Creation

[kerwin]

Cindy(Irene) wrote:

Quote

John says if we think we do not sin, the truth is not in us. When we do sin, what we have now is a Mediator Jesus to go to the throne of God the Father and ask for the forgiveness of that sin.

You are misunderstanding John because following the statement your refer to John clearly states:

1 John 2:1(NIV) reads:

Quote

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

“If” indicating that either and individual does or does not sin.  If all men must sin as you have included then why did John put “if” instead of “when”?

1 John 1:8(NIV) reads:

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If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So what could John be speaking of if he is not speaking of current sins?   Could he not be speaking of past sins or even the sinful nature?  I favor the later as it when combined with verse 9 it agrees with Galatians 5:16 which states:

Galatians 5:16(NIV) reads:

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So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature

Nevertheless denying either your sinful nature or your past sins is doing the work of the devil.  In case someone misunderstands me denying your current sins is also the work of the devil.

[Cindy]

Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2009,18:44)

Cindy(Irene) wrote: Quote John says if we think we do not sin, the truth is not in us. When we do sin, what we have now is a Mediator Jesus to go to the throne of God the Father and ask for the forgiveness of that sin. You are misunderstanding John because following the statement your refer to John clearly states: 1 John 2:1(NIV) reads: Quote My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. “If” indicating that either and individual does or does not sin.  If all men must sin as you have included then why did John put “if” instead of “when”? 1 John 1:8(NIV) reads: Quote If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. So what could John be speaking of if he is not speaking of current sins?   Could he not be speaking of past sins or even the sinful nature?  I favor the later as it when combined with verse 9 it agrees with Galatians 5:16 which states: Galatians 5:16(NIV) reads: Quote So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature Nevertheless denying either your sinful nature or your past sins is doing the work of the devil.  In case someone misunderstands me denying your current sins is also the work of the devil.

kerwin  What are you saying, you are not sinning at all? I did not say we must sin, I said we do sin, that statement is different.  Nevertheless denying either your sinful nature or your past sins is doing the work of the devil.  In case someone misunderstands me denying your current sins is also the work of the devil. This is what you quoted.
Are you denying your sinful nature?  Does that not say, that we do sin?  I do still sin, I will admit that. You must be Superman if you do not sin.  But again we have a Mediator Jesus Christ through Him we can go to the throne of God, amd He will forgive that sin.
Irene

[kerwin]

Cindy(Irene) wrote:

Quote

What are you saying, you are not sinning at all?

 
I am making the point that when one reaches full maturity in Jesus the Anointed one then they would have stopped sinning and some will reach full maturity before they die.    That is our goal but in order to reach full maturity you must believe you can and will do it by the power and love of God because he will do it for you.   Even those who are fully mature will have a sinful nature and past sins though God will have overcome the first for them and forgiven the last.  It is about faith.

I am certainly not fully mature in Jesus Christ and can hardly claim to be his student at all though by the grace of God I strive to claim the goal every day.

[Cindy]

kerwin  I am glad that you are striving not to sin, that is what we all should do, however that was not the question at hand. You do admit that you not fully mature in Jesus Christ, and my believe is that few will before they die. But I do agree that we all have to try. Being 70 years old I don't have to worry about the sin's of my Youth no more.  However seeing things with our Children and Grandchildren makes me angry at times, and God's Holy Spirit does tell me that I failed again. So I pick up my cross and go on, till God will call me Home.  That for me cannot be soon enough.
Peace and Love Irene

[chosenone]

To all.
Many of us quote scripture to prove our point, but few understand what it means in 2Tim.2:15, that we must “correctly cut the word of truth”.
Let me explain, The 'old covenant' was Between God and His 'chosen people' “Israel”. The 'gentiles' had no part with God (Eph.2:11-12). The four gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, are about Jesus, the prophesied Jewish “Messiah”, and His message is to 'Israel”, see Math.15:24 …”I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.

Only Pauls epistles are for us, God has 'set aside' Israel in this present eon, and sent Paul to preach to all “nations”.

It makes no sense to quote scripture from any book of the bible, to make your point, unless you understand “who is speaking, and to whom he is speaking to”. This is “correctly cutting the word of truth”.

I would like to quote Pauls words to us in this present eon. …2Cor.5:18-19 18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.
20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, “Be conciliated to God!”
21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.

This states that God is at peace with all mankind in this present eon, He has conciliated us to Himself though the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. He (God), sees our sins no more, that means all mankind.
One must understand the word “conciliates”, this means a one way agreement, God to Mankind. When there will be a two-way agreement, God to mankind, and Mankind to God, this is a “reconciliation”. This, God will yet acomplish in the future.

