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Hi,
As CO said in another thread.” Scripture is clear to whom it is addressed to. “
The letters of Paul, Peter and the apostles are addressed to the members of the body of Christ whether in their time or ours is not relevant as the body is one with new members joining till the day of the Masters return.
So it is inappropriate to take these letters of encouragement, explanation and advice to the saved and change them into some new gospel for the heathen. Being yet unborn of the Spirit they can only grasp a carnal and worldly view.
Quote The letters of Paul, Peter and the apostles are addressed to the members of the body of Christ Some scriptures to get us started:
“HOLY ONES” PROBABLY IS “SAINTS” IN YOUR BIBLES
DANIEL 7:18
“But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’”
(HOLY ONES RECEIVE THE KINGDOM)DANIEL 7:21-22
““I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”
(HOLY ONES RECEIVE THE KINGDOM)DANIEL 7:25
“And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.”DANIEL 7:27
““‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’”
(HOLY ONES ARE GIVEN THