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Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,11:59) Pierre,
'Almost all of you' happens to be only a handful of people and I have shown you verses that say the opposite of what you proclaim. The handful of people here are nothing compared to those who are not here that agree that the Son of God is not a creature but the creator of the creature. There are millions that believe that truth, a truth that is found in the Bible and taught since the first church as I have shown through scripture and the recorded history of the early church. So, your argument about me having my own Bible translation is still not proved just because you disagree with me. Don't lie and slander people just because you can not see what those who see do see. Btw, I am not advancing 'my' scriptures but what is written in the original scriptures. Show me any scripture that I have quoted that is not in a known translation, Pierre, or apologize because lying is an act against God not for God.Blind people should believe the people who can see when they tell them that they are following a path that leads to a pit. Of course if they deny that they are blind, they may not believe and only find out too late after they fell into that pit that was before them (after arguing for a year or so that they can see and that there really is no pit). Consider it hopeful perseverance that I am still here to show you, many would have left long ago (and did).
Kathi
KathiLightenup
Group: Regular Members
Posts: 6183
Joined: Feb. 2008
Posted: Aug. 31 2011,09:06
Rev 6:15
15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”The One on the throne and the Lamb share one wrath.
————–
Jehovah our God is the unity of the God of gods (Jehovah,the Father) and the Lord of lords (Jehovah,the Son). Deut 10:17Worship the Father, the Son and their Holy Spirit as the fullness of Jehovah, who alone as a unity, was the creator of heaven and earth.
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
Rev 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”IF YOU READ YOUR COMMENT VERY CAREFULLY YOU WILL SEE THAT THE INTERPRETATION YOU GIVE DOES NOT REFLECT THE ONE IN SCRIPTURE, niv VERSION 1984
Pierre
Pierre,
I don't see why you say that it doesn't reflect the one in scripture. Can you clarify why you said that?Thanks,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2012,18:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Mike,
You answered correctly…there are two theos spoken about.1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
New question:
Now does John 1:1-3 only mention the theos that was 'the Word' as the one that all things were made through and that apart from the 'Word' nothing came into being that has come into being?
All things came into being through him……….. That begs the question: And who did those things come FROM, if the Word is the one they came THROUGH?Just as in Hebrews 1, the ones God spoke THROUGH are not the ones who did the speaking. (You've already agreed to this.) Likewise, in John 1, the one all things came THROUGH is not the one all things came FROM. It is spelled out for us very simply in 1 Cor 8:6. In that scripture, Paul tells us exactly who all things came FROM, and who all things came THROUGH.
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian
Kathi, the one through whom the thing is created is not to be confused with the one who actually created the thing. As Tertullian brilliantly points out, they are not the same person, and only one of them is “He who creates”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Your question:
Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?No, if we understand that the Son was the begotten God, then we understand that there were two theos that created the universe…
The logic I used above will apply here as well. Jesus is one THROUGH WHOM God spoke to us. You have agreed that being spoken THROUGH does not make you the speaker. With that in mind:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The pronouns “he” all refer back to the aforementioned “God”. It was God who spoke. It was God who appointed. It was God who made the universe. The fact that He made the universe THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the Maker any more than the fact that God spoke THROUGH Jesus made Jesus the speaker.
You have agreed to one of those two points already. I hope you will put away pride and wishes and agree to the second one, because it is the scriptural truth of the matter.
peace,
mike
Mike,
Could you please answer this question:
If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothThanks,
KathiHi Kathi:
You say:
Quote I believe that we reconcile this by accepting that the only begotten Son of God was in truth the only begotten Son of God, i.e. the only begotten God due to the 'like begats like' design that the creator has put in place. AND that there is PERFECT unity between them to be our one God authority. We can reconcile this by accepting that there is “One God”, and that Jesus is whom the Father has revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter.
Mat 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And so, this is the revelation to us from the Father. If he wanted to reveal to us that Jesus was the begotten God, he would have done so. He did not, and therefore, He is not.
He is the “express image of God's person” and so in this sense, he is God. He and the Father are one in the spirit. The Word of God that he obeyed and is the spirit of the Son came from the Father, and he also prays to the Father that we would be one with he and the Father in that same spirit of of holiness through the Word of God that he obeyed unto death on the cross.
Quote n 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Yes, Thomas called him his Lord and his God, but the scriptures that follow this exclamation indicate:
Quote [/b]Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. [/b] Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
Jhn 20:30 ¶ And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
It does not say these scriptures are written that you might believe that Jesus is God or that he is “the begotten God”, does it?
And the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit according to the scriptures, not a “Third Person of a Tri-une God”.
Quote 1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
And so, let's come into unity teaching the Word of God as it is written so that the prayer of our Lord in John 17 will have been answered, “that the world may know that God sent him to reconcile the world unto Himself”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,17:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2012,18:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Mike,
You answered correctly…there are two theos spoken about.1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
New question:
Now does John 1:1-3 only mention the theos that was 'the Word' as the one that all things were made through and that apart from the 'Word' nothing came into being that has come into being?
All things came into being through him……….. That begs the question: And who did those things come FROM, if the Word is the one they came THROUGH?Just as in Hebrews 1, the ones God spoke THROUGH are not the ones who did the speaking. (You've already agreed to this.) Likewise, in John 1, the one all things came THROUGH is not the one all things came FROM. It is spelled out for us very simply in 1 Cor 8:6. In that scripture, Paul tells us exactly who all things came FROM, and who all things came THROUGH.
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian
Kathi, the one through whom the thing is created is not to be confused with the one who actually created the thing. As Tertullian brilliantly points out, they are not the same person, and only one of them is “He who creates”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Your question:
Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?No, if we understand that the Son was the begotten God, then we understand that there were two theos that created the universe…
The logic I used above will apply here as well. Jesus is one THROUGH WHOM God spoke to us. You have agreed that being spoken THROUGH does not make you the speaker. With that in mind:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The pronouns “he” all refer back to the aforementioned “God”. It was God who spoke. It was God who appointed. It was God who made the universe. The fact that He made the universe THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the Maker any more than the fact that God spoke THROUGH Jesus made Jesus the speaker.
You have agreed to one of those two points already. I hope you will put away pride and wishes and agree to the second one, because it is the scriptural truth of the matter.
peace,
mike
Mike,
Could you please answer this question:
If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothThanks,
Kathi
No Kathi,I won't go back to the beginning of this discussion with you. You have already said that those through whom the One spoke did not do the speaking.
Likewise, the one through whom that One created did not do the creating.
I have laid it all out for you using nothing but scriptures. Your own answers did you in on this one.
He who creates is One, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Kathi, GOD created – and He did that THROUGH Jesus. That will NEVER say we have two creators, no matter how hard you try to make it so.
I'm done with this discussion as well now. I've led you to the water – it's up to you whether or not you drink it.
peace and love to you,
mikeMike,
Please answer the question:If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?
Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothIt is important that you answer this with an honest response. If you don't then I will make a poll about it or put you on the hot seat about it. So, just answer it, please.
peace and love to you too,
KathiIt is clear that God who has a name Yahweh is not the first begotten Son whose name is Yashua,Yahshua,Yeshua who is Jesus the Christ, and the Comforter is the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit Of God. The mediator between man and God is Christ. He(Jesus the son of God) died for on the Cross not God Yahweh.
Hi Keng, and welcome to HN!
