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Jack,
The 'Soul, or the Spirit' went to Sheol. Which was it, jack.
Jesus said, 'Father, receive my Spirit', or, 'into thy hands i commit my spirit'. Where is that saying that Jesus' Spirit went to Sheol?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2010,11:21) Mike Just cut out many scriptures like you usually do. Whats the difference in the Soul or Spirit, can you tell? Or is it that only the Word of God can separate the two? Heb 4:12
That’s right, you don't believe in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus but make Jesus words of none affect, again.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22,23
Why would Jesus tell this story this way if he didn't believe what he is saying as truth and parallels reality? Would Jesus tell us a story that is apposed to reality?
WJ
Really WJ?Why did Jesus tell the parable about the weeds? Is this earth literally full of human “weeds” and “wheat”? Is that what humans are literally?
It was a parable, man.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2010,11:26) Mikeboll said: Quote All formerly dead will have to be given back their spirit including their memories, 
A spirit that ceases to exist is gone forever. Therefore, this memory “transfer” would be given to a totally new and different spirit that God would have to create. This newly created spirit would have the memory of my suffering without the history of my suffering. But it is those who ACTUALLY have the history of suffering that God will reward. God could not destroy a man's spirit if He is going to reward it.
Mike's memory transfer idea is ludicrous!
the Roo
More ridicules…..how mature of you Jack. And then you proceed to post YOUR opinion, as if it is somehow more valid than mine.
This is the simple point of it all:
Whatever happened to Jesus' spirit is the SAME thing that happens to everyone's spirit. So if Jesus didn't “completely” die, then neither has anyone else ever.
Unless perhaps you can show from scripture where something different happened to Jesus' spirit than what happens to the rest of mankinds'?
CAN YOU?
mike
The story of the rich man and the beggar has nothing to do with being in the grave or in heaven…what's with you guys?
It is about doing good while you can.
Tnat's why it's a rich man….and a poor man.
The rich are meant to share their wealth, either directly, or by doing good with it for the poor.
The poor are meant to not be greedy and steal, defraud, or be slovenly in their plight.
The short parable only highlighted that the rich man didn't share his wealth and metaphorically went to hell where he metaphorically tried to warn others not to do as he did but that it was futile…because the dead cant't talk…and even if they could, whowould listen to them, if those same don't even listen to the living…No one goes to 'heaven', 'hell', 'paradise' or 'destruction', until after the judgement. So ho could the rich man be warning anyone if thr judgement had already taken place.
Why did the poor man go to Abraham's bosom. Is Abraham in 'Heaven'?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,20:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2010,11:21) Mike Just cut out many scriptures like you usually do. Whats the difference in the Soul or Spirit, can you tell? Or is it that only the Word of God can separate the two? Heb 4:12
That’s right, you don't believe in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus but make Jesus words of none affect, again.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22,23
Why would Jesus tell this story this way if he didn't believe what he is saying as truth and parallels reality? Would Jesus tell us a story that is apposed to reality?
WJ
Really WJ?Why did Jesus tell the parable about the weeds? Is this earth literally full of human “weeds” and “wheat”? Is that what humans are literally?
It was a parable, man.
mike
Humans are like weeds when the harvest comes Mike.Do you see the parrallel to reality?
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ July 28 2010,11:27) WJ and KJ are both fakes. First they pretend to be trinitarians,now that they utterly failed at that they have become 'Disputarians', simply disputing against everyone for no good reason. Sad, so sad.
JA,They started on HN as wolves in sheep's clothing, trying to steal a few of God's sheep by disguise. But then they were discovered by t8, Nick and the other sheep.
Now they no longer disguise themselves. They are laid out naked and embarrassed for all to see. They have no choice left but to do what wolves do – run in a pack.
Have you noticed that they must call each other before going online? Wherever one is posting, the other is sure to follow. They can not take on the likes of us on HN one on one anymore. We are constantly learning, while they just keep spewing the same crap. Now that we're all informed on that crap and have scriptural rebuttals to everything they spew, their only recourse is to travel in a pack and use Jack's famous “hit and run” tactic. WJ has learned it too.
They don't even attempt to answer to scripture anymore. They just run thread to thread insulting and ridiculing, as if somehow that will draw people to the trinity. It's a big joke, man. Do you see what this thread here is supposed to be about? Do you notice that about 4 or 5 pages ago, it turned into the “Mike is an idiot” thread? They can't slap each other's backs and cheerlead in my debates, so they come here to…….I guess try to boost each other's confidence and belittle me at the same time.
You are correct, JA…….Sad, so sad.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ July 27 2010,20:12) No one goes to 'heaven', 'hell', 'paradise' or 'destruction', until after the judgement. So ho could the rich man be warning anyone if thr judgement had already taken place. Why did the poor man go to Abraham's bosom. Is Abraham in 'Heaven'?
JAClose your eyes if you want, but Jesus said…
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luke 16:27
You guys make his word of none effect. Why would Jesus speak in such a way if he is not speaking of a parrallel to reality?
