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Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,11:03) Pierre,
Do you see any verses quoted there that are not in known translations? If you find anything in my explanations that are contrary to scripture you have always been welcome to challenge them. I will then give you more verses to support that and you will see that those verses are also found in known translations.So, what you call 'proof' that I have written my own translation of the Bible, is just your way of saying that you don't agree with my understanding? If so, then challenge my understanding without making derogatory and untrue comments because that would be lying and slander.
Also, get to know what a true son is so that you can understand the scriptures and be in unity with those who also know what a true son is. We are to believe what God tells us when He says that Christ is His beloved Son. You deny this truth by saying that the Son is not one by nature but by creation.
Kathi
Kathithis is going on with almost all of us, for a year or so
we keep showing you scriptures but deny there meaning by advancing yours ,and so annul scriptures
Pierre
Pierre,
'Almost all of you' happens to be only a handful of people and I have shown you verses that say the opposite of what you proclaim. The handful of people here are nothing compared to those who are not here that agree that the Son of God is not a creature but the creator of the creature. There are millions that believe that truth, a truth that is found in the Bible and taught since the first church as I have shown through scripture and the recorded history of the early church. So, your argument about me having my own Bible translation is still not proved just because you disagree with me. Don't lie and slander people just because you can not see what those who see do see. Btw, I am not advancing 'my' scriptures but what is written in the original scriptures. Show me any scripture that I have quoted that is not in a known translation, Pierre, or apologize because lying is an act against God not for God.Blind people should believe the people who can see when they tell them that they are following a path that leads to a pit. Of course if they deny that they are blind, they may not believe and only find out too late after they fell into that pit that was before them (after arguing for a year or so that they can see and that there really is no pit). Consider it hopeful perseverance that I am still here to show you, many would have left long ago (and did).
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,11:59) Pierre,
'Almost all of you' happens to be only a handful of people and I have shown you verses that say the opposite of what you proclaim. The handful of people here are nothing compared to those who are not here that agree that the Son of God is not a creature but the creator of the creature. There are millions that believe that truth, a truth that is found in the Bible and taught since the first church as I have shown through scripture and the recorded history of the early church. So, your argument about me having my own Bible translation is still not proved just because you disagree with me. Don't lie and slander people just because you can not see what those who see do see. Btw, I am not advancing 'my' scriptures but what is written in the original scriptures. Show me any scripture that I have quoted that is not in a known translation, Pierre, or apologize because lying is an act against God not for God.Blind people should believe the people who can see when they tell them that they are following a path that leads to a pit. Of course if they deny that they are blind, they may not believe and only find out too late after they fell into that pit that was before them (after arguing for a year or so that they can see and that there really is no pit). Consider it hopeful perseverance that I am still here to show you, many would have left long ago (and did).
Kathi
Kathythere was only twelve people within millions at one point that really and truly believed in scriptures as it was written,so whats your point ?
Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 27 2012,18:41) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 26 2012,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2012,16:50) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,12:54)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine.
Hi Wake-up,Why not?
God bless
Ed J
You tell me .
Hi Wake-up,It is YOUR point. …so tell us why?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Wake-up?Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2012,13:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,11:59) Pierre,
'Almost all of you' happens to be only a handful of people and I have shown you verses that say the opposite of what you proclaim. The handful of people here are nothing compared to those who are not here that agree that the Son of God is not a creature but the creator of the creature. There are millions that believe that truth, a truth that is found in the Bible and taught since the first church as I have shown through scripture and the recorded history of the early church. So, your argument about me having my own Bible translation is still not proved just because you disagree with me. Don't lie and slander people just because you can not see what those who see do see. Btw, I am not advancing 'my' scriptures but what is written in the original scriptures. Show me any scripture that I have quoted that is not in a known translation, Pierre, or apologize because lying is an act against God not for God.Blind people should believe the people who can see when they tell them that they are following a path that leads to a pit. Of course if they deny that they are blind, they may not believe and only find out too late after they fell into that pit that was before them (after arguing for a year or so that they can see and that there really is no pit). Consider it hopeful perseverance that I am still here to show you, many would have left long ago (and did).
Kathi
Kathythere was only twelve people within millions at one point that really and truly believed in scriptures as it was written,so whats your point ?
Pierre
They nearly all died for the truth that Jesus was the Son of God and knew that He came OUT OF God and was by nature God as the Son. They called Him God in their letters and knew that He was Lord of all. So what is stopping you?Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2012,21:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2012,18:36) Kathi, is there any indication from this scripture that the Son through whom the God of verse 1 AND verse 2 spoke is the God who did the speaking?
No.
Very good. So, before we move on, we both agree that – according to Hebrews 1 – only ONE God spoke to us throughout scripture – in the past through prophets of old, and in these last days, through His Son the prophet, right?In other words, there is no indication from Hebrews 1 that TWO different Gods spoke to us at various times, right?
