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Many are those who deny that Jesus Christ was the first to be with God and by extention, that God created all things through him. Obviously Atheists deny this. But many so-called Believers also deny this.
What does the Bible say? Scripture is actually very clear on this. It says that God created all things through the Word, the Son, and the Lord Jesus Christ. And we know that these three are not three different persons. Clearly, they are the same person who we know as the Jesus Christ.
- The Word. See John 1:3 & 14 &
- The Son. See Hebrews 1:1-2 & Colossians 1: 15-20
- Lord Jesus Christ. See 1 Corinthians 8:6
If God created all things through Jesus Christ the Word, The Son of God, and the Lord, then he must have preceded all things. It seems that the Son is in the unique position between God and Man and God and creation.
John 1:1-3 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made….The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.Colossians 1: 15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Anyone who teaches that Jesus Christ did not exist with God in the beginning of creation is denying what the scriptures teach. Anyone who denies that God created all things through the son of God is also denying what the scriptures teach.
Great post!
Alone with what you have said in the previous post, anyone who teaches that Jesus Christ is not identified by the Father as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands is also denying what the scriptures teach. Hebrews 1:10
LU
There is a difference between creating something and creating something through someone.
One is the creator and the other is the agent.
Scripture teaches this clearly, so it is not really up for debate is it?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Let’s break it down.
- one God, the Father, from whom all things came;
- one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came.
I believe the verse in red above and believe the bullet points I made which were extracted from the verse. Note the keywords in bold.
I simply believe this scripture. I cannot say the same for many others here. That is a fact.
You said:
There is a difference between creating something and creating something through someone.
So if it took two persons to complete the creation process, then one person did not do it alone. Do you agree?
You said this:
One is the creator and the other is the agent.
I disagree.
The Father did not create the world alone.
The Son did not create the world alone.
Therefore, one person cannot be considered the creator and the other not the creator.
Together, they alone. united in Spirit, created the world. YHVH alone created the world. They are YHVH Elohim, they are Echad.
YHVH is the creator, YHVH is God and Lord, Father and Son, perfectly united in Spirit.
Hi Proclaimer,
You: One is the creator and the other is the agent.
Scripture teaches this clearly, so it is not really up for debate is it?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Let’s break it down.
one God, the Father, from whom all things came;
one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came.Me: It is a good argument. But Paul clearly specifies a leading role to Jesus in God’s creation process which is not supported in the Hebrew Bible. I wonder why it was necessary to include Jesus in creation of the world where God alone was the sole author and source and without any agent. Please read Isaiah 45:
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
besides me there is no god.
I arm you, though you do not know me,6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is no one besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.12 I made the earth,
and created humankind upon it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.18 For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
I am the Lord, and there is no other.21 Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the Lord?
There is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is no one besides me.In spite of such clear scriptures in the Hebrew Bible the NT writers created leading role to Jesus in God’s creation, name it as ‘agent’ as quoted by you.
Adam…..I also agree with that, but the difference I see is that it was not the original writers who did that, but the “trinitarian translators” who change word structures, to force the text to say was not intended to be said. Remember the New Testament came to us through the “trinitarian translators “. But that is just one reason, I believe the original text changed from the actual wordings of the original writers.
Here’s the other, I believe the original writers were indeed baptized and recipients of the “Holy Spirit” even the Spirit of “truth ” and were being guided not only by that spirit, but also their very own eye witness accounts. Plus remember the scriptures where Jesus himself told them , that the great deception that would come “by” the many, would be about him, even as it is this day, is it not, about who Jesus “really is”?
Adam you are forcing us to really think brother, that’s a good thing in my mind . Jodi and Mike are also good at that.
peace and love to you all and yours……….gene
Hello brother Gene, thanks for your comments on my post.
You: Adam…..I also agree with that, but the difference I see is that it was not the original writers who did that, but the “trinitarian translators” who change word structures, to force the text to say was not intended to be said. Remember the New Testament came to us through the “trinitarian translators “. But that is just one reason, I believe the original text changed from the actual wordings of the original writers.
Me: We can blame the ‘Trinitarian translators’ every time for the confusion. But I say there will not be smoke without fire. I realize that NT writers certainly created a leading role to Jesus in the context of God’s creation or Salvation process even the doxology they have included Jesus every time. I also find such exaltation is not available for Jewish Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Jewish Messiah is not meant for sharing glory with God and participate in God’s creation process.
You: Here’s the other, I believe the original writers were indeed baptized and recipients of the “Holy Spirit” even the Spirit of “truth ” and were being guided not only by that spirit, but also their very own eye witness accounts. Plus remember the scriptures where Jesus himself told them , that the great deception that would come “by” the many, would be about him, even as it is this day, is it not, about who Jesus “really is”?