It is so simple, isn't it? Yet it is so hard for many people to actually believe the following scriptural teachings:
Jesus was begotten BY God. (Psalm 2:7, John 3:16)
Jesus is a creation OF God. (Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)
Jesus is the Son OF God. (Matt 16:16)
Jesus is the Word/Spokesman OF God. (John 1:1, Rev 19:13)
Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/Anointed One OF God. (Luke 2:11, Acts 2:36)
Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb OF God. (John 1:29, Rev 7:10)
Jesus is a prophet OF God. (Luke 4:24, Acts 3:22)
Jesus is an angel/messenger OF God. (John 8:28, 12:49, Galatians 4:14, Revelation 22:16)
Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and men. (1 Tim 2:5)
Jesus is a Priest OF God. (Heb 5:10)
Jesus is a Servant OF God. (Acts 4:30)
Jesus OBEYS God. (John 8:29, 12:49)
Jesus WORSHIPS God. (John 4:22)
Jesus says his God is greater than him, and all. (John 14:28, 10:29)
Jesus says that our God is also his own God. (John 20:17, Rev 3:12)
Jesus distinguishes himself as someone OTHER THAN his God. (John 10:36, 17:3)
Jesus was sent BY God. (Gal 4:4)
Jesus sits at the right hand OF God. (Mark 16:19, Acts 2:33)
Jesus rules in the power, authority, and name OF God. (Micah 5:4, Matt 28:18)
Jesus will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to his own God. (1 Cor 15:24, 28)peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 30 2012,22:53) If you don't then I will make a poll about it or put you on the hot seat about it.
Do what you want. I've led you to the water, Kathi. I'm not required to do anything more than that.I'll just ask this question back of you:
Kathi, I sent you this message THROUGH the internet. Is the internet the one who sent you a message?
Now, to finish up with Hebrews 1:1-2, we have agreed that, ACCORDING TO THAT SCRIPTURE, there was but ONE God who spoke to us through the prophets of old and through His prophet Jesus in these last days, right? Right.
And we have agreed that the ones who were spoken through did not do the speaking, right? Right.
And using that same reasoning, although you won't admit it, you have likewise already agreed that there was ONE God who created the universe through His Son.
And that the one through whom the universe was created did not do the creating.
This is what your own words have taught us, Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 31 2012,15:53) Mike,
Please answer the question:If ABC Pool Cover Company installed a pool cover through employee Mikeboll…who installed the pool cover?
Just choose one answer:
A. Mikeboll
B. ABC Pool Cover Company
C. BothIt is important that you answer this with an honest response. If you don't then I will make a poll about it or put you on the hot seat about it. So, just answer it, please.
peace and love to you too,
Kathi
You could say that both installed the pool cover depending what your perspective is. But ultimately, legally, and authoratively, it is ABC Pool Cover Company.Mikeboll installed it in the name of the ABC Pool Cover Company, but ABC Pool cover installed it as it was their contract/job/will. Remember that there were also many people involved in the making of the pool cover itself and many people created the tools that were used too so you could make the argument that imaginary Mighty Pool Cover LTD who made the cover were also indirectly involved.
My guess is that the client would refer to ABC Pool Cover Company as being the one who installed the pool cover. They are probably unaware of the worker who was sent in their name or to represent them.
Likewise if I lead someone to repentance and faith in God, then I have done this in the name of Jesus and technically speaking God has saved this person through Jesus, through myself. But the glory certainly rests with God and not myself and Jesus also does not take the glory for that which was initiated by God.
Just as it says, worthy is the lamb who was slain and praise be to God in Revelation, you could also say great job ABC Pool Cover Company and a special thanks to the skills of Mikeboll their employee.
Remember that without ABC Pool Cover, there would be no installation. If Mikeboll didn't turn up for work, ABC Pool Cover likely could still install the cover. What does that mean. It means that God made all things through Jesus and God sent Jesus to save man in the same way. It doesn't mean that Christ did these things of his own will through God. Jesus said, I only do that which the Father shows me and speak what I hear him speak. Not my will but your will…
Ultimately God made all things through Christ and some of these made things have been transformed by man.
God > Christ > Man. That is the order.
So who made a table. Man through Christ through God when you think of it as man cannot create a table but really transforms wood and metal into a table. It is the wood and rock that metal comes from that is created.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 31 2012,17:08) My guess is that the client would refer to ABC Pool Cover Company as being the one who installed the pool cover. They are probably unaware of the worker who was sent in their name or to represent them.
Good point.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 31 2012,17:08) So who made a table. Man through Christ through God when you think of it as man cannot create a table but really transforms wood and metal into a table. It is the wood and rock that metal comes from that is created.
