Determinism

[GeneBalthrop]

terraraicca……….”NO MAN (CAN) COME UNTO ME (EXCEPT) THE FATHER (DRAW) HIM”. Jesus said to his disciples “you have not chosen me but i have chose you”. They were preselected by GOD and Jesus from the start, Jesus even know one was a devil from the start.This should be sufficient to answer the question, on who choose who and how we are saved. No where is the word (FREE WILLS) mentioned in scripture is is a invention of the EGO'S of men. IMO

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……… I have explained it many times here, but i will again, Take the word (FREE) by it self and what does that mean, it means not subject to (ANY) influences what so ever, of the self (internal) of outside the self (external). absolutely (NO) Influence. A WILL can not exist in that realm, it must exist in an influenced condition in order for it to be a WILL, rather GOD or man. Your and My WILLS will alway chose what is (INFLUENCING) it the MOST. So will GOD (“for God does all things after the council of His OWN WILL, so do we. There is nothing free about it. Well are all held captive by our will, rather it be of the CARNAL Flesh or of the SPIRIT of GOD. “HE (WORKS) (IN) US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE”. It is just that simple, IMO.

[terraricca]

hi gene

example of the aposteles bad example they were only 12 did he also choose the other 58 =70
and later did he choose the 3000 + 5000 and us ?

as for your comment “God draws them” i see this as the other way around if you draw the thing of God .in other words,if you are interested by the things that God as to offer to you.
this way it make the scriptures more truthfull wen it says” they worship me with their lips but their heart is not..”wen you draw the things of God your heart is in it .

[kerwin]

Gene wrote:

Quote

Take the word (FREE) by it self and what does that mean, it means not subject to (ANY) influences what so ever, of the self (internal) of outside the self (external). absolutely (NO) Influence.

I am going to say that is an impossible state to achieve unless one believes that any choice is completely random in which case there is no accountability.   I am also not sure that there are a significant number of individuals who believe in random choice.

I believe that humans make their choices internally based on environmental events and using their intellect, knowledge and emotions to weigh their options.  Since the factors they use can be manipulated by external sources their choices can also be manipulated but they are fully accountable for the motivation behind their choice.   That is what I call “free” choice or “individual” choice.

In short we may just be defining “free will” in different ways but otherwise be in agreement.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin…..Exactly Right…….that is why you do (NOT) see the term (FREE WILL) in scripture, because there is no such thing as (FREE WILLS), there is only (INFLUENCED) WILLS, and these are what (CAUSES) our Choices, rather it be GOD or MAN. GRACE (Gods influencing on the heart) Works to produce (CAUSE) Which changes our thinking and produces the FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, Man can not do that on his own he can not change himself, therefore GOD (CAUSES) it to happen in our lives by His (INFLUENCING) on our hearts and minds. WE are a (NEW) CREATION being Created NEW, by a regeneration or Transforming in our Minds through the GRACE of GOD. IMO

[GeneBalthrop]

terraricca………….Jesus did not say only a few he chose, he said (NO) Man can COME unto ME UNLESS the FATHER (DRAW) HIM> No Man means no one. IMO

[terraricca]

gene
if you are right in your interpretation then we have to take in account what Jesus said wen he will be resurrected he will draw all men to him;
now assuming this is true ;then all men because the are draw to Christ they will be judged because there refusal to accept Christ,and saved if they accept.
secondly;then also the judgment take place now because of the draw who pull you toward Christ if your works are to follow the devil you will pay your wickedness according to what Paul say;what a man sows is what he reaps;
and then the second resurrection only apply to those who never were drawn to Christ.

what you think???

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 12 2010,21:11)

Kerwin…..Exactly Right…….that is why you do (NOT) see the term (FREE WILL) in scripture, because there is no such thing as (FREE WILLS), there is only (INFLUENCED) WILLS, and these are what (CAUSES) our Choices,  rather it be GOD or MAN. GRACE (Gods influencing on the heart) Works to produce (CAUSE) Which changes our thinking and produces the FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT,  Man can not do that on his own he can not change himself, therefore GOD (CAUSES) it to happen in our lives by His (INFLUENCING) on our hearts and minds. WE are a (NEW) CREATION being Created NEW, by a regeneration or Transforming in our Minds through the GRACE of GOD. IMO

Gene,

Personally, I believe you are being too strict on your definition of free will. I think it is wiser to find out the definition others use as it can vary significantly from what I have heard.

