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Other accounts
If something happened in the past and it is recorded in different ways in different cultures, that usually suggests that something happened, word got around, and the telling of the account changed over time as to be expected.
Many make this argument against scripture by just assuming that the Bible account is wrong. But that is just bias at work. It is true that you could say the same thing about those who choose the Bible over other accounts. However, scripture is inspired by God for Believers. Other accounts offer no such guarantee. You may find that scripture is carefully copied, but not to the same degree with other accounts.
Take the Epic of Gilgamesh for example. Some say it is proof that scriptures stole the story from an earlier Mesopotamian civilisation. However, if there was a deluge as recorded in scripture, then you would expect there to be other memories or accounts. And given they are passed down, they may differ. But scripture claims inspiration by God, these other accounts do not.
We know that if something happened there is a truthful way of telling the story vs a traditional way of telling it. If scripture is inspired by God, then it won’t suffer degradation like the traditions of men do, unless men tamper with it on purpose or make human mistakes which can be detected.
Here is what the master said about this.
Mark 7:5-13
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
The first to be with God
I appreciate your comparison of Taj Mahal with the creation of God. But the problem here, Taj was not made before (the birth) or marriage of Muntaz to Shahjahan, the Indian Emperor.
I think this statement is irrelevant because the purpose of saying this was to argue how one person can go to the utmost length for another because of love. Knowing that God is love and is eternal, the existence of the universe comes as no surprise considering that God is greater than his own works. This parable was never meant to represent the order of the existence of certain persons.
The invention of the idea of Jesus as the centre of God’s creation or creation (gift as mentioned by you) for Jesus is only the imagination of the NT writers which is not supported by the Hebrew Bible. This is what I am repeatedly arguing here on this Forum.
Or is a new revelation. First the law that condemns, then the messiah which saves the condemned by fulfilling the law of God. Jesus is the lamb of God. He died for your sins. Up to you if you want to pay for your own sins or accept God’s gift of salvation.
Further, it is logical for God to have another with him first given that we are alive and there are innumerable consciousnesses. Someone has to be first right? Unless he created or begat multiple first persons at the exact same instance. If God made other lives, then the first would surely be special. Thus, why is it hard to accept that God in his great love would love the first beyond measure and beyond all else. And if he created the universe for him, then would it not be fitting to save creation through him if creation fell? Sure it would.
You see, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomever shall trust in him will not be destroyed, but gain eternal life. If you are not aligned with God’s Son, then you are not aligned to God himself because you have rejected the one whom God loves and sent into this world to save you.
There is a reason for everything and that includes the universe and your own soul. God doesn’t need the universe to live in. But we do. So why do you think he created it.
Hi LU
@Proclaimer,
You said:
Jesus is not the creator, God is.
Do you think that the Son was just a passive bystander during the creation process? That is not what the Father says of the Son. He identifies the Son as YHVH who laid out the foundation of the world and the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands. Heb 1.
AMEN LU!
THAT’S WHAT I BELIEVE.
JESUS WAS NOT PASSIVE IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION, BUT ACTIVE AS YHVH….
UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE FATHER (Very important)Blessings
Hi Proclaimer
That means he is not the Son of YHWH then.
Does it sound like denial of the Son?
Neither Proclaimer.
In the beginning, the only begotten Son of the Father is able to create (John1:3)what the Father wanted from all eternity for his children (Jesus included)
YHVH IS THE NAME OF GOD THE FATHER AND ALSO OF THE SON.
THIS NAME MEAN THAT HE IS THE ETERNAL I AM, WHO LIVES BY HIMSELF.
THE SON IS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, IN OTHERS WORDS, HE IS ALL THAT THE FATHER IS.