Me: Writers being filled with the Holy Spirit is the matter of faith but not for a critical evaluation where we are only evaluating the NT writings with respect to their original source the Hebrew scriptures. I find much discrepancy than harmony between Hebrew scriptures and NT writings.
Hope you will have more broad mind to see the truth behind the confusion created by the NT writers.
Peace to you……Adam
Isaiah 59:20
What does Christianity do with this clear biblical teaching that we can master sin? Christianity simply changes the Bible. It presents a contradictory and incorrect translation of how God instructed mankind to turn from sin, as is demonstrated in a blatant Christian mistranslation of Isaiah 59:20. In the Hebrew original, this verse says:
“A redeemer will come to Zion; and unto those who turn
from transgression.” Isaiah 59:20This verse clearly demonstrates two points: 1) People can turn from transgression; and, 2) The redeemer of Israel will come to Zion and to those who turn away from sin on their own accord. However, in the Christian New Testament the same verse in Isaiah is incorrectly quoted to give the impression that it is the messiah who removes sin. Romans 11:26 says:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion , He will remove
ungodliness from Jacob.” Romans 11:26The mistranslation of the words “to Zion” to “from Zion” and, “those who turn from transgression” to “He will remove ungodliness,” distorts the meaning of the original text. This is an attempt to support the incorrect Christian belief that a messianic redeemer will remove sin. According to the Bible, sincere repentance has always been the fundamental method of removing sin.
The Old Testament talks about the messiah. When the messiah came, he didn’t meet some people’s expectations. He wasn’t sent to satisfy human expectations though.
Scripture says he would be rejected and that he was.
Many people still reject him to this day.
When he returns, he will find many are also not prepared to meet him.
They will have no oil in their lamp. Any attempt to fix things at this point will not be enough.
Do not continue to reject the messiah.
One day you will knock and the door will not be opened to you because that season will have ended.
Are you numbered with the redeemed?
Me: It is a good argument. But Paul clearly specifies a leading role to Jesus in God’s creation process which is not supported in the Hebrew Bible. I wonder why it was necessary to include Jesus in creation of the world where God alone was the sole author and source and without any agent.
Think about it. There is God. He is alone. There is no other God before him.
He creates life. Who was the first to be given life?
Surely that life would be blessed. A kind of first-born of all creation.
Is it feasible that God created all things for this first life?
After all, a husband would give his wife the world if he loved her that much.
Jesus did not create the world. But because of him, all things were created.
He is the reason.
That is why he is our head and his head is God.
It is also feasible that since God created all things through him, that all things would also be redeemed through him.
If you do not believe that the son of God is the first-born of all creation, then who exactly do you believe was the first to have life beside God?
If you do not know, then you cannot say it is not Jesus Christ the son of teh living God can you?
Proclaimer…..Here is what, I believe you and others fail to understand , Jesus as a “prototype”, of , what God had in mind for his whole human creation, from the beginning even before he ever created anything that exists. That is what the Greek word “dia” is referring to, “not that”, Jesus was actually there when God created everything, but that is what God had I mind for his creation in the beginning before he ever started this creation.
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Hi Proclaimer,
You: Think about it. There is God. He is alone. There is no other God before him.
He creates life. Who was the first to be given life?
Surely that life would be blessed. A kind of first-born of all creation.
Is it feasible that God created all things for this first life?
Me: So you think God created Jesus first of all and later he created everything else for Jesus?
This is a wild guess by the NT writers and Christianity for which there is no support in the Hebrew scriptures unless they twist them. Even a trinitarian can not support this idea.
You: It is also feasible that since God created all things through him, that all things would also be redeemed through him.
If you do not believe that the son of God is the first-born of all creation, then who exactly do you believe was the first to have life beside God?
Me: I don’t find any Hebrew scripture for supporting the argument that God created all things through Jesus unless the scriptures twisted from their original meaning and context.
Yes I don’t find any scripture in Hebrew Bible that support that Jesus was the first-born of all creation and I even don’t find any one first have life beside God as quoted by you except that God created every living thing by himself.
Thank you…..Adam
Hi Proclaimer,
You: The Old Testament talks about the messiah. When the messiah came, he didn’t meet some people’s expectations. He wasn’t sent to satisfy human expectations though.
Scripture says he would be rejected and that he was.
Many people still reject him to this day.
When he returns, he will find many are also not prepared to meet him.
Me: I think the quote of yours is not meant for this thread. I know that the NT contains many defensive terminology against rejection of Jesus as Messiah or God’s begotten son and so on. That is purely the interpretation of the NT writers. We don’t have original sayings of historical Jesus even as per NT scholars.
So please don’t use defensive mechanism to support your views. We are only debating validity of the NT scriptures with respect to their original source from which these writers developed their Christology.