Another good point. Jesus is called the “master craftsman” at the Creator's side. But even if Jesus personally fashioned or shaped the things that his God created into other things, he wouldn't get credit for the creation any more than a man who fashioned a table out of a tree would get credit for creating the tree itself.Mike and t8
yes it is so,even computers or radio,wireless appls;would not work if it was not for Gods creation of the waves sound,magnetic,ect
men only transform not create even if they say they create it is a lie,
Pierre
It reminds me of this thing in Reader's Digest a long time ago.
It is a story of a man talking to God and claiming that with all the scientific developments, man can now create life, and he was going to prove it to God.
I don't remember how it goes, but it ends with the man grabbing a handful of dirt and heading off to his lab, and God says, “Wait a minute……………get your OWN dirt!”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2012,18:24) It reminds me of this thing in Reader's Digest a long time ago. It is a story of a man talking to God and claiming that with all the scientific developments, man can now create life, and he was going to prove it to God.
I don't remember how it goes, but it ends with the man grabbing a handful of dirt and heading off to his lab, and God says, “Wait a minute……………get your OWN dirt!”
yes that is the size of it
Please notice:
t8 said:Quote You could say that both installed the pool cover depending what your perspective is. I rest my case. It depends on the context in the Bible too regarding creation. The unity created or the Son created or the Father created. Either way is correct depending what the context is.
It is just as likely that the customer observed the employee installing the pool cover and knew full well who installed the ABC Pool Cover Company's cover. Both the company and the employee get the credit for installing the cover.
I presently design floral arrangements for a certain store. The manager asked me tonight 'which ones did you MAKE' and then I pointed out the ones that I MADE. See how easy that is. The store did not 'make' those arrangements, I did. The store provided the materials, I made the arrangements. All things are from the store, and by me all those arrangements were made. I was the designer of the arrangements and I brought them to a completed state as an arrangement, some other person/persons designed each tool that I used to put it together. My point is that more than one person is credited with those flower arrangements getting to the point of being arranged. To say that just the person who designed the tools arranged the flowers would be incorrect wouldn't it. Unfortunately Mike wouldn't give me the credit as the designer and maker of the arrangement if he handled it like he does with the topic of creation where Jesus does not get credit for making one thing.
I believe that Mike would take credit for installing the pool cover, however. I believe that when asked what he does for a living, he would say that he installs pool covers if he worked as an employee of a company that installs pool covers through him.
Jesus made all things and the Father provided those things so that He could do it. He is credited with making all things.
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.Kathi
Furthermore:
Quote So who made a table. Man through Christ through God when you think of it as man cannot create a table but really transforms wood and metal into a table. It is the wood and rock that metal comes from that is created. Man made the table. God made the materials that man used. This is not hard. Although members on this board want to make it so complicated.
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Both created the world. EASY! You don't have to make it so difficult.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2012,17:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 30 2012,22:53) If you don't then I will make a poll about it or put you on the hot seat about it.
Do what you want. I've led you to the water, Kathi. I'm not required to do anything more than that.I'll just ask this question back of you:
Kathi, I sent you this message THROUGH the internet. Is the internet the one who sent you a message?
Mike,
Lucky for you t8 was able to answer the question correctly. The answer is both can be credited with installing the pool cover, the company and the employee.Why is this so hard for you to answer? Because you know it will bust your 'Jesus did not make one single thing' theory?
you asked:
Quote Kathi, I sent you this message THROUGH the internet. Is the internet the one who sent you a message? You go to great lengths to make what is simple very complicated. You sent the message, the internet delivered the message. Both were involved in me getting this message. You couldn't have done it without the internet Mike.
All things are from the Father and made by the Son.
The Father provided all things for the Son to use to bring all things into being…Both did God sized tasks in creation. Together, both created all things.Let's give credit where credit is due.
KathiMarty,
you said:Quote And so, this is the revelation to us from the Father. If he wanted to reveal to us that Jesus was the begotten God, he would have done so. He did not, and therefore, He is not. John 1:18
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.Is that verse not part of the inspired scripture, Marty?
2 Tim 3:14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Obviously you have not been revealed this truth but obviously many others have. So just because you haven't been revealed this does not mean that God hasn't revealed it to others.
All scripture is inspired by God even John 1:18.
Kathi
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