THIS WHY YHVH IS HIS DIVINE NAME
See psalms 24: 7-10
This is about The Son of God before his entry into the heavenly city(after His resurrection) escorted by holy angels (v. 7; 8b; 9; 10b) and received by other holy angels (v. 8a; 10a)Hebrew Transliterated
24: 8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.Darby’s English Translation
24: 8 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.Hebrew Transliterated
24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.Darby’s English Translation
24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.Blessings
Hi Proclaimer
That means he is not the Son of YHWH then.
Does it sound like denial of the Son?
Neither Proclaimer.
Okay, so he is not the son of YHWH according to you.
It’s good to establish some basic foundations of what you believe in order to answer you.
Jesus was God’s plan for man’s salvation and redemption from the beginning. The beginning of Jesus Christ is declared in Matthew 1:18, Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
The word “birth” is gennesis in the Greek, which means “beginning”. Birth, of course, is the beginning of a living soul, as Genesis 2:7 indicates. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Jesus Christ began with his conception and birth. Before that, Jesus Christ was part of God’s plan for man’s redemption and salvation. Jesus, the son of God was in God’s foreknowledge
SonofGod……….You have it “EXACTLY RIGHT” . Brother.
Jesus did not exist before his birth on this earth, Jesus is the fulfillment of the intent of God the Father , for “all” mankind . He is the first human being to achieve what God the Father had in mind for all his human creation. You are very blessed to understand that , very few do brother.
peace and love to you and your…………gene
Jesus did not exist before his birth on this earth,
Gene ,
repent of saying such things !
God through Paul’s mouth to the Colossians tells us that BY Jesus were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Jesus did not exist before his birth on this earth,
But the Word certainly did. The Word was WITH God.
Then he came in the flesh.
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.This was a mystery. It still is to many.
Berean……how many’s times do I have to tell you, the word “by” there means , for the purpose of.
Now please try to follow this OK? ,
God had in mind from the beginning of his creation of this earth, before he created it and everything in it, a purpose, everything in this earth was created for “for mankind” everything. Not so much as one thing was created by him without that being in his mind.
God envisioned the creation of mankind as his “Crown Jewel” Of all creation. But Adam was not the human “fulfillment ” of what God had in his mind as the final achievement of what Mankind was to become. Jesus Christ was that final achievement, of “MANKIND” God was aiming at. He is the finish product of what God the father is driving at for his “whole”, human creation .
Jesus is the Goal for all “MANKIND” , It is for that purpose Jesus came into his “only” existence , he ever had.
You false teachers let the Greek word (dia ) trip you up. It doesn’t mean ( by ) him or (through) him , it means for the purpose of the, “first man” , from mankind , to achieve God the Fathers Goal for us all. Jesus Christ represents God the Fathers “purpose” for “all’ his “human” creation and every thing God has created is also for “All” MANKIND, The Crown Jewel of His creation.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene
Proclaimer……what did Jesus tell us, “you “must” be “born” again”. The first “man” Adam , is not the finish product, the “second” man Adam is. That is why we all must be “born” again, just like Jesus was.
- Jesus was “first born”, from the root and offspring of King David, then was “begotten” by God, after he was baptized at the Jordan river, begotten not “born” , after he died, on the cross/tree, he was then “born” again when he was resurrected from the grave.
- This is “exactly” what must happen to us, we must first be born of the flesh and then begotten by the Spirit of God, then die in the flesh and then “born again” with a new resurrected “BODY” , formed by the Spirit of OUR HEAVENLY Father, who is also our GOD , and Jesus’ God. When that takes place we are “born again”. Right now those who have the Spirit of God ‘in’ them are “begotten” , not yet “born” , still subject to death, exactly as Jesus was, but once resurrected from the dead by the Spirit of our Heavenly Father, abiding “in” us, we are then alive for ever more . “EXACTLY” AS Jesus now is.
- WE ALL from Adam to the last man born of a woman, MUST BE, begotten and “born” again. That was “exactly” what happened to Jesus and what must happen to us also.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene
So who was the precious literal first-born of all creation then?
This was purely the imagination of the NT writers and Christianity stating that God Yahweh literally begot a son in the beginning.
