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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 20 2008,13:57) Nick…..So much for you posted confusion to try to support you theology but, Jesus plainly said the FATHER WAS IN HIM, Please explain how was He In HIM if Not by his spirit. What i said was right it was the spirit of God in Jesus or the Anointing that was in Him was God's Spirit. And if that (SAME) Spirit be in us (IT) will Quicken our mortal bodies, Just like it says. Thsi is simple to understand and all true Christians should know that. When ever we see the Word Christ we should realize it means (the Anointed) or Christos, Jesus.IMO peace……….gene
Hi GB,
God was in him as Spirit.But the scriptures he quoted were what he had studied and learned. He had eaten of the bread of life such that he could astound the teachers at the age of 12.
The Spirit has the role of REMINDING us of what is written. Unless we take responsibilty for studying the Word in an attitude of respect and submission to it as truth then we cannot expect help from God in understanding it.
Quote to say the Spirit is not the mind is to say the spirit produces no intellect and then would be worthless to anyone. –gb
The spirit is not the mind.
The mind is the mind. That's why we have that word…”mind.”
That's not to say that the spirit cannot help the mind. For example,
JOHN 14:26
“But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.”The holy spirit will “bring back to your minds” (or, help you remember) all that Jesus told them.
So, the holy spirit is not the mind. But it can act with the mind. It can act with the heart, as well.GB, I'm wondering if you could insert more scriptures into your thoughts. Sometimes you partially quote a scripture, but I may have trouble finding it.
Quote But the scriptures he quoted were what he had studied and learned. He had eaten of the bread of life such that he could astound the teachers at the age of 12. The Spirit has the role of REMINDING us of what is written. Unless we take responsibilty for studying the Word in an attitude of respect and submission to it as truth then we cannot expect help from God in understanding it.
What Nick said.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 07 2010,12:15) For KW
As I stated elsewhere I am not a hard determinist or a libertarian. Both ideologies are rather absurd as libertarianism contradicts itself while hard determinism accuses God of sinning.Gene surprises me though since he has libertarian leaning and then embraces hard determinism. That is an internal conflict I not sure how he resolves.
Nick………But you say the spirit is not intellect , so how can it remind of of anything. It has nothing to do with the intellect according to you right? The Spirit is the intellect of GOD being feed into our minds and it does control our thinking and it is the mind of GOD being put into us, by the SPIRIT of GOD, IMO.
David……..You said the spirit of God is not the mind of God right?,
Phi 2:5 (Let) this (MIND) be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the SPIRIT (intellect) of YOUR MIND
2Ti 1:7 For God has not given us the Spirit (intellect) of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Heb 8: 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord ; I will put my law into the (MIND), and write them (IN) their hearts: and i will be to them a GOD and they Shall be to me a people.
I have said the Spirit is the (INTELLECT) of the MIND (our reasoning center) If it is of the world then our thinking and reasoning is of the World, If it is of GOD then our thinking and reasoning is of GOD. or GODLY. IMO
G,
We must aspire to the mind of Christ once we are united with him in the Spirit.
The letters of Paul were written to those already united with him in the Spirit.
The mind of Christ is according to the Word of God and the Spirit teaches us.So the Spirit is not the mind.
Nick……I am (NOT) saying the SPIRIT is the MIND, it is what is (IN) the mind, it's INTELLECT. That gives the mind reason and understanding. If our minds are being effect by GOD Spirit it's intellect is being Changes to Aline with GOD'S Thinking. The Spirit is the intellect that is (IN) the mind.
Nick…..Show scripture where it says (WE MUST) aspire to the mind of Christ, Where is God the FATHERS part in your picture. Again you exclude God in your planned Self salvation. He seem to have little or no part with you, Just your own Choices right? Good luck your going to need it. You are being saved by (YOUR) WORKS , not by the GRACE of GOD it Appears. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 09 2010,04:58) Kerwin………..Please show when i have ever accused GOD of SINNING.
If man is not accountable for his actions then God is accountable for the actions of man and thus when man sins God sins.Choosenone appears to be in denial on that issue, sadly being in denial is rather common for man.
Getting over that denial is when we can start getting closer to God in truth.
To all,
Determinism is important to our faith in God as whatever happens we must trust that God is in control. That is where the flaw in the libertarian mindset comes as they seem to wish to wrest control from God and place it in their own hands. They are correct that we are responsible for our own choices but it is God who determines the outcome. Even then we should be careful not to blame God for the result of our choices because though God will use bad results for his good we intended evil. For example the wife of a murdered man may as a result of his murder decide to go into law and become a prosecutor who successfully prosecutes many cases against wrongdoers but never less the murderer is still guilty of sin and the murder of a man is abhorrent.
The Hard Determinist go too far for they want to blame men even for the plans of a man’s heart. Because of that they accuse God of sinning. Instead each human is accountable for his own actions and so God is just to judge them according to those actions.
Matthew 10:29(NIV) reads:
Quote Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
God is certainly determining the fate of each and every sparrow according to Jesus. Jesus certainly has no problem relating that to the fate of his hearers. That makes Jesus a determinist.
Matthew 10:32-33(NIV) reads:
Quote “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
In this scripture we find Jesus informing his students that he will hold them accountable for what they choose. That is “free will” or what is what I prefer calling “individual will”.
From this example it is apparent Jesus does not see a contradiction between the two.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 15 2008,15:04) Hi,
GB has indicated be believes in this popular idea.
Should we?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04756c.htm
http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/text/determin.htm
http://www.skepdic.com/determinism.html – 9k
NickYou must be running out of subjects.
Why not resurrect some of the old once?Georg
Kerwin…….I disagree with your assumptions that GOD sins if he takes full responsibility. And GOD does take full responsibility for his creation, and is in full control of it also. He uses Evil as a teaching tool and punishes us for our good. If we say GOD (truly) Know the end from the beginning, as scripture says, then He also knows our fates, and also knew man would fail from the start, and to try to strip his power away from him by saying He does not effect his control over us is nonsense. Also to try to use scripture where Jesus said he would hold his students accountable to try to support (FREE WILL) Doctrine is a false. Because we are held accountable for our action has nothing to do with those actions being of a FREE WILL, but of a (INFLUENCED WILLS) Nothing FREE About it. Using words as libertarian or Deterministic produce no proof in what you are trying to say. IMO
hi gene
you never explain what you belive is or what is your version of free will ??
I have told you to me free will apply s to the choice we have to sin or not to sin ,do not obey or to obey.
as for God suppot for this ;Isa 5:18 Woe to those who draw sin along with cords of deceitIsa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.Isa 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sightIsa 5:22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
and champions at mixing drinks,
Isa 5:23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent.Jer 29:19 For they have not listened to my words,” declares the LORD, “words that I sent to them again and again by my servants the prophets. And you exiles have not listened either,” declares the LORD.
Jer 29:32 this is what the LORD says: I will surely punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite and his descendants. He will have no one left among this people, nor will he see the good things I will do for my people, declares the LORD, because he has preached rebellion against me.’
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 09 2010,22:08) Kerwin…….I disagree with your assumptions that GOD sins if he takes full responsibility. And GOD does take full responsibility for his creation, and is in full control of it also. He uses Evil as a teaching tool and punishes us for our good. If we say GOD (truly) Know the end from the beginning, as scripture says, then He also knows our fates, and also knew man would fail from the start, and to try to strip his power away from him by saying He does not effect his control over us is nonsense. Also to try to use scripture where Jesus said he would hold his students accountable to try to support (FREE WILL) Doctrine is a false. Because we are held accountable for our action has nothing to do with those actions being of a FREE WILL, but of a (INFLUENCED WILLS) Nothing FREE About it. Using words as libertarian or Deterministic produce no proof in what you are trying to say. IMO
Gene,So according to you God makes us perform an action and then punishes us for that action. Do you really consider that just?
That is like a parent commanding his child to stand in the road and then punishing him for standing in the road.
That would be abuse.
I believe you have difficulty understanding how both determinism and individual will can coexist. The way it is possible is because God is both all knowing and all powerful.
Kerwin……..I never said God makes us perform and then punishes us for that action, nor have i even imply it. Then you give a scenario about that, which i have never said. Look GOD Knows all things from the start to the finish. He has (Allowed) man to make his own choices, and suffer the consequences of them to teach us, but those Choices are far from so-called “FREE WILL” Choices , they are choices of influences that are in us. God does not have to “MAKE” us perform anything , But to say He does not influence us to Choose what is right by His Holy SPirit in simply not true. “FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND THAT (NOT) OF OUR SELVES, IT IS A GIFT OF GOD”, YOU EITHER BELIEVE THAT OR NOT ITS JUST THAT SIMPLE. “FOR WE ARE (CREATED) UNTO GOOD WORKS WHICH GOD HAS PREPARED BEFOREHAND”. 'FOR HE WORKS (IN) US (BOTH) TO WILL AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE”, i REALIZE THE CARNAL MIND HATES THESE SCRIPTURES , But they are there and we need to consider them in our views.. IMO
hi gene
no gene God give the grace but if you don't wanted you do not receive it,
you read the scriptures addressed to those who are saved because they have accepted Christ ransom for there sin,and have stop to produce the fruits of the flesh but now produce the fruits of the spirit,
this fruits (spirit ) lead to everlasting live and the GRACE of God is given to them.
wen the word was spoken to them they have made there decision to follow the way of Christ,
and that lead to the Grace of God and the Grace of God lead to everlasting live.Quote (Gene @ Jan. 10 2010,09:29) Kerwin……..I never said God makes us perform and then punishes us for that action, nor have i even imply it. Then you give a scenario about that, which i have never said. Look GOD Knows all things from the start to the finish. He has (Allowed) man to make his own choices, and suffer the consequences of them to teach us, but those Choices are far from so-called “FREE WILL” Choices , they are choices of influences that are in us. God does not have to “MAKE” us perform anything , But to say He does not influence us to Choose what is right by His Holy SPirit in simply not true. “FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND THAT (NOT) OF OUR SELVES, IT IS A GIFT OF GOD”, YOU EITHER BELIEVE THAT OR NOT ITS JUST THAT SIMPLE. “FOR WE ARE (CREATED) UNTO GOOD WORKS WHICH GOD HAS PREPARED BEFOREHAND”. 'FOR HE WORKS (IN) US (BOTH) TO WILL AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE”, i REALIZE THE CARNAL MIND HATES THESE SCRIPTURES , But they are there and we need to consider them in our views.. IMO
Gene,Could you please define what you believe “free choice” is? Thank you!
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