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Quote (Cindy @ May 24 2009,15:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2009,14:03) Hi Irene,
There is no second chance.
Judgement follows death.
Who is talking about second chance?
For the majority of people it will be their first chance.Georg
Hi Georg,
You are not meant to make up ways of salvation for men.
Find it writtenGod is the King of everything but how does that prove free will does not exist even if all choose to obey him, which is certainly not the case.
Kerwin…….Just ask yourself, if what ever you chose or will has (a) influence of some kind, if so it is (NOT) “FREE” WILL, but influenced WILL. There is no such thing as (FREE WILL) only influenced WILLS and these are the (CAUSES) the cause you to chose what ever you chose. Your will or my will is irreverent only GOD'S WILL will be done. God WORK IN US (BOTH) TO WILL AND DO (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE. What part part that you don't understand. Jesus Said He came (NOT) to Do (HIS) Will, but the Will of Him who sent Him. Man choses not from (FREE) WILLS but from captivated WILLS. That why Jesus came to set the Captives (FREE) To free them from their desires of the flesh into another desire of the Spirit, but none of the has anything to do with a FREE WILL, which is no where to be found in scripture. Mans PRIDE HATES the absoluteness of GOD”S WILL. The ONLY WILL THAT WILL BE DONE> Jesus said thy Kingdom come (THY) WILL be done, not yours or mine, but GOD”S WILL ONLY. IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Gene,
You say “influenced will” and I get the impression you think human beings are puppets in the hand of God who does good because God makes them do good and do evil because God makes them do evil. That idea is absurd as God does not do evil much less is he tempted by evil.
God is a creator so he creates us with a part that either desires to do his commands or a part that rejects Him and so His Son. God is King and so commands everything in heaven and on earth and in this way manipulates us even to decided when, how, and if we should be proved. Still how does any of this prove we do not have a free will.
We are indeed addicted to sin and God handed us over to sin but being addicted does not mean you lack free will but instead that you have reasons to give into temptation to evil. I would certainly delight in being addicted to righteousness and perhaps one day by the grace of God that will happen. Should that day come then I will still have free will though my will will be to do all that God commands at all times.
So even with this free will why would I boast since God created me and instructed me?
Kerwin ……. A person who thinks like you would get that impression , because you think you save yourself by your So-call (FREE WILL) Choices. But scripture say ” WE are (CREATED) UNTO GOOD WORKS”, and “IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN US BOTH TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE. So I believe that is God influencing us. What part of that can't you understand. Is this another of your so-called “FLUID” WORDS”, Take as you like Words. Don't let (PRIDE) destory you, accept salvation by the (GRACE) of GOD , not of your works lest you should boast.
peace and love…………………..gene
peace and love……………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2009,21:51)
Hi CO,
God has never said He will save all men.
You should not adapt the writings to the saved and make them into a new gospel for all men.The gospel of the kingdom says that all must repent.[acts 17]
The gospel of the “Kingdom” was to Isael.
The gospel of “Grace” is to all nations.
1Tim4:9-11 …9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.Nick, you need a new bible, yours seem to miss some scriptures.
Chosenone……….Amen to that. I love Nick, but his biases block Him from coming to an understanding at times. IMO
peace and love top you and yours…………………….gene
Chooseone wrote:
Quote Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
So you are stating that Jesus lied when he stated that one of the 12 is doomed to destruction?
John 17:12(NIV) reads:
Quote While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
John 17:12(KJV) reads:
Quote While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
In case you fail to realize it “perdition” means destruction.
Then there is the scripture that states “all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” which according to your reasoning means that Jesus being a man sinned and therefore fell short of the glory of God. Of coarse if you want to remain self-deluded you may choose to say “all” means “all” in one scripture but not another or you can say Jesus was not a man.
Kerwin……..So to you Jesus did Not (OVERCOME Sinful Temptations in HIM) Because He had no temptations of sin, right. So he really didn't overcome sin right because he never had any sinful temptations and He really was not tempted as we are not to really and to overcome (AS) HE DID is a false statement right, because he never personally dealt with sin like we do right.
Jesus did not sin (BECAUSE) GOD the FATHER gave Him power to overcome it by HIS SPIRIT. He did (NOT) overcome SIN on HIS OWN. IMO
peace and love…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,08:21) Kerwin……..So to you Jesus did Not (OVERCOME Sinful Temptations in HIM) Because He had no temptations of sin, right. So he really didn't overcome sin right because he never had any sinful temptations and He really was not tempted as we are not to really and to overcome (AS) HE DID is a false statement right, because he never personally dealt with sin like we do right. Jesus did not sin (BECAUSE) GOD the FATHER gave Him power to overcome it by HIS SPIRIT. He did (NOT) overcome SIN on HIS OWN. IMO
peace and love…………………………..gene
Gene,You are stating I support the opposite view that I support. I actually agree with you on this one. I do not agree that all human beings will be saved. Some will be destroyed because God is just even though he aches to be merciful to everyone even Satan.