Gene,
You told Berean this:
Berean……how many’s times do I have to tell you, the word “by” there means , for the purpose of.
Translating “dia” (Strong’s #1223) is clarified by what type of word follows it. If the word after “dia” is in the genitive case it is translated as “through” or “by the instrumentality of” as opposed to the accusative case which would be translated as “for the sake of.”
Here is an explanation of this on YouTube:
Gene, if you want to say that the word “by” means “for the purpose of” then prove that the word after it in the Greek is in the accusative case grammatically speaking. Do you know how to find this out? Look at the picture of the verse John 1:3 here for example:
Please notice that the word following through (dia) is “Him” and under the word “Him” is PPro-GM3S. That “G” stands for “genitive” which forces the translation of “dia” to be translated as “through” as in “through by the instrumentality of.”The word dia means “for the sake of” when the word that follows is in the accusative case in Greek grammar. Something rather true is that not only was creation created THROUGH Jesus but also for the sake of Jesus. We see that in Col 1 where “dia” is followed by “Him” written in the genitive case.
Notice that the last line there “all things through Him and unto Him” has “Him” in the genitive (see the “g” in PPro-GM3S for “genitive”) immediately following “di” or dia.
Please learn this, ask me questions if you do not understand this. Ask a Greek scholar to verify this, look at the video. Here is the Strong’s definition of dia:
See where it tells us “usage,” it goes on to say (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of. That “gen” is for the genitive case.
When dia is translated the way that you want it to, dia is before a word that is in the accusative case not the genitive case.
Gene, all things were created by the instrumentality of the Son. That is what the Bible tells us.
So, Gene, if you want to stop being given this lesson, use the word appropriately. It will change your life 😉
Otherwise, I am going to copy and paste this to you every time that I notice you saying what you said to Berean and you are going to look foolish every time you so dogmatically proclaim the wrong translation of “dia.”
Do you want that?
LU
LU……Makes no difference to me what you do. I will maintain that the words by and even “through” means Jesus is the “reason” the example, for what God has in mind for his creation of all Mankind even “the man” Jesus. “Through” takes the form as a channel ” the way”, is that not what Jesus said? , “I am the way” , the “way’ to what? , to be a God, to be your God? NO, BUT to be a Son of God, “exactly as he is” Jesus is the finished product of what God the father has in mind for ” all” his human creation,
Did not Jesus say, I am the first and the last, first of what?, the last of what? He is the first from mankind to enter it the kingdom of God and the last ‘MUST” inter in, the “exact” same way he did.
I am sorry your trinitarian teachings won’t let you understand that, but that not my fault, now is it?
A good start for you and others is to begin to understand this, “mankind ” IS the CROWN JEWEL of “ALL” of God’s whole CREATION . There is no higher creation then “MANKIND”, The book of Hebrews clearly explains it , read it.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
It’s pretty clear what the text says. No excuses please.
You either believe this about Jesus Christ or you don’t. Simple as that.
Gene has chosen not to believe. He thinks it’s a myth like gadam does and seems more inline with an Islamic Jesus than the biblical one..
Of course we have free will, so we can believe whatever we want and face the consequences whatever that may be.
It’s so clear in the text though.
Only an honest believer will accept it.
The Son
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…
The Word
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Jesus Christ
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. But not everyone has this knowledge.
Notice the last sentence above Gene. It seems to be speaking to you directly.
And all three persons above are the same person. When Jesus Christ returns, he comes with his name, “The Word of God”.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Word of God
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems ; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.
Gene,
You have been shown a clear, grammatical reason that proves your use of the Greek word “dia” is misleading and now you have chosen to continue to mislead others. You will be accountable to the Lord Jesus for that.
Btw, it is not a doctrine that tells us that dia means “by the instrumentality of” when the genitive word follows it, it’s unbiased Greek grammar.
This is not a game of Candyland, Gene. This is a serious matter.
Think,
LU
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