and the government of the Universe.

Both Tertullian and Eusebius believe in the eternal existence of the Son and that He was involved in creation with the Father. I agree with this.

from here: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_de_06_book4.htm

You also said:

Quote

Kathi, I have five other scriptures on file that distinguish Jesus, not only as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things, but in distinguishing Jesus FROM that One, they leave Jesus no choice but to BE one of the “all things” created BY the One who did the creating.

I am not debating that there was another, besides the Son, who was involved in creation. I do not agree with your biased conclusion that there was only one person involved in creation. There are several verses that speak of more than one person involved in creation. Jesus wasn't just a puppet in creation. He actually demonstrated the power of God and the wisdom of God in making all things. He in deed is the power of God and the wisdom of God because all beings
with God nature would be. They would also be united in perfect harmony otherwise one or both would cease from being perfect and we know that they are both the same, yesterday, today and forever. They changeth not That is GOOD NEWS…hallelujah!

you wrote:

Quote

[/quote] If the Father was the Light from which Jesus became light, then “Let there be light” seems like it would be not only the bringing forth of the Son, but of the Father as well – don't you think?

If the Father is the begetter and also Light, the begotten would be the Light from the Light, just as I said. I can't imagine why you would be puzzled by this. The Light of God existed from eternity. On day one the Light of God was brought out from Him as His Son who is also Light like His Father. This is not physical light, btw. That physical light was created, and created on day four. This is my understanding.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Kathi

Quote

If the Father is the begetter and also Light, the begotten would be the Light from the Light, just as I said. I can't imagine why you would be puzzled by this. The Light of God existed from eternity. On day one the Light of God was brought out from Him as His Son who is also Light like His Father. This is not physical light, btw. That physical light was created, and created on day four. This is my understanding.

all of this shows you do not have truth in you understanding;

the light that God created on the fourth day is the daylight and the luminary for the night ;no Christ their no son

now let see ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

THIS IS IN LINE WITH WHAT PAUL IS SAYING .

SO PAUL WOULD BE A LIAR WHEN HE SAYS THAT CHRIST IS THE '”FIRST “OF CREATION THE START OF GODS CREATION ,THE ONE THAT HOLDS ALL TOGETHER??

Quote

This is my understanding.

yes ,it is wrong your understanding does not SUPER SEEDS GODS WORD OR THE APOSTLES,

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
1. I never said that the Son was the light on day four, I was talking about the light of day one.  If you are going to correct me on what I write, please read what I write carefully.

2.  Col 1:15, you use the correct translation of 'over all creation.'  Jesus is also called “Lord of all.”  Neither one of those verses say that He was created but both indicate a position over all.

Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

3.  Paul never says that Christ is the 'first of creation” or 'the start of God's creation.' So you are making Paul out to be saying something he did not.  Judge not, lest you be judged by your own words, Pierre.

4. In regards to Prov. 8:22, to bring 'wisdom' forth does NOT mean that the 'wisdom' did not exist before He was brought forth.  I believe that the offspring, who had the wisdom of God, always existed within the Father before He was brought forth.  The Father always was a Father, the Son always was a Son, they changeth not.  Also, He was 'appointed' from eternity proves that He was not a passing thought but that He always had the purpose of being the Father's Son and agent even from eternity.  It was not something the Father decided to do after man sinned.

You said:

Quote

yes ,it is wrong your understanding does not SUPER SEEDS GODS WORD OR THE APOSTLES,

So, not only do you carelessly judge my understanding as wrong and think that I consider Paul a liar, but you do it with poor English.  That makes the teacher in me just cringe.

Fyi, when you write 'super seeds' I get a chuckle.  'Supersedes' is what you mean and no, my understanding does not 'supersede' the Word of God or the Apostles.  As you can see, you are the one changing the words around from what is  actually said in scripture.  

Kathi

[terraricca]

kathi

sorry to for not have seen clearly what you add written ,but it does not change the fact that Christ is the first of Gods creation ,but I do understand that you cannot see it or understand it or wanted to understand it ,

so we will see if our teachings will pass the test of God through his judgement , and yes ,your understanding does supersede the scriptures ,

because Christ is a creation of his God ; or show me the scriptures that he is not ,

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 15 2012,16:20)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 14 2012,18:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 11 2012,16:02) Hi Marty, I appreciate your time, really.  Something that I don't believe you understand is that…BECAUSE Jesus is the Son of God, that is why He is also God like His Father.  Together with their Holy Spirit, they are united as one God to us.  Perfect Father begat perfect Son.  Together they create, and save, and show wrath, and rule, etc.  They act as one.  Two perfect beings cannot be anything but in unity, otherwise one or both cease to be perfect.  A perfect Father CANNOT beget a less than perfect Son.  A perfect Son with the exact nature as His Father would not be less than God.  He is less than the Father by position ONLY.  Their nature is the same…i.e, they are EQUAL in nature but not equal in position.  Those with that 'inherent' nature would not be anything but God…the highest type of being. So, both are God by nature yet by position in their relationship they are not both Father.  One is the Father and one is the Son. Because both are perfect they are in unity.  If they were in disunity, one or both would not be perfect. They did not need to form this unity…it would be naturally formed just because they are both perfect with the nature of deity. This understanding has made scripture much easier to grasp and I'm sure that there is so much to learn building on the foundation that Jesus is the Son of God, the literal Son of God born before the ages.  A literal Son of God would also be God but not also Father. I don't think that you believe in the literal Son of the living God…you believe in a son who is a son unlike his Father.  The son that you believe in is a creation of God, not an offspring of God. God bless, Kathi Hi Kathi: How do we know that Jesus is “the express image of God's person? Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, In Heb 1:3 we can know that: King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; God bless, Kathi

Hi Kathi:

That was not my question.  I already stated that he was the express image of God's person.  That scripture states that he was “the express image of God's person”, and true, we believe the scripture, and so, we do know it by that scripture.

But in what way was “he the express image of God's person”.  He said “he who has seen me has seen the Father”.  What does he mean by that statement?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Marty,
We can see the deity nature in Christ by the miraculous works that He does, His character and the words that He speaks which come to fulfillment and His resurrection. The disciples knew that Christ knew everything and had the power to do anything, i.e. walk on water, calm the sea simply by commanding it, healing the blind and ill, forgiving sins, casting out demons, predicting the future, upholding all things, raising the dead, multiplying the food, changing water into wine, claiming that He is with the disciples ALWAYS even after He ascends into the clouds, receiving worship, and accepting the address as someone's God-particularly Thomas', also by giving the disciples the command and ability to do works such as He did 'in His name,' making Himself out to be equal with God. And most importantly He claimed to be the Son of God and claimed to exist before His flesh existence and God the Father confirmed that He was His Son in the presence of the disciples. A few of the apostles also witnessed the transfiguration of His body. This list isn't complete but it should be sufficient to demonstrate the Son as the image of One with deity nature and having deity nature in Himself.

John 16:30
“Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”

That verse has the understanding that like begets like. One who knows all things must be God like the One He was from. God, the Father begat God, the Son.

Blessings,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2012,18:00)

kathi sorry to for not have seen clearly what you add written ,but it does not change the fact that Christ is the first of Gods creation ,but I do understand that you cannot see it or understand it or wanted to understand it , so we will see if our teachings will pass the test of God through his judgement , and yes ,your understanding does supersede the scriptures , because Christ is a creation of his God ; or show me the scriptures that he is not , Pierre

Pierre,
There is no 'fact' that Christ was the first of God's creation. You have yet to show me any scriptures that say this. Your repeating this over and over does not make it so Pierre.

Kathi

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,13:16)

Marty, We can see the deity nature in Christ by the miraculous works that He does, His character and the words that He speaks which come to fulfillment and His resurrection.  The disciples knew that Christ knew everything and had the power to do anything, i.e. walk on water, calm the sea simply by commanding it, healing the blind and ill, forgiving sins, casting out demons, predicting the future, upholding all things, raising the dead, multiplying the food, changing water into wine, claiming that He is with the disciples ALWAYS even after He ascends into the clouds, receiving worship, and accepting the address as someone's God-particularly Thomas', also by giving the disciples the command and ability to do works such as He did 'in His name,' making Himself out to be equal with God.  And most importantly He claimed to be the Son of God and claimed to exist before His flesh existence and God the Father confirmed that He was His Son in the presence of the disciples.  A few of the apostles also witnessed the transfiguration of His body.  This list isn't complete but it should be sufficient to demonstrate the Son as the image of One with deity nature and having deity nature in Himself. John 16:30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”   That verse has the understanding that like begets like.  One who knows all things must be God like the One He was from.  God, the Father begat God, the Son. Blessings, Kathi

Hi Kathi:

God's character is made manifest to humanity through the works that the Father did through him. That is how he can state: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

Quote

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

God is eternal and cannot die, and God cannot be tempted. Jesus the Son of the Living God and the son of man was tempted in every way and he did die, therefore, he is not God.

And he himself stated when he was ascending to his present position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church, that he was ascending to his God and our God.

There is only “one God” and Jesus was sent by Him to recocile us unto Himself. Jesus did not say that we should worship him as God, but said:

Quote

Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[toby]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 11 2012,16:21)

…all others were not begotten sons    You were not begotten of God

Scripture says, (Literal Translation):

But as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become sons of God – to those believing in his name,

 who – not of blood, nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man, but – of God were begotten.

[Lightenup]

Toby,
The context of my statement was towards the original nature, not the born again status.

I hope that clears that up for you. Man was not begotten of God in their original begettal. See?

God bless,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 15 2012,21:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 16 2012,13:16) Marty, We can see the deity nature in Christ by the miraculous works that He does, His character and the words that He speaks which come to fulfillment and His resurrection.  The disciples knew that Christ knew everything and had the power to do anything, i.e. walk on water, calm the sea simply by commanding it, healing the blind and ill, forgiving sins, casting out demons, predicting the future, upholding all things, raising the dead, multiplying the food, changing water into wine, claiming that He is with the disciples ALWAYS even after He ascends into the clouds, receiving worship, and accepting the address as someone's God-particularly Thomas', also by giving the disciples the command and ability to do works such as He did 'in His name,' making Himself out to be equal with God.  And most importantly He claimed to be the Son of God and claimed to exist before His flesh existence and God the Father confirmed that He was His Son in the presence of the disciples.  A few of the apostles also witnessed the transfiguration of His body.  This list isn't complete but it should be sufficient to demonstrate the Son as the image of One with deity nature and having deity nature in Himself. John 16:30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”   That verse has the understanding that like begets like.  One who knows all things must be God like the One He was from.  God, the Father begat God, the Son. Blessings, Kathi Hi Kathi: God's character is made manifest to humanity through the works that the Father did through him.  That is how he can state: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. Quote Jhn 14:9   Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?   Jhn 14:10   Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.   God is eternal and cannot die, and God cannot be tempted.  Jesus the Son of the Living God and the son of man was tempted in every way and he did die, therefore, he is not God. And he himself stated when he was ascending to his present position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church, that he was ascending to his God and our God. There is only “one God” and Jesus was sent by Him to recocile us unto Himself.  Jesus did not say that we should worship him as God, but said: Quote Jhn 4:20   Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.   Jhn 4:21   Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.   Jhn 4:22   Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.   Jhn 4:23   But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.   Jhn 4:24   God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

you said:

Quote

God's character is made manifest to humanity through the works that the Father did through him.  That is how he can state: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

Agree.  This shows unity with the Father and also a distinction that the Son is not the Father.  The Father's work was also His work.  One of Jesus' main teaching that He wanted His disciples to know was that God the Father was actually His Father and that He did indeed send Him and works through Him.  This gave glory to the Father and credibility to the Son.  Jesus wanted everyone to know of their unity.

Quote

God is eternal and cannot die, and God cannot be tempted.  Jesus the Son of the Living God and the son of man was tempted in every way and he did die, therefore, he is not God.

Well, your 'therefore' is not correct, imo.  God is eternal and cannot die, that is true and that is why God, the Son became man so that He COULD have the flesh which COULD be tempted and die.  In His pre-existent state, He could not die or be tempted.  He had to become flesh in order to be tempted and die or His life on earth of complete obedience wouldn't have meaning.  He had flesh, so He felt hungry and could be tempted by satan to turn the rock into bread,  He felt thirsty, cold, hot, tired, physical pain, etc. and could be tempted by satan to bow down to him instead of facing the cross.  In His pre-existent state, He had no need for food or drink for sustenance, or sleep, etc.  He also could not be beat up, whipped, nailed to the cross et al.  Thus, He had to become man so that all that could take place to fulfill scripture and to redeem us.

God the Son took on flesh because otherwise He could not die and therefore could not redeem us.  This is a beautiful gospel and I am afraid that you are missing it, Marty.

You said:

Quote

And he himself stated when he was ascending to his present position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church, that he was ascending to his God and our God.