Hi kerwin.
Yes, some good biblical examples that some will experience destruction, but that doesn't mean eternal, as in everlasting. Christ Himself said that He will destroy the temple of God, and, in three days rebuild it.
Also, you say that that “all”, means all in some scripture, but not another. I find it hard to believe that all means something other than all. If you have an example where “all” means something other than all, I would be pleased to see it.Blessings.
Chooseone,
I am going to say that “destruction” means destruction with no resurrection as that is what destruction means. The first death is a sleep or rest according to many scriptures but I see no real support for the second death being anything but total destruction or eternal torment and of those I favor the first. I can also understand why God created some to be destroyed and that reason is they are needed to perfect those that will be saved. If God could find a way to perfect everyone without doing evil then he would have. There is a good reason why God states:
Ezekiel 18:23(NIV) reads:
Quote Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:23(KJV) reads:
Quote Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Kerwin………GOD created NO ONE TO ETERNALLY DESTROYED. That is a perverted View of our LOVING FATHER. The only thing that going to be destroyed is the EVIL in a person That must die permanently , but not the Person, He must be given repentance. Those who have put themselves to death in this life will not have to in the next, those who haven't will have to in the next life, through intense Judgments (lake of fire) its just that simple. Its all about salvation not throwing people into a literial Lake of fire. The lake of fire is symbolic language and represents intense Judgments of GOD to correct not eternally destory the person. Chosenone is right IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Gene wrote:
Quote The only thing that going to be destroyed is the EVIL in a person
That is certainly not what scripture explicitly states as it instead explicitly states:
Matthew 10:28(KJV) reads:
Quote And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I going to guess that destroying all the evil in certain individuals would also destroy them. If all they need is a new spirit though then they will get by adhering to the new covenant and the old one will be destroyed.
Quote (Gene @ May 24 2009,12:14) Irene……….Where is any of that written, please post it. Show me the word (FREE WILL) any where in scripture, also show me where we make our own (FAITH) Jesus clearly said (NO) man (CAN) come unto me except the FATHER DRAW (Greek DRAG) Him. Where is your, So- Called FREE WILL There. Jesus told His disciples You did (NOT) choose me, I chose you. He also said unto His deciles blessed are you for it has been given to you to understand the things of the Kingdom. Salvation is (NOT) a SELF CHOICE anything. For we are saved by GRACE and That (NOT) of OURSELVES BY our so-called free will choices or works least (ANY) should BOAST. IMO peace and love………………………gene
GeneGen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Adam “chose” to disobey God.
Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
When we hear the word of God preached, or read it our self, we have to make a choice, to obey, or not to obey, that is the question, and it is our choice.
Georg
Gene: Free will is inluenced by the God that is in you but in this life on earth you can overide at any time through your own choice. Also we have different perceptions of Truth about judgment. I was judged by the word of God through Jesus when he said your sin is forgiven. The word of God came for judgment. The word of God was, is and will continue to separate the sheep and the goats. Jesus came to save us from the evil ways of the Church at that time. They were lost in sin/error. Jesus corrected our thinking from the Temple made with hands to the Temple that is within all human beings. Jesus made us a Kingdom of Kings and Priests. We are the Church which is his body. We are the Priest of our own church. We are seated with him in high places. Notice in Revelation that…” I saw THE DEAD stand before God and the books were opened:…and another book was opened, which is the book of life:…and the DEAD WERE JUDGED out of those things that were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. We are alive in Christ. We have already been judged by the word of God as pure, spotless sons of God in Christ.Jesus took away our sin. We are no more in sin/thinking. That would be a sin consciousness. We are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. The only judgment there could be is, he's clean! The Truth set us free from the Law of sin and death. There is no sin in Christ. Christ is in us. There is no sin!! The dead that were being judged by works had not accepted their purification in Christ. This is the free gift of God as I see it. God bless you all! TK
Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,13:21) Kerwin……..So to you Jesus did Not (OVERCOME Sinful Temptations in HIM) Because He had no temptations of sin, right. So he really didn't overcome sin right because he never had any sinful temptations and He really was not tempted as we are not to really and to overcome (AS) HE DID is a false statement right, because he never personally dealt with sin like we do right. Jesus did not sin (BECAUSE) GOD the FATHER gave Him power to overcome it by HIS SPIRIT. He did (NOT) overcome SIN on HIS OWN. IMO
peace and love…………………………..gene