Mike,
I answered this. Heb 1 does not mention the word 'only' but it does mention 'in various ways' so I cannot agree to that.Kathi
Kathi, IS THERE ANY HINT WHATSOEVER – in Hebrews 1:1-2 – that the writer might be talking about TWO Gods who spoke to us through prophets and through His Son?
YES or NO?
Mike,
You have to read the whole chapter to see that two are called the names of deity, but in the first two verses, it is just talking about one of them speaking to us.My question to you…In John 1:1 is there any indication that there are two theos?
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,15:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2012,10:01) Kathi, IS THERE ANY HINT WHATSOEVER – in Hebrews 1:1-2 – that the writer might be talking about TWO Gods who spoke to us through prophets and through His Son? YES or NO?
Mike………in the first two verses, it is just talking about one of them speaking to us.
Brilliant, Kathi!
Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,15:25) My question to you…In John 1:1 is there any indication that there are two theos?
It is CLEARLY spelled out in John 1:1 that one theos was WITH “THE Theos” – so “YES”, there are TWO theos mentioned in that verse.Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2012,13:15) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 27 2012,18:41) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 26 2012,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2012,16:50) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,12:54)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine.
Hi Wake-up,Why not?
God bless
Ed J
You tell me .
Hi Wake-up,It is YOUR point. …so tell us why?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Wake-up?
EDJ.If an angel came down from heaven and materialise;And scrifice himself on the cross,would his suffering be equal to a human scrifice?
If God was sacrifised;would his suffering be equal to a human.
How can we be for sure that he did not control his pain and suffering? And dont feel a thing.
Can you understand what I am saying now?greetings.
wakeup.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2012,16:25) Marty,
In polytheism there is no perfect harmony in unity…there is conflict between the gods.The Father and the Son are in perfect harmony in unity and there is no conflict between them. They are as one God authority to us. The Son always pleases the Father, the Son always does what He sees the Father doing. There is never ever a conflict.
That is one difference between polytheism and monotheism. Several times in the NT, Jesus is referred to as God, Marty. The Father and He are ONE.
Kathi
Hi Kathi:But the scripture states that the is “One God”, like this:
Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Also, please explain the following inconsistency base on your statements.
You stated that Jesus was alway “God the Son”, and when I asked you when did he become the “begotten God”, you said you think that it was when God said: “Let there be light”.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi all.
I can see that the river is starting to flow again.
we can not allow it to turn into pools.
Lets praise the almighty.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 29 2012,10:33) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2012,13:15) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 27 2012,18:41) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 26 2012,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2012,16:50) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 24 2012,12:54)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his
suffering cant be genuine, his death cant be genuine.
Hi Wake-up,Why not?
God bless
Ed J
You tell me .
Hi Wake-up,It is YOUR point. …so tell us why?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Wake-up?
EDJ.If an angel came down from heaven and materialise;And scrifice himself on the cross,would his suffering be equal to a human scrifice?
If God was sacrifised;would his suffering be equal to a human.
How can we be for sure that he did not control his pain and suffering? And dont feel a thing.
Can you understand what I am saying now?greetings.
wakeup.
Hi Wake-up, NO, and here's why…You changed your explanation from your
original contention of “Half God” to 'HALF ANGEL' or all God?Please answer your original statement for me PLEASE;
I have enlarged it for you, so you don't miss it again.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd,
It seems to me that Wakeup is saying that Jesus on earth was only a human being – not full God, or even half God.
This reminds me of “Was Superman half Superman/half Clark Kent?” or “Was he fully Superman while he was Clark Kent also?”
“Was Julie Andrews half nanny/half nun in the Sound of Music?” or
“Is a baby half a person till they are born and then they become a full person?”Did Superman limit himself during his Clark Kent phase and then unleash his super abilities as needed at a moment's notice.
Did Superman want to advertise that Clark Kent was really Superman or did he want that to be a hidden truth?
I'm not saying this is a perfect example of Jesus being a type of Superman, so don't go off on me about that.
However, it is sorta similar in ways.Are we supposed to accept by understanding or by faith that He was the fully begotten God while He became flesh and remained the fully begotten God while also fully in flesh? It is by faith, not by experiences that we accept this. A person cannot have the identity of being the begotten God and then stop their true identity…it can be hidden within the appearance of man and He can self-limit Himself in a way to be able to experience being fully man with man's limits because that is what the Bible demonstrates, imo. The Bible calls Him the begotten God and then also a man (after coming in the flesh)…so we just believe without having experienced exactly how that works ourselves. Faith is not by sight but by His Spirit.
My two cents,
KathiQuote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2012,19:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2012,16:25) Marty,
In polytheism there is no perfect harmony in unity…there is conflict between the gods.The Father and the Son are in perfect harmony in unity and there is no conflict between them. They are as one God authority to us. The Son always pleases the Father, the Son always does what He sees the Father doing. There is never ever a conflict.
That is one difference between polytheism and monotheism. Several times in the NT, Jesus is referred to as God, Marty. The Father and He are ONE.
Kathi
Hi Kathi:But the scripture states that the is “One God”, like this:
Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Also, please explain the following inconsistency base on your statements.
You stated that Jesus was alway “God the Son”, and when I asked you when did he become the “begotten God”, you said you think that it was when God said: “Let there be light”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,Good questions!
I understand your struggle. In some places the scripture seems to say that there is one person that is God and that He is the Father of Jesus. Then in other places we see the disciples/apostles calling Jesus God also. For instance, Thomas calls Him, “My Lord AND my God.” So what do we do with what may seem as discrepancies? We pray and ask the Lord to reveal truth about the matter. We can't focus on one and disregard the other. Both are written.I believe that we reconcile this by accepting that the only begotten Son of God was in truth the only begotten Son of God, i.e. the only begotten God due to the 'like begats like' design that the creator has put in place. AND that there is PERFECT unity between them to be our one God authority.
Sometimes context speaks of just the Father as God, sometimes the Son as God, sometimes their Holy Spirit as God, and sometimes their unity as God. Context is important to understand who or what is being referred to and sometimes context is unclear but if we trust that they are in perfect unity as our one God authority, whatever is said in the context is not in conflict with the other person, Spirt or unity.
In Eph 4, let me give you some thoughts:
There is one body…the church is the body of Christ,
there is one Spirit…the united Spirit of the Father and the Son,
there is one hope of your calling…that Father and Son and Spirit be glorified through what we believe and do,
there is one Lord…Jesus is Lord through whom are all things,
there is one faith…true faith in the true Father, the true Son and true Holy Spirit,
there is one baptism…baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
there is one God and Father of all…God, the Father,
who is above all because all things are from the Father, through all, by means of His Son through whom all things are made and held together, and in you all by means of the Spirit-the Father and the Son abide in all believers.Also, you asked when He became the 'begotten' God and I said something to the effect that I believe He, who was the PRE-begotten God was eternally within God the Father who beget Him until just before creation. When God said “Let there be Light” I feel that was, based on what God showed me, the time of His begettal or the announcement of His begettal from His eternal existence within.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2012,17:08) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,15:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2012,10:01) Kathi, IS THERE ANY HINT WHATSOEVER – in Hebrews 1:1-2 – that the writer might be talking about TWO Gods who spoke to us through prophets and through His Son? YES or NO?
Mike………in the first two verses, it is just talking about one of them speaking to us.
Brilliant, Kathi!Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,15:25) My question to you…In John 1:1 is there any indication that there are two theos?
It is CLEARLY spelled out in John 1:1 that one theos was WITH “THE Theos” – so “YES”, there are TWO theos mentioned in that verse.
Mike,
You answered correctly…there are two theos spoken about.1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
New question:
Now does John 1:1-3 only mention the theos that was 'the Word' as the one that all things were made through and that apart from the 'Word' nothing came into being that has come into being?Your question:
Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?No, if we understand that the Son was the begotten God, then we understand that there were two theos that created the universe…One theos made it through another theos. If we don't already understand that the Son was the begotten God/theos, then the answer would be yes…and we would be without understanding.
Hebrews 1 has God with the Son…John 1 has God with God 'the Word.'
Those are similar passages with different emphasis.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2012,03:38) Ed, It seems to me that Wakeup is saying that Jesus on earth was only a human being – not full God, or even half God.
Yes, I know that Mike, but that doesn't answer the question of “WHY”?To this…
Quote (Note: I removed the part that I didn't want him to address out of his quote @ 4th post)
If Jesus is half God and half man then his death cant be genuine.I say it can, and it does!
So I would like him to explain why he believes it can't?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Mike,
You answered correctly…there are two theos spoken about.1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
New question:
Now does John 1:1-3 only mention the theos that was 'the Word' as the one that all things were made through and that apart from the 'Word' nothing came into being that has come into being?
All things came into being through him……….. That begs the question: And who did those things come FROM, if the Word is the one they came THROUGH?Just as in Hebrews 1, the ones God spoke THROUGH are not the ones who did the speaking. (You've already agreed to this.) Likewise, in John 1, the one all things came THROUGH is not the one all things came FROM. It is spelled out for us very simply in 1 Cor 8:6. In that scripture, Paul tells us exactly who all things came FROM, and who all things came THROUGH.
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian
Kathi, the one through whom the thing is created is not to be confused with the one who actually created the thing. As Tertullian brilliantly points out, they are not the same person, and only one of them is “He who creates”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:19) Your question:
Does verse 2 distinguish that ONE God as the ONE who created the universe? YES or NO?No, if we understand that the Son was the begotten God, then we understand that there were two theos that created the universe…
The logic I used above will apply here as well. Jesus is one THROUGH WHOM God spoke to us. You have agreed that being spoken THROUGH does not make you the speaker. With that in mind:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The pronouns “he” all refer back to the aforementioned “God”. It was God who spoke. It was God who appointed. It was God who made the universe. The fact that He made the universe THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the Maker any more than the fact that God spoke THROUGH Jesus made Jesus the speaker.
You have agreed to one of those two points already. I hope you will put away pride and wishes and agree to the second one, because it is the scriptural truth of the matter.
peace,
mike
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