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Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,00:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2012,17:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 30 2012,22:53) If you don't then I will make a poll about it or put you on the hot seat about it.
Do what you want. I've led you to the water, Kathi. I'm not required to do anything more than that.I'll just ask this question back of you:
Kathi, I sent you this message THROUGH the internet. Is the internet the one who sent you a message?
Mike,
Lucky for you t8 was able to answer the question correctly. The answer is both can be credited with installing the pool cover, the company and the employee.Why is this so hard for you to answer? Because you know it will bust your 'Jesus did not make one single thing' theory?
you asked:
Quote Kathi, I sent you this message THROUGH the internet. Is the internet the one who sent you a message? You go to great lengths to make what is simple very complicated. You sent the message, the internet delivered the message. Both were involved in me getting this message. You couldn't have done it without the internet Mike.
All things are from the Father and made by the Son.
The Father provided all things for the Son to use to bring all things into being…Both did God sized tasks in creation. Together, both created all things.Let's give credit where credit is due.
Kathi
Kathi1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM WHOM are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ,BY WHOM ARE all things, and we exist through Him.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1Co 8:7 But not everyone knows this……….is verse seven apply to you
STILL do not get it
ONE GOD ONE LORD DOES NOT EQUAL TWO GODS ? GOT IT ? THIS IS WHY PAUL CALLED THEM CLEARLY ONE GOD AND ONE LORDPierre
Pierre,
The one Lord has more than one name and title, do you believe this?
Do you believe that He is called the begotten theos in scriptures, specifically John 1:18?Do you believe that He is the Word that was God in John 1:1
Then it shouldn't be too hard to see that He is called Lord in some places and God in other places. Why don't you show me when He stopped being the begotten theos, Pierre.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2012,18:17) Kathi, Scripture says we have a CREATOR. You say we have CREATORS.
I will go with the scriptures, thanks.
Like t8 said regarding ABC Pool Cover Company and the employee…both installed the pool cover. A person can say that the ABC Pool Cover Company installed the pool cover but that would NOT mean that the employee did not install the pool cover would it?You want to say that the Almighty God created the world in such and such passage therefore the Son did not create the world.
See how when you use a very possible real life example that you can relate to, it helps, you can see that just by saying that the ABC Pool Cover Company installed the pool cover does not mean that the employee did not install the pool cover. Get it…take a drink from some clean water Mike and understand.
It depends on your perspective, like t8 said.
If the pool customer walked into the ABC Pool Cover shop and asked for the name of the person that installed her pool cover, the employee's name would be the name she would get. Wouldn't it?
The scriptures say “Let US make man in OUR image” so I believe scripture.
Living water for free, come drink! Can't beat the price
Kathi
Okay Kathi,
Imagine this fake scenario:
I am Mike Boll. I own a company that installs pool covers for many companies that sell them – one of which is ABC Pool Coverings.
But I personally don't do any of the work of installing the cover, as I have guys to do that part.
Now, when the owner of ABC Pool Coverings is showing a potential customer one of their other jobs, he says, “I installed this particular cover through Mike Boll.”
Who really installed the cover, Kathi? ABC Pool Coverings? My workers? It doesn't really matter, because the point is that it was installed THROUGH Mike Boll, yet Mike Boll didn't personally lay one finger on that cover.
It was a creation of ABC Pool Coverings, and was created THROUGH Mike Boll, yet I didn't create it.
Kathi, that pool cover had but ONE creator………..just like we do. And the one through whom that pool cover was created was not the creator of it…………..just like in the creation of the universe.
Hebrews 1:1-2 spells this out for you so well. And you were doing so well to understand it…………for a while. In fact, you understood it all fine UNTIL it came to the point where the scripture disagreed with your own imagined doctrine.
You were able to understand that ONE God spoke to us throughout the years – at first through the prophets of old, and more recently, through his prophet Jesus. You were able to understand that the ones THROUGH WHOM that ONE God spoke were NOT the ones who did the speaking.
Yet, when it came to the part where that SAME EXACT ONE God created THROUGH another, you fell away from your original, logical statements, and were unable to acknowledge that the one THROUGH WHOM that ONE God created was NOT the one who did the creating.