Gene:I wish we all could have a dialogue on the word sin! If looked up it means, error or mistake. The word sin was not used in Garden of Eden. Neither God nor Adam used the word sin in the Garden. There was no Law in the Garden, apart from the Law, sin is dead. This word was not used until Gen 4:6 when Adams two boys brought offerings to Adam and he rejected one. Adam declared,…”if thou doest well shalt thou not be accepted; and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door…”! Man declared sin as an act or the punishment for an act, not God. Through this man sin entered the world and death through the mistake/error/sin. There was only God in the beginning. God is Good.Sin was a mistaken belief.Sin became something that separated man from God.Nothing can separate man and God in Truth, but a mistaken belief that you are separated from God by something you did or said could separate you in your mind. Man was falling away from God by believing he was doing wrong. He wasn't wrong, he just believed he was. A wrong belief that something could separate mankind from God is the original sin. Blessings to all, TKTim Kraft……..I have heard sin meant to MISS the MARK, and it was GOD not Adam ,who told Cain that if he did well He would be accepted if not SIN was lying (CROUCHED) at His Door (of his Heart) and that he must (MASTER) it. This is the first place sin is mentioned in scripture though. We are told we must master (overcome ) SIN. And Jesus said whosoever Overcomes even as (I) have. Question would be How did Jesus overcome sin, was it not by the works of the FATHER in HIM, “the FATHER in ME HE doth the works”. God the Father told us to be perfect as He was perfect, be you HOLY as He is HOLY. But the question is how is that done is it by our so-called “FREE WILLS” or by the effectual working of GOD'S Spirit in us as it worked in Jesus? I believe righteousness is a (CREATION) and can only be obtained by GOD HIMSELF Accomplishing it in us. ” FOR you are (created) unto good works”, and again the Gentiles who have not the Law, but do the things contained in the it, show the Law written in their hearts (BY) the (Hand of GOD). IMO
peace and love to you and yours Tim……………………………gene
To all! I read some of your post,s and let me give you my understanding. First of all, Christ did come to save us from eternal dead. However, we do still sin. John says if we think we do not sin, the truth is not in us. When we do sin, what we have now is a Mediator Jesus to go to the throne of God the Father and ask for the forgiveness of that sin. Jesus is the perfect Sacrifice for our Sins, it is nailed to the cross. In a twinkle of an eye He will forgive us, if we ask. IMO we do have to ask, it is not automatic, like some might think. Even though it says that Sin is not imputed to us. Salvation is by the Faith in Jesus Christ, then it is a free gift from God. That too is not automatic. What then do we do. First is to get Baptized, we receive God's Holy Spirit. With His Spirit we can now understand the things of God. In measure, meaning we all grow in different stages, IMO.
That is why so many different understanding on this site, for instance.
Gene is right about that the Law is written in our Hearts, if we listen. Jesus on the Sermon on the
Mount tells us that that Law is magnified. As a young Person IMO it becomes so hard now a days. Sin is every where. We cannot turn on that T.V. and not see sin. In a way I am glad that I am old.
Peace and Love IreneTo all.
Many of us quote scripture to prove our point, but few understand what it means in 2Tim.2:15, that we must “correctly cut the word of truth”.
Let me explain, The 'old covenant' was Between God and His 'chosen people' “Israel”. The 'gentiles' had no part with God (Eph.2:11-12). The four gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, are about Jesus, the prophesied Jewish “Messiah”, and His message is to 'Israel”, see Math.15:24 …”I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.Only Pauls epistles are for us, God has 'set aside' Israel in this present eon, and sent Paul to preach to all “nations”.
It makes no sense to quote scripture from any book of the bible, to make your point, unless you understand “who is speaking, and to whom he is speaking to”. This is “correctly cutting the word of truth”.
I would like to quote Pauls words to us in this present eon. …2Cor.5:18-19 18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.
20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, “Be conciliated to God!”
21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.This states that God is at peace with all mankind in this present eon, He has conciliated us to Himself though the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. He (God), sees our sins no more, that means all mankind.
One must understand the word “conciliates”, this means a one way agreement, God to Mankind. When there will be a two-way agreement, God to mankind, and Mankind to God, this is a “reconciliation”. This, God will yet acomplish in the future.So again I will stress this point, “that God has conciliated the world to Himself”, not counting our sins against us.
Then in this point in history, this presesnt eon, God does not hold any difference in condition as to what we might refer to as “good” or “evil”. That is an opinion of mankind, not God.
This is my understanding of scripture, I am not infallible, prone to error as anyone is, but this is what I believe scripture is saying.
God bless, Jerry.
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