You guys can't answer this can you? Abraham like all the others are with Jesus and the Father.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,20:23) Quote (JustAskin @ July 28 2010,11:27) WJ and KJ are both fakes. First they pretend to be trinitarians,now that they utterly failed at that they have become 'Disputarians', simply disputing against everyone for no good reason. Sad, so sad.
JA,They started on HN as wolves in sheep's clothing, trying to steal a few of God's sheep by disguise. But then they were discovered by t8, Nick and the other sheep.
Now they no longer disguise themselves. They are laid out naked and embarrassed for all to see. They have no choice left but to do what wolves do – run in a pack.
Have you noticed that they must call each other before going online? Wherever one is posting, the other is sure to follow. They can not take on the likes of us on HN one on one anymore. We are constantly learning, while they just keep spewing the same crap. Now that we're all informed on that crap and have scriptural rebuttals to everything they spew, their only recourse is to travel in a pack and use Jack's famous “hit and run” tactic. WJ has learned it too.
They don't even attempt to answer to scripture anymore. They just run thread to thread insulting and ridiculing, as if somehow that will draw people to the trinity. It's a big joke, man. Do you see what this thread here is supposed to be about? Do you notice that about 4 or 5 pages ago, it turned into the “Mike is an idiot” thread? They can't slap each other's backs and cheerlead in my debates, so they come here to…….I guess try to boost each other's confidence and belittle me at the same time.
You are correct, JA…….Sad, so sad.
mike
YepThis is what happens when the light is turned on. They just start making accusations for they have no defence to the truth.
Not at all a new thing, this is what they accused Jesus of in his day.
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2010,11:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2010,11:11) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2010,11:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2010,10:59) As I understand it, the Sadducees simply didn't believe in a ressurection. Where do you find support for your claim, Jack?
Half truth! A half truth is a WHOLE lie! The Sadducees also denied that the spirit continued to exist after death. Their denial of the resurrection was the consequence of their denial that the spirit continued to exist. For that which ceases to exist cannot be raised.In other words, the Sadducees were annihilationists like you and JA. Keith and I are in the company of Jesus and Paul.
the Roo
Where do you find support for your claim, Jack?
mike
Mike,Don't you think you should do a little homework before you spout off? Save yourself some embarassment. Read Josephus. He states that the Sadducees held that the spirit perished with the body (Josephus, Ant., xviii, 1, 4; Wars, ii, 8, 14).
Their denial of the resurrection was the consequence of their denial that the spirit continued to remain. They deduced that something that does remain cannot be resurrected.
Duh! You should have googled “Sadducees” and made sure before embarrassing yourself. You don't because you are not looking for the truth.
the Roo
Jack,Do you see the simple question I asked above? And asking that question, in your “Christian” mind, is apparently call for saying I spoke a “half-truth” and now insulting and ridiculing me? Why?
Thanks for your answer, for I knew it wasn't in scripture. Now the question is……Should we give any more credence to Josephus than we do to Eusebius?
You see, you find yourself in a conundrum here. I would gladly accept Josephus as a secular source of knowledge about the Sadducees, but you won't accept Eusebius' treatment of the words “prototokos pasa ktisis”……..why?
And if you will not accept Eusebius, I reject Josephus and anything he said.
So, find a scriptural source to support your claim, or consider it “heresay”.
mike
Have i noticed?
Mike, i wrote a book about it? Didn't you read it? But nonetheless, if you noticed also then yeah!But then again, i never had much truck with them regarding the Scriptures. Just the futility of their lame arguments… But it is all in tge cause for Scriptural exercising…they provide 'gravity' for honourable and honest truth seekers to work against, keeps us 'grounded in Spiritual pursuit', so to speak.
i just pray that WJ comes ti his senses and stop the game playing before it is too late… For no man knoweth the day nor the hour when he will be called to the feast so let him forever be prepared with his washed robe.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2010,11:46) Nope! Jesus said, “TODAY you will be with me in paradise.”
Really Jack?There is no punctuation in the Greek. The words say:
amen to you I am saying today with me you will be in the paradise
Yet you are CONFIDENT it has to be rendered YOUR way. That's a trinitarian for you.
mike
WJ,
The story is allegorical. It is not factual.
The dead are dead. The deadndo not speak, talk, tell truth, tell lies, work, need Water, food, deficate, marry, have sex, disco, rollerskate, watch movies, go swimming, go to church, learn, teach, argue, drive Lexus', play marbles, listen to their exwivesmotherinlaw (hey, now there's comfort!), fix video recorder tapes, rip off music albums, get drunk, throw up, save money, buy lotto tickets, dress in wierd outfits, singsongs in or out of tune, keeo goldfish, build jacusees, read scriptures, see, hear, touch, feelm smell (well maybe that!) cut their toenails in the living room while watching 'the GodFather' on tv, sleep, get backacke, diabetes, herpes, elephantities, gonnahrea, syphilis, smoke ganja, take pot, pan or lid, talk greek, london english cockney rhyming slang, rob, steal, dust and clean, wash (oof!), play soccer/football, gamble, ….why not…because the soul is dead and it is the soul that requires or desires these things and more…
Moreover, how did the rich man 'see' and why does a dead soul need water. And why is hell hot? What is the point of hell being hot… Is all this couched in the mythology prevelant at the time as per the greeks and the romans?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2010,11:50) Good night! 
Mike, Rebuttal# 8 will come in a couple of days. That last one wore me out so I am taking a break.
Jack
I'm not even breaking a sweat yet.And that was a very underhanded dishonest thing you did in our debate. Our original debate was about “Is Jesus God?”, and as one of the sub-topics, we were going to debate “Elohim means God is plural”. That's what this debate was supposed to be about all along – whether the fact that the Hebrew word “Elohim” is plural means that God is a plural God or not.
You lost miserably on that one, so you have distanced yourself from it and tried to say the debate all along was about whether or not Jesus is God. But you know this current debate was never meant to include the entire trinity arguments – that would encompass hundreds of arguments and thousands of scriptures. It was only supposed to be about “elohim”, as your response to my comment about the word “elohim” in Martian's “Echad and elohim” thread attests:
Quote Mike, You are trespassing our agreement. We are supposed to discuss this under the “Is God Plural” subject in our one on one debate. So I will not give you a full reply here.
You knew all along the “Plural God” debate we're having is supposed to be about “elohim”, not the trinity in general.
That's okay, because I could NEVER lose that debate either…..I have the scriptures on my side. But it was still underhanded and dishonest. You should have been honest once you found out about the other uses of the plural of majesty in the scriptures, and conceded the debate. But whatever……like the good old George Strait song says, “I wouldn't treat a dog the way you've treated me…….but I've come to expect it from you”.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ July 27 2010,21:02) WJ, The story is allegorical. It is not factual.
If it is allegorical then it should be allegorical to reality.Why would Jesus use an allegory that does not match reality or the facts?
Allegory
a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ July 27 2010,20:37) Have i noticed?
Mike, i wrote a book about it? Didn't you read it? But nonetheless, if you noticed also then yeah!But then again, i never had much truck with them regarding the Scriptures. Just the futility of their lame arguments… But it is all in tge cause for Scriptural exercising…they provide 'gravity' for honourable and honest truth seekers to work against, keeps us 'grounded in Spiritual pursuit', so to speak.
i just pray that WJ comes ti his senses and stop the game playing before it is too late… For no man knoweth the day nor the hour when he will be called to the feast so let him forever be prepared with his washed robe.
Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake Matt 5:11
WJ
Oh WJ, W J, www Jjj?
Why do you thrash so?
Can you ever ever ever learn…please do not be or try to be deceiving with me…you are transparent to me.
WJ, know your mind….stop stop stop… Be honest. If you don't know, just say you don't know, please don't lie, it hurts me, and you don't want to do that because you are 'of god', aren't you?
WJ, you know i don't understand big words. They confuse me. Can you write what you just wrote in plain English.
Thenrich man should have done better with his wealth, now he realises his mistake and wants to warn others not to do the same but the spirit tells him that he cannot because he can't speak….andnin anycase even if he could who would believe a Dead Person….
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2010,12:20) Really WJ? Why did Jesus tell the parable about the weeds? Is this earth literally full of human “weeds” and “wheat”? Is that what humans are literally?
It was a parable, man.
mike
Humans are like weeds when the harvest comes Mike.
Do you see the parrallel to reality?
WJ
Yes, I see the parallel. Does that mean human beings are literally plant life that grow from the ground with sun and water?Solomon, the wisest man ever until Jesus, said,
5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.
What do you take that to mean?
mike
WJ,
Then you are blessed.
Would you like me to revile you some more?
Is this the glory that you seek? Do things to make people revile you so you feel you are blessed…it doesn't work that way, WJ.
The reviling is for when you are speaking the truth, that's when you are blessed if you keep yourself.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2010,12:26) You guys can't answer this can you? Abraham like all the others are with Jesus and the Father.
WJ,I believe that a very few went right from existence in flesh straight to spiritual existence in heaven.
Jesus says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were three of them. The fact that Moses and Elijah talked to Jesus at the transfiguration says they were included, IMO.
And Jesus says some of his apostles would not taste death…..so I believe that means at least two of them went right from here to heaven.
But I think they are few and far between, and Jesus wasn't one of those, for he had to die to accomplish what he came to accomplish. And if he wasn't raised from a “real” death like us, then where is the promise?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2010,12:28) Yep This is what happens when the light is turned on. They just start making accusations for they have no defence to the truth.
Not at all a new thing, this is what they accused Jesus of in his day.
WJ
You know what WJ?I have watched you and Jack double team so many people here. You don't even give them a chance to speak their thoughts. The first words out of their mouths are met with arrogance, ridicule and insults.
On the contrary, aside from one joking “high five” 3 or 4 months ago, this is the first time JA and I have ever had this kind of a “consultation” about you and Jack.
I was reading earlier today where you guys were on Kathi like there was no tomorrow. I almost felt sorry for her, but then I thought, “Even with half of her brain tied behind her back, the both of you are no match for her.”
Think about that WJ. How many of us non-trinitarians feel the need to “gang up” on you two with insults and ridicules? It's simply just not necessary. So you wolves go ahead and do what wolves do, and we sheep will just keep running to our Shepherd for protection from you.
mike
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