Defining and setting the terms

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2010,18:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2010,12:42) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2010,11:46) Nope! Jesus said, “TODAY you will be with me in paradise.” Really Jack? There is no punctuation in the Greek.  The words say: amen to you I am saying today with me you will be in the paradise Yet you are CONFIDENT it has to be rendered YOUR way.  That's a trinitarian for you. mike And this means that “today” does not mean “today” how? the Roo

You're not really that slow, are you?

It could be: Today I'm telling you that you will (someday) be with me in paradise.

OR…….

I'm telling you that TODAY you will be with me in paradise.

Now explain to me why it HAS to be YOUR way?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Jack,

You said:

Quote

The Sadducees believed that the souls of men die with the body just as Mike and JA believe. I asked Mike to google “the Sadducees” and for some reason he was afraid to do it. So I must do his homework for him-again.

Is that what really happened?  Or did I just ask you a simple question about where you got your info on the Sadducees?

Then you said:

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According to Jesus if Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had ceased to exist as our Sadducee friends Mike and JA say, then God could not have STILL been their God for He is the God only of the LIVING. Just as Jesus told the Sadducees they were “greatly mistaken” so WJ and I tell Mike and JA that they are “greatly mistaken.”

But what I actually posted was this:

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WJ, I believe that a very few went right from existence in flesh straight to spiritual existence in heaven. Jesus says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were three of them.  The fact that Moses and Elijah talked to Jesus at the transfiguration says they were included, IMO.   And Jesus says some of his apostles would not taste death…..so I believe that means at least two of them went right from here to heaven. But I think they are few and far between, and Jesus wasn't one of those, for he had to die to accomplish what he came to accomplish.  And if he wasn't raised from a “real” death like us, then where is the promise?

And then to back up my belief that Jesus wasn't one of those who went right from flesh to heaven, I posted these scriptures:

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Compare this scripture….. Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” …..with this one, ]Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Some of Jesus' disciples did not have to “taste death”, but Jesus did.

But neither of you responded to it.

I told you that the spirit returns to the One who gave it.  And I quoted scripture that says so.  Then I posted this:

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This is the simple point of it all: Whatever happened to Jesus' spirit is the SAME thing that happens to everyone's spirit.  So if Jesus didn't “completely” die, then neither has anyone else ever. Unless perhaps you can show from scripture where something different happened to Jesus' spirit than what happens to the rest of mankinds'? CAN YOU?

But again, neither of you answered me.  I quoted Solomon about death:

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Solomon, the wisest man ever until Jesus, said, 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. What do you take that to mean?

But WJ gives the words of some “scholar” who agrees with his view, as he often does. (Although not as much as Jack)  And Jack's answer tries to explain that the one whom God made the wisest man in the world was confused.

So, here we are.  Is the spirit the same as the soul? NO, so stop interchanging the two words in scripture.  

Does the spirit go back to God?  

Where does the soul go?  What does scripture say about that?  

And when will you guys answer my question about whether scripture implies something different happened to Jesus when he died compared to anyone else?

Also, answer the scriptures that say Jesus tasted death, while some of the disciples would not have to.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Hi WJ,

You said:

Quote

Why do you always look for scriptures to contradict Jesus words or the scriptures in the NT that prove that our Spirits leave this flesh tent and are still alive and conscious?

Which scripture says what you just implied?

Your source said:

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But the dead know not any thing “Cut off from life, they know nothing of what passes under the sun. Their day of probation is ended, and therefore they can have no farther reward in living a holy life; nor can they be liable to any farther punishment for crimes in a state of probation, that being ended

 

Hmm…..I wonder why Solomon suggests they do not have love, hate or jealousy anymore?

Your source:

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“I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held;

But we already know that at least three men went right to heaven.  And Jesus said there would be at least two more based on his words “some of you here”.  Could we not then assume that ones who are killed by men just for there refusal to deny Christ might be taken right up to heaven as a reward?

The problem lies where you then start asssuming “all good men go to heaven when they die”.  This is NOT scriptural, and this kind of thinking has slowly been gaining headway the longer we get from Christ's days on earth.  More and more churches, having grown tired of waiting so long for Jesus' second coming, have adapted the “when you die, you go to heaven” teaching.  I've got info on it if you're interested.

You asked:

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So did Jesus use false concepts to teach a spiritual truth in the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus or not?

I think he used “fantasy” concepts sometimes.  How can a camel pass through the eye of a needle?  Should we really cut one eye out of our head if it causes us to sin?  Can just one eye cause someone to sin when both eyes see the same thing?  

But if you add that parable to Saul raising Samuel through a fortune teller, it makes you think about it.

Again, the bottom line is this:  Scripture never says Jesus died in any way different than anyone else dies.  So if Jesus' spirit and soul lived on, then so does everyone elses.  And that is not scriptural.  Most of us will have to “taste death” like Jesus did.  Either way, he DIED just like we die.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2010,06:13)

Keith, They think that by their annihilationist doctrine they will escape judgment. The fear of judgment is the unconscious reason for their saying that souls cease to exist. They are unconsciously saying, “God can't judge me personally because I will cease forever. So God will transfer my memory into a newly created spirit that will take my place in the judgment.” Nope! Judgment will come to those who actually performed unrighteous acts. Therefore, they must remain for judgment. Jack

Food for thought for the two of you who are apparently starving!  

Condition of Human Dead. The dead are shown to be “conscious of nothing at all” and the death state to be one of complete inactivity. (Ec 9:5, 10; Ps 146:4) Those dying are described as going into “the dust of death” (Ps 22:15), becoming “impotent in death.” (Pr 2:18; Isa 26:14) In death there is no mention of God or any praising of him. (Ps 6:5; Isa 38:18, 19) In both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures, death is likened to sleep, a fitting comparison not only because of the unconscious condition of the dead but also because of the hope of an awakening through the resurrection. (Ps 13:3; Joh 11:11-14) The resurrected Jesus is spoken of as “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.”—1Co 15:20, 21; see HADES; SHEOL.

Whereas the ancient Egyptians and other peoples of pagan nations, and particularly the Grecian philosophers, were strong in their belief in the deathlessness of the human soul, both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures speak of the soul (Heb., ne′phesh; Gr., psy‧khe′) as dying (Jg 16:30; Eze 18:4, 20; Re 16:3), needing deliverance from death (Jos 2:13; Ps 33:19; 56:13; 116:8; Jas 5:20), or as in the Messianic prophecy concerning Jesus Christ, being “poured out . . . to the very death” (Isa 53:12; compare Mt 26:38). The prophet Ezekiel condemns those who connived “to put to death the souls that ought not to die” and “to preserve alive the souls that ought not to live.”—Eze 13:19; see SOUL.

Thus, The Interpreter’s Bible (Vol. II, p. 1015), commenting on 1 Samuel 25:29, observes that “the idea of man as consisting of body and soul which are separated at death is not Hebrew but Greek.” (Edited by G. Buttrick, 1953) Similarly, Edmond Jacob, Professor of Old Testament at the University of Strasbourg, points out that, since in the Hebrew Scriptures one’s life is directly related with the soul (Heb., ne′phesh), “it is natural that death should sometimes be represented as the disappearance of this nephesh (Gen. 35:18; I Kings 17:21; Jer. 15:9; Jonah 4:3). The ‘departure’ of the nephesh must be viewed as a figure of speech, for it does not continue to exist independently of the body, but dies with it (Num. 31:19; Judg. 16:30; Ezek. 13:19). No biblical text authorizes the statement that the ‘soul’ is separated from the body at the moment of death.”—The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, edited by G. Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 1, p. 802.

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

headache…. Heacache JALFJDLSKAJFLASKFJAS

Mike and KJ sitting in a tree,
D-E-B-A-T-I-N-G

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 02 2010,21:02)

headache…. Heacache JALFJDLSKAJFLASKFJAS Mike and KJ sitting in a tree, D-E-B-A-T-I-N-G

And why is it YOU come to this site, Dennison?

I come to discuss scripture.

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,09:08)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 02 2010,21:02) headache…. Heacache JALFJDLSKAJFLASKFJAS Mike and KJ sitting in a tree, D-E-B-A-T-I-N-G And why is it YOU come to this site, Dennison? I come to discuss scripture. mike

Mike,
Stop being just a prude, im was trying to be humerous.

Good question, i orginally to understand, learn, and help to end hatred or any wrong ya do to eachother.
To help end debate, by offerring a way to finaly get to the point and agree or disagree.

but my focus was to come togethor and love eachother, as we should, and agree in at least one concept, which is love.

Becuase agreeing is a powerful thing,

because where there are two who are in agreement is a powerful thing.
Matthew 18:19

But im starting to see that we disagree on everything, and which cannot be so.

for When two or three come in HIS name, he will be there in the midst of them,

I believe this,
I believe this can be done,
IF only we can agree,

Dennison

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:02)

But im starting to see that we disagree on everything

Yeah, but that's only because I agree with scripture!

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2010,07:51)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:02) But im starting to see that we disagree on everything Yeah, but that's only because I agree with scripture!   mike

lol u humor me

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