Compare my last two paragraphs with each other, Kathi. Look at all the similarities in the wordings. You yourself agreed with me 100% concerning the first paragraph. Why not the second?
The only reason I can think of is that the second one refutes your “Creators” doctrine.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,18:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2012,18:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Mike,
You answered correctly…there are two theos spoken about.1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
New question:
Now does John 1:1-3 only mention the theos that was 'the Word' as the one that all things were made through and that apart from the 'Word' nothing came into being that has come into being?
All things came into being through him……….. That begs the question: And who did those things come FROM, if the Word is the one they came THROUGH?Just as in Hebrews 1, the ones God spoke THROUGH are not the ones who did the speaking. (You've already agreed to this.) Likewise, in John 1, the one all things came THROUGH is not the one all things came FROM. It is spelled out for us very simply in 1 Cor 8:6. In that scripture, Paul tells us exactly who all things came FROM, and who all things came THROUGH.
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian
Kathi, the one through whom the thing is created is not to be confused with the one who actually created the thing. As Tertullian brilliantly points out, they are not the same person, and only one of them is “He who creates”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Your question:
Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?No, if we understand that the Son was the begotten God, then we understand that there were two theos that created the universe…
The logic I used above will apply here as well. Jesus is one THROUGH WHOM God spoke to us. You have agreed that being spoken THROUGH does not make you the speaker. With that in mind:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The pronouns “he” all refer back to the aforementioned “God”. It was God who spoke. It was God who appointed. It was God who made the universe. The fact that He made the universe THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the Maker any more than the fact that God spoke THROUGH Jesus made Jesus the speaker.
You have agreed to one of those two points already. I hope you will put away pride and wishes and agree to the second one, because it is the scriptural truth of the matter.
peace,
mike
Mike,
Could you please answer this question:
If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothThanks,
Kathi
Mike,
Back up and answer my scenario if you want me to address your scenario.If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?
Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothThanks,
KathiYour scenario doesn't apply. Mine does. How do I know? Because of the SEVEN different scriptures I've showed you where Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN the ONE who created all things.
And because of ALL the MANY scriptures that speak of our Creator, while NO SCRIPTURE ever speaks of our Creators.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,20:57) Pierre,
The one Lord has more than one name and title, do you believe this?
Do you believe that He is called the begotten theos in scriptures, specifically John 1:18?Do you believe that He is the Word that was God in John 1:1
Then it shouldn't be too hard to see that He is called Lord in some places and God in other places. Why don't you show me when He stopped being the begotten theos, Pierre.
Kathi
KathiQuote Do you believe that He is called the begotten theos in scriptures, specifically John 1:18? is this written in the Greek copy or only in your version of scriptures
so it would be the word THEOS right ??
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,18:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,18:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2012,18:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Mike,
You answered correctly…there are two theos spoken about.1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
New question:
Now does John 1:1-3 only mention the theos that was 'the Word' as the one that all things were made through and that apart from the 'Word' nothing came into being that has come into being?
All things came into being through him……….. That begs the question: And who did those things come FROM, if the Word is the one they came THROUGH?Just as in Hebrews 1, the ones God spoke THROUGH are not the ones who did the speaking. (You've already agreed to this.) Likewise, in John 1, the one all things came THROUGH is not the one all things came FROM. It is spelled out for us very simply in 1 Cor 8:6. In that scripture, Paul tells us exactly who all things came FROM, and who all things came THROUGH.
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian
Kathi, the one through whom the thing is created is not to be confused with the one who actually created the thing. As Tertullian brilliantly points out, they are not the same person, and only one of them is “He who creates”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Your question:
Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?No, if we understand that the Son was the begotten God, then we understand that there were two theos that created the universe…
The logic I used above will apply here as well. Jesus is one THROUGH WHOM God spoke to us. You have agreed that being spoken THROUGH does not make you the speaker. With that in mind:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The pronouns “he” all refer back to the aforementioned “God”. It was God who spoke. It was God who appointed. It was God who made the universe. The fact that He made the universe THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the Maker any more than the fact that God spoke THROUGH Jesus made Jesus the speaker.
You have agreed to one of those two points already. I hope you will put away pride and wishes and agree to the second one, because it is the scriptural truth of the matter.
peace,
mike
Mike,
Could you please answer this question:
If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothThanks,
Kathi
Mike,
Back up and answer my scenario if you want me to address your scenario.If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?
Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothThanks,
Kathi
Mike,
Please answer the question, whether it applies to the Father and Son in creation is besides the point and does not keep you from knowing the answer, does it.Thanks,
KathiQuote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,19:20) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,20:57) Pierre,
The one Lord has more than one name and title, do you believe this?
Do you believe that He is called the begotten theos in scriptures, specifically John 1:18?Do you believe that He is the Word that was God in John 1:1
Then it shouldn't be too hard to see that He is called Lord in some places and God in other places. Why don't you show me when He stopped being the begotten theos, Pierre.
Kathi
KathiQuote Do you believe that He is called the begotten theos in scriptures, specifically John 1:18? is this written in the Greek copy or only in your version of scriptures
so it would be the word THEOS right ??
Pierre
Pierre,
Fyi, http://concordances.org/greek/2316.htmNow, please tell me when Jesus stopped being the begotten theos.
Thanks,
KathiMike,
you asked:Quote Who really installed the cover, Kathi? ABC Pool Coverings? My workers? It doesn't really matter, because the point is that it was installed THROUGH Mike Boll, yet Mike Boll didn't personally lay one finger on that cover. The workers installed the pool cover.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2012,19:17) Your scenario doesn't apply. Mine does. How do I know? Because of the SEVEN different scriptures I've showed you where Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN the ONE who created all things. And because of ALL the MANY scriptures that speak of our Creator, while NO SCRIPTURE ever speaks of our Creators.
Mike,
When the creator is a unity of more than one member, there is no need of pluralizing the word 'creator' when speaking of the unity as the creator, nor is it necessary to pluralize the word 'creator' when there are two if you are just referring to one of them at that moment. Because one is addressed as the creator does not also mean the other wasn't.If ABC Pool Cover Company is said to be the installer of the pool cover, that doesn't mean that the workers didn't install the pool cover. It depends on context, a concept which you seem to want to ignore.
Kathi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 05 2012,18:15) Hi Kathi,
We should worship the same God that Jesus did.
Hi Nick,
Nice to see you. You are right and we give the same honor to the Son because of it.Kathi
Hi K,
God was also in the adopted brothers of Jesus but they did not allow themselves to be worshiped as God did they?
“God is at work in you to will and to do”Hi Nick,
Jesus did allow Himself to be worshipped. There is a reason for that. There is also a reason why the adopted brothers did not allow themselves to be worshiped but worshiped both the Father and the Son.Do take care,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2012,17:19) Mike,
When the creator is a unity of more than one member, there is no need of pluralizing the word 'creator' when speaking of the unity as the creator, nor is it necessary to pluralize the word 'creator' when there are two if you are just referring to one of them at that moment. Because one is addressed as the creator does not also mean the other wasn't.
But Jesus is never addressed as creating one single thing, Kathi. And in at least seven scriptures (and counting), he is clearly listed as someone other than the One who created all things.For example, in Acts 4, Peter and John prayed TO the One who created the heavens, earth, sea, and EVERYTHING in them. They prayed this prayer THROUGH that One's “holy servant Jesus Christ”.
It is clear that they didn't pray TO God's holy servant Jesus Christ. And the One they DID pray to is the ONE who created all things. If Jesus is not that One, then he has no choice but to be one of those things created BY that One.
Hi,
Jesus is the man.
Jesus CHRIST is the anointed man.
The anointing of God's Spirit in him performed all God's works.That Spirit in him is the WORD
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 07 2012,08:15) Hi K,
Was the reason that they all knew our God lives and none can compare with Him??
Greetings Nick. Hope you have beenn well.KJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 06 2012,15:48) Hi,
Jesus is the man.
Jesus CHRIST is the anointed man.
The anointing of God's Spirit in him performed all God's works.That Spirit in him is the WORD
Jesus IS the Word, Nick. But you are right that it was God doing the signs and wonders THROUGH His servant Jesus – just as He did many other signs and wonders through His other servants.
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