So again I will stress this point, “that God has conciliated the world to Himself”, not counting our sins against us.

Then in this point in history, this presesnt eon, God does not hold any difference in condition as to what we might refer to as “good” or “evil”. That is an opinion of mankind, not God.

This is my understanding of scripture, I am not infallible, prone to error as anyone is, but this is what I believe scripture is saying.

God bless, Jerry.

[Cindy]

Quote (chosenone @ May 30 2009,17:33)

To all.  Many of us quote scripture to prove our point, but few understand what it means in 2Tim.2:15, that we must “correctly cut the word of truth”.    Let me explain,  The 'old covenant' was Between God and His 'chosen people' “Israel”.  The 'gentiles' had no part with God (Eph.2:11-12).  The four gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, are about Jesus, the prophesied Jewish “Messiah”, and His message is to 'Israel”, see Math.15:24  …”I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.  Only Pauls epistles are for us, God has 'set aside' Israel in this present eon, and sent Paul to preach to all “nations”.  It makes no sense to quote scripture from any book of the bible, to make your point, unless you understand “who is speaking, and to whom he is speaking to”.  This is “correctly cutting the word of truth”.  I would like to quote Pauls words to us in this present eon.   …2Cor.5:18-19   18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, 19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation. 20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, “Be conciliated to God!” 21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.  This states that God is at peace with all mankind in this present eon, He has conciliated us to Himself though the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.  He (God), sees our sins no more, that means all mankind.  One must understand the word “conciliates”, this means a one way agreement, God to Mankind.  When there will be a two-way agreement, God to mankind, and Mankind to God, this is a “reconciliation”.  This, God will yet acomplish in the future.  So again I will stress this point, “that God has conciliated the world to Himself”, not counting our sins against us.  Then in this point in history, this presesnt eon, God does not hold any difference in condition as to what we might refer to as “good” or “evil”.  That is an opinion of mankind, not God.  This is my understanding of scripture, I am not infallible, prone to error as anyone is, but this is what I believe scripture is saying. God bless,  Jerry.

choosenone  So do you then believe that you don't sin?  At least that is what I get out of your Postl  If so, then what John is saying, that if we belief that we do not sin, the truth is not in was, is wrong? IMO He is not.  Even though sin is not imputed to us, we do still sin. IMO we should then go to the Throne of God and ask for forgiveness of that sin. In the Old Testament they had to make a Animal Sacrifice in order for their sin's to be forgiven. After Christ dead and resurrection we have a Mediator Jesus Christ, who died for our sin's and is the perfect sacrifice, no other offering is necessary.
Peace and Love Irene

[Tim Kraft]

Jerry: EXCELLENT writing. I personally got some pieces of the Truth. The idea that Jesus took away our sin yet we are still in sin or sinning is no doubt having a “sin consciousness”. We might argue with what actually is sin or a sin but I think there is much more Bible support of the fact that it is finished through Jesus. If we still see sin in ourselves we blaspheme the work of Jesus and the word of God. God said we are clean. We have been made pure and spotless before God in Christ. Jesus has taken away our sin. We are washed by the Blood of Christ Jesus. If God sees our sin no more then we sure don't have to constantly ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness of what, sin is gone, done, finished, through, over!! If you believe in sin you are! If you belive sin is gone, it is! Life and death,our choice. This is really good stuff. God bless you Jerry, TK

[Cindy]

Tim Kraft! If what you are saying is true, then Satan should be gone. Is He? I do not think so. He is the one that causes us to sin. Jesus took away the eternal death penalty and no more sacrifice, but I do not think that you are perfect in the flesh. Paul tells us. I do what I don't want to do, and I don't do what I supposed to do. O wretches man that I am. That would be great if sin would not be around anymore. No more sickness and no more sorrow. That is the effect of sinning. What does Scripture tell us when that is going to happen? Not right now! When Jesus reign's in the Millenium.
Peace and Love Irene

[Tim Kraft]