Thank you….Adam
Proclaimer…..Here is what, I believe you and others fail to understand , Jesus as a “prototype”, of , what God had in mind for his whole human creation, from the beginning even before he ever created anything that exists. That is what the Greek word “dia” is referring to, “not that”, Jesus was actually there when God created everything, but that is what God had I mind for his creation in the beginning before he ever started this creation.
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Since when is there a prototype that comes after the products? Prototypes are the first and then production takes place after that.
Besides that self-evident truth is this question for you to answer.
Who was the first to be with God. If not the Son and Image of God himself, then who?
Because that being would be more privileged than any other.
You cannot answer this because you have rejected the Son as that person. You have rejected the one who is named, ‘The Word of God’ as that person. from your perspective, it could well be some random guy called Bruce.
Your doctrine doesn’t add up at all.
So please don’t use defensive mechanism to support your views. We are only debating validity of the NT scriptures with respect to their original source from which these writers developed their Christology.
You have been given that already. The messiah would suffer and bring salvation as well as reign as king. Men are impatient and look for the latter only. But God is not a man and God is patient. He is eternal. A thousand years is as a day to him. The reason men want Isaiah 53 to be about Israel and not the messiah is because they would then need to acknowledge that Jesus is the messiah. It is not called the forbidden chapter for nothing.
gadam, you are free to reject Jesus as the messiah. Your choice. Your will.
Hi proclaimer,
You:
You have been given that already. The messiah would suffer and bring salvation as well as reign as king. Men are impatient and look for the latter only. But God is not a man and God is patient. He is eternal. A thousand years is as a day to him. The reason men want Isaiah 53 to be about Israel and not the messiah is because they would then need to acknowledge that Jesus is the messiah. It is not called the forbidden chapter for nothing.
Me: You can give me any title as you wish but I am here for displaying the truth and not any lies. I have already replied to you on the other thread on the suffering Messiah and also the Video link you have posted on Isaiah 53 from a Trinitarian website whose aim is to convert the Jews to Jesus.
Regarding “thousand years” is another cover up by the pseudo writer of the 2 Peter to answer the sceptics of his time (second Christian century) because the so called Parousia of Jesus was not visible in the near future.
Proclaimer….Jesus was the finished ‘prototype’ of God the fathers human creation the “finished” product for all his “human” creation. We are all in a developing process, And Jesus is the first human being to achieve that Goal, which God had in mind for his whole human creation in the beginning, remember, Jesus said “you must be born again”. Just like he was after his baptism, when the Holy Spirit descended on him and remained on him, he then became the “second” Adam. The first new creation of mankind, who has God’s Holy Spirit guiding him continually for ever.
But remember he is just the “first born” of “many” brethren “. So your idea of Jesus not being the first “pro-type ” of a new completed creation of mankind, is as wrong as your idea God created everything “through” or by, Jesus, which is also another false teaching of your and others.Sorry Proclaimer but like said before, you seem to me to be half way in and half way out, but I do believe you believe in Jesus the quest is which Jesus you believe in?
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Proclaimer….Jesus was the finished ‘prototype’ of God the fathers human creation the “finished” product for all his “human” creation. We are all in a developing process, And Jesus is the first human being to achieve that Goal, which God had in mind for his whole human creation in the beginning, remember, Jesus said “you must be born again”. Just like he was after his baptism, when the Holy Spirit descended on him and remained on him, he then became the “second” Adam. The first new creation of mankind, who has God’s Holy Spirit guiding him continually for ever.
But remember he is just the “first born” of “many” brethren “. So your idea of Jesus not being the first “pro-type ” of a new completed creation of mankind, is as wrong as your idea God created everything “through” or by, Jesus, which is also another false teaching of your and others.Sorry Proclaimer but like said before, you seem to me to be half way in and half way out, but I do believe you believe in Jesus the quest is which Jesus you believe in?
Hello brother Gene, the above is the excellent post of yours proves yours convictions and beliefs.
Gene
You preach THE LIE….
GOD CREATED ALL THINGS BY JESUS CHRIST
THIS IS THE TRUTH
THE BIG TRUTH
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Berean……….It’s interesting how you people see the words ‘Jesus’ written there when it’s not really there, but then again you people put all kinds of words in our scriptures and even contradict Jesus’ very own written words like when he said this in prayer to God the Father, “that they might know you “THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD”, AND the scripture that says , “but unto us the is “ONE GOD”, and one mediator between men and God, the “MAN” Jesus Christ “.
Tell us are those scriptures not even in your bibles, or, do you and your arrogant fellow believers think you can add or subtract from what is actually written in our scriptures any time you feel you can, and just ignore some, anytime you people like? It’s no wonder, your so confused, you don’t really have the love for truth, you had rather believe, the lies of those who teach you. “2Ths2”
Berean, you say I preach ‘lies” please show them, give us your proof, constantly accusing me of something but show no proof actually shows us how much a LIAR or IGNORANT person , you really are, of what scriptures actually say. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
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