Of course, His Father happens also to be God and as His Son, His PERFECT Son, He is always in subjection to His perfect Father who happens to also be God in nature like Himself.  If His Father who He is subject to is God by nature like Himself, then His Father would be His God also and forever.  That is consistent with God begetting God, the Son.  That is also consistent with what the Father says to Him and calls Him which is recorded in Hebrews:

Heb 1:8But of the Son He says,
        “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
        AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
        THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
        WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10And,
        “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
        AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

11THEY
WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
        AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
        LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
        BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
        AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

Note that the Father calls Him God and Jehovah (LORD).

Thomas also calls Jesus 'my God' directly to Him.

This further coincides with the God beget God, the Son understanding that I have.

YOu said:

Quote

There is only “one God” and Jesus was sent by Him to reconcile us unto Himself.  Jesus did not say that we should worship him as God, but said:

Of course we are to worship the Father and when you worship the Father in truth you will worship the Son who is in perfect unity with Him as our one deity authority.  There is only one deity authority.  Jehovah is the God of gods AND the Lord of lords.  Jesus is the Lord of lords.  For us, we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.  That is two who are the one unity called Jehovah.

Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.  Jehovah happens to be made up of two through their Holy Spirit…one who is the God of gods and one who is the Lord of lords.  Again, Jesus is the Lord of lords.  Each member of the unity called Jehovah is also referred to as Jehovah…one is the Father and the other is the Son.  Context helps determine who or what is being spoken about sometimes.  Other times it is harder to tell.

Jesus was worshiped and never stopped anyone from doing so.  In fact, He regarded it as a demonstration of one's faith and praised them for their faith at times.  Jesus NEVER said that He would not be worshiped nor that He should not be worshiped.  It wasn't His place to move people to worship Him, that is the act of the Holy Spirit of God or the Father who tells all the angels to worship the Son and will say:

10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When we worship the Father 'in truth' our knees will bow to Jesus also and that will be to the glory of God the Father.

Compare these passages:
Isaiah 45:22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
        For I am God, and there is no other.

23“I have sworn by Myself,
        The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
        And will not turn back,
        That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
        Men will come to Him,
        And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

25“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
        Will be justified and will glory.”

And this one:

Romans 14:7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

     10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,
        “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
        AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

God bless and good night,
Kathi

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2011,12:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,18:29) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…….. One of THEM?  The other of THEM?   Kathi, the ONLY way your words would make sense is if we had TWO Gods.   Yet for US, there is but ONE God, the Father………… How I've longed for you to become one of US, Kathi.

We have already made sense of it but you just don't accept it. You should have put it this way,

“Kathi, the ONLY way your words make sense is if we have TWO persons.

Since we do have two persons it makes perfect sense.”

Quote

Yet for US, there is but ONE God, the Father…………

Yet Jesus is the “ONLY despotes” (Jude 4). The term “despotes” is equal to the term “God.”

KJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29)

Wakeup, Welcome to HN! You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God.

Angels cannot die either. Christ was made lower than the angels so He could suffer death. He was made lower than the angels NOT by being begotten but by taking human flesh.

He was 'begotten' at His resurrection.

KJ

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 17 2012,10:46)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2011,12:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,18:29) That way one of them could empty Himself and become something that COULD DIE (a fleshly man) while the other (the Father) would remain in complete control and not be empty of His power and authority…….. One of THEM?  The other of THEM?   Kathi, the ONLY way your words would make sense is if we had TWO Gods.   Yet for US, there is but ONE God, the Father………… How I've longed for you to become one of US, Kathi. We have already made sense of it but you just don't accept it. You should have put it this way, “Kathi, the ONLY way your words make sense is if we have TWO persons. Since we do have two persons it makes perfect sense.” Quote Yet for US, there is but ONE God, the Father………… Yet Jesus is the “ONLY despotes” (Jude 4). The term “despotes” is equal to the term “God.” KJ

funny

[Lightenup]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 16 2012,11:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,11:29) Wakeup, Welcome to HN! You are right in that God cannot die…that is one reason why He begat His Son who is God like the Father God and referred to as the begotten God.   Angels cannot die either. Christ was made lower than the angels so He could suffer death. He was made lower than the angels NOT by being begotten but by taking human flesh. He was 'begotten' at His resurrection. KJ

Hi Jack,
Agreed, but the Word was begotten before the ages. The 'Word' is and always has been another person that came out of the Father before the ages. Jesus was also begotten from the tomb.

Nice to hear from you,
Kathi

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