Irene: It might help your perception of satan if every time you read the word satan, the devil, devils you use the definition of the greek word. Satan/a deceiver, the devil/a deceptive thought, devils/incorrect decieving doctrines! The Bible says a deceiving thought cometh not but for kill,steal, and rob the Truth of God. Where the True seed of the Word of God is sown, deceptive thoughts come immediatly to take away the Truth from ones mind/heart. As Jesus taught the True Word of God it cast out incorrect decieving doctrines of the people. Satan or a deceiver comes as (though) he is an Angel/messenger/preacher of Light. This is the end time war of armageddon. Mental wars for the Truth of God. We don't war against flesh and blood(other people) we war against principalities, doctrines(like the rapture)rulers of the darkness(mis-guided preachers)of this world. Deception has only cunning or trickery, it has no power! The only power darkness has is our attention to doctrinal error/sin. When we come into the Light as he is in the Light darkness leaves of it own accord. Paul said to one who thinketh something is a sin it is. The Law was until Jesus,Luke 16:16, since then there is no Law. Where there is no Law there is no sin. Sin gets is power or attention from a Law. We are talking about Gods Law not man made laws of the earth. Jesus washed away your sin, if you believe it! If you don't believe it, you are in sin and must recieve the punishment for it. The old covenant church was in error/sin. They were lost in sin/deception. Jesus came to show them the way. The Law and the Prophets were until John. Since then the Kingdom of God within you is preached.Matt 5:17—Luke 18:31—Luke 24:44. Blessings to you Irene, TK

[Tim Kraft]

To all: If we are so sure we are in sin will somebody tell me WHAT IS A SIN!! Is is something believed or is it something you do? Please support with scripture's. Is there a list of sin's? I know there is not! Are there multiple sin's or are we just in sin? If Jesus took away our sin then they are gone. Bless you all, TK

[Cindy]

Tim Kraft Then Jesus was not tested by Satan? Jesus will disagree with you here. And just like He was tested, we are too. I think we have a Tread on Satan, I will look it up, and bring it up for you
Irene

[Cindy]

Tim! Look under Truth and Tradition

Topic Ministers of Satan, Faith verses Tradition.

You will find some do agree with me and some that do not.

Peace and Love Irene

[chosenone]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 30 2009,22:38)

Jerry: EXCELLENT writing. I personally got some pieces of the Truth. The idea that Jesus took away our sin yet we are still in sin or sinning is no doubt having a “sin consciousness”. We might argue with what actually is sin or a sin but I think there is much more Bible support of the fact that it is finished through Jesus. If we still see sin in ourselves we blaspheme the work of Jesus and the word of God. God said we are clean. We have been made pure and spotless before God in Christ. Jesus has taken away our sin. We are washed by the Blood of Christ Jesus. If God sees our sin no more then we sure don't have to constantly ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness of what, sin is gone, done, finished, through, over!! If you believe in sin you are! If you belive sin is gone, it is! Life and death,our choice. This is really good stuff. God bless you Jerry, TK

Tim, thanks for your comments. You are correct in your understanding as to what Jesus sacrifice has done for us (all mankind). Our debt has been paid, past presesnt, AND FUTURE. Yes, we still sin, but the sacrifice of Jesus has covered our future sin as well.

God Bless, Jerry.

[chosenone]

Quote (Cindy @ May 30 2009,21:07)

Quote (chosenone @ May 30 2009,17:33) To all.  Many of us quote scripture to prove our point, but few understand what it means in 2Tim.2:15, that we must “correctly cut the word of truth”.    Let me explain,  The 'old covenant' was Between God and His 'chosen people' “Israel”.  The 'gentiles' had no part with God (Eph.2:11-12).  The four gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, are about Jesus, the prophesied Jewish “Messiah”, and His message is to 'Israel”, see Math.15:24  …”I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.  Only Pauls epistles are for us, God has 'set aside' Israel in this present eon, and sent Paul to preach to all “nations”.  It makes no sense to quote scripture from any book of the bible, to make your point, unless you understand “who is speaking, and to whom he is speaking to”.  This is “correctly cutting the word of truth”.  I would like to quote Pauls words to us in this present eon.   …2Cor.5:18-19   18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, 19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation. 20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, “Be conciliated to God!” 21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.  This states that God is at peace with all mankind in this present eon, He has conciliated us to Himself though the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.  He (God), sees our sins no more, that means all mankind.  One must understand the word “conciliates”, this means a one way agreement, God to Mankind.  When there will be a two-way agreement, God to mankind, and Mankind to God, this is a “reconciliation”.  This, God will yet acomplish in the future.  So again I will stress this point, “that God has conciliated the world to Himself”, not counting our sins against us.  Then in this point in history, this presesnt eon, God does not hold any difference in condition as to what we might refer to as “good” or “evil”.  That is an opinion of mankind, not God.  This is my understanding of scripture, I am not infallible, prone to error as anyone is, but this is what I believe scripture is saying. God bless,  Jerry. choosenone  So do you then believe that you don't sin?  At least that is what I get out of your Postl  If so, then what John is saying, that if we belief that we do not sin, the truth is not in was, is wrong? IMO He is not.  Even though sin is not imputed to us, we do still sin. IMO we should then go to the Throne of God and ask for forgiveness of that sin. In the Old Testament they had to make a Animal Sacrifice in order for their sin's to be forgiven. After Christ dead and resurrection we have a Mediator Jesus Christ, who died for our sin's and is the perfect sacrifice, no other offering is necessary. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene, You say “So do you then believe that you don't sin?” No, I do not say that, what scripture says is that our sin has been cleansed by His (Jesus) sacrifice. God “sees our sin no more”.
Let me give and example: If you were caught speeding, and were given a fine. This fine has to be paid, or pehaps a judge might 'forgive' the fine under some instances. Or a third possability, some one may come to your rescue and “pay your fine for you”. Now your fine is no longer attributed to you. It hasn't been 'forgiven' or paid by you, yet you are no longer responsiblefor this debt (fine).
This is what Jesus has done, He has paid our 'fine'. We are no longer respnsible for this debt. His sacrifice has paid our debt for all our sins, even more, for “all” sins, past, present, and future.
We don't have to ask forgiveness for our sins anymore, actually it would be an insult to God to keep asking for 'forgiveness' for our sins. He (God) would say, “what did I send My Son for”? Was His sacrifice not enough?