[terraricca]

hi
Jas 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

is this verse shows draw from God or drawned to the things of God..???

[GeneBalthrop]

terraricca……….Not sure what you are driving at there, But we must believe what Jesus said and He did say, (NO) man (CAN) come unto me unless the FATHER (DRAW) HIM. remember when Jesus as Peter who he was and Peter said you are the Christ the son of the Living GOD, Jesus responded , “Blessed are you Simon Bar Joana, Because flesh and Blood Have (NOT) Revealed that unto you BUT the FATHER who is in Heaven has revealed it unto you, and I say unto your are Peter and upon the (ROCK)”, (GOD'S POWER to reveal the truth into the minds of Man) “I shall build the church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.

[terraricca]

gene
you preach what you do not understand ,you say that you walk by the spirit but you can not understand what i tell you .
to me God use what you have in the case of Peter he was a Jew so not ignorant about the scriptures and about the God of Israel ,because of is true faith in Christ and in God messiah God made him understand what he already had but mix,but is faith in Christ was his rock.

[GeneBalthrop]

terraricca……….That is not what Jesus said , He said to Peter who do you say i am. Peter said He was the son of GOD, Jesus (who was flesh and blood) said flesh and blood did (NOT) reveal that unto him. But his FATHER WHO WAS IN (HEAVEN) HAD REVEALED IT TO HIM. Your argument is with Jesus then not with Me. God the Father is the (ONLY) TRUE ROCK. IMO

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

Can you please address Gene's point that no one can come to Jesus unless God draws them. I have my own thoughts on the matter which are based on Matthew 5:6. Thank you!

[terraricca]

hi gene
gene
if you are right in your interpretation then we have to take in account what Jesus said wen he will be resurrected he w
Group: Members
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Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Jan. 14 2010,03:14

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ill draw all men to him;
now assuming this is true ;then all men because the are draw to Christ they will be judged because there refusal to accept Christ,and saved if they accept.
secondly;then also the judgment take place now because of the draw who pull you toward Christ if your works are to follow the devil you will pay your wickedness according to what Paul say;what a man sows is what he reaps;
and then the second resurrection only apply to those who never were drawn to Christ.

what you think???

and also this;
hi
Jas 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

is this verse shows draw from God or drawned to the things of God..???

could you respond to this first

[terraricca]

hi gene
if this is your respond to my argument i don't understand your logic

[terraricca]

hi gene
i meant this

Group: Regular Members
Posts: 2806
Joined: Feb. 2009 Posted: Jan. 14 2010,16:13

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terraricca……….That is not what Jesus said , He said to Peter who do you say i am. Peter said He was the son of GOD, Jesus (who was flesh and blood) said flesh and blood did (NOT) reveal that unto him. But his FATHER WHO WAS IN (HEAVEN) HAD REVEALED IT TO HIM. Your argument is with Jesus then not with Me. God the Father is the (ONLY) TRUE ROCK. IMO

[GeneBalthrop]

terraricca………..I take what Jesus said as true , “(NO) man (CAN) come unto ME (UNLESS) GOD, THE FATHER (DRAW) HIM”. This scripture is clear and easily understood, no need to change it to meet anyones personal logic. look up the word (draw) in the GREEK you will find it means (DRAG). Give GOD the GLORY of (ALL) SALVATION of (ALL) HIS CREATION>  GOD the FATHER is the (ONLY) TRUE ROCK brother.  IMO

[terraricca]

gene

you do not answer my question
you just take a piece of verse and quote it, i see you have no difficulty to express your self so please answer my question on “draw”

[GeneBalthrop]

Terraricca………What is it you want to know about the word DRAW, i have explained it, in GREEK it's DRAG. What other question do you have , I have quoted the Scripture completely, and is that is not good enough, Whats your question?

[terraricca]

hi gene

DRAW goes two ways that is my point ,and it seems you did not understand it ,
this is why you did not understand what i try to say to you,
you are one sided viewer.

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