This is my opinion of what scripture is saying, God has sent His Son, whose death and resurrection has “justified” all mankind. He (God), sees our sin no more.

Blessings.

[kerwin]

Tim Kraft wrote:

Quote

It might help your perception of Satan if every time you read the word Satan, the devil, devils you use the definition of the Greek word.

Satan appears as a angel of light according to scripture. He is the Adversary but he is also The Accuser.

Both the Greeks and Hebrews put meaning to their names, for example Jesus (Greek) is also Joshua (Hebrew) and means the Lord Saves.

[Cindy]

chosenone What Jesus did by dying for us, Jesus took the death sentence away. He is our perfect sacrifice. We still have to go to the Throne of our Father Jehovah God and ask Him for the forgiveness of our sins. And if you believe that you are not sinning John says that the truth is not in you. So considered it and see if I and others are not right, at least my Husband believes like I do.
Peace and Love Irene

[chosenone]

Quote (Cindy @ June 01 2009,04:19)

chosenone  What Jesus did by dying for us, Jesus took the death sentence away. He is our perfect sacrifice. We still have to go to the Throne of our Father Jehovah God and ask Him for the forgiveness of our sins. And if you believe that you are not sinning John says that the truth is not in you. So considered it and see if I and others are not right, at least my Husband believes like I do. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Cindy, let me explain my beliefs. As you say we still sin and have to go to the Father for 'forgiveness'. If that is true, then why did Jesus have to die? If all we have to do for forgiveness is go to the 'Throne of our Father' and ask, then what purpose did Jesus' death and resurrection serve?

In 2Cor.5:18-21 …18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.
20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, “Be conciliated to God!”
21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.
Notice in versw 19 …”not reckoning their offenses to them”, that says it all, He (God) sees our sin no more.

Also look at Col.2:20 …20 If, then, you died together with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to decrees:
Remember, “the wages of sin is death”, so this scripture says we are deemed to have “died together with Christ”. That is what His sacrifice was for, PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS. Would you not then think it insulting to ignore this fact, and keep asking for forgiveness?

His sacrifice has “cleansed us of sin, past, present, and future”.

God Bless, Jerry.

[kerwin]

Cindy(Irene) wrote:

Quote

What Jesus did by dying for us, Jesus took the death sentence away.

Animals did that under the Law of Mosses.  Did Jesus come to save animals from being sacrificed?

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………..WE do go to God and confess our sins and what does it say, He (GOD) is faithful to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from (ALL) unrighteousness. He is Faithful to His word, that Jesus paid for all our sins even the sins of the whole world, not ours only. When we have a problem of not walking right we simply go boldly to the throne of GRACE and fine (HELP) in our time of Need. No one is saying we don't do wrong at times, its Just the penalty of DEATH has been removed by Jesus our Lords sacrifice. We still have to deal with things in our life, but we are more then conquerors through Him who loved us and gave himself for us. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg……………………….gene

[Cindy]

Quote (Gene @ June 01 2009,08:42)

Irene………..WE do go to God and confess our sins and what does it say, He (GOD) is faithful to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from (ALL) unrighteousness. He is Faithful to His word, that Jesus paid for all our sins even the sins of the whole world, not ours only. When we have a problem of not walking right we simply go boldly to the throne of GRACE and fine (HELP) in our time of Need. No one is saying we don't do wrong at times, its Just the penalty of DEATH has been removed by Jesus our Lords sacrifice. We still have to deal with things in our life, but we are more then conquerors through Him who loved us and gave himself for us. IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………….gene

Gene Did you even read my post? obviously not, otherwise you would have seen, that I said all those things already.
read it again, O. K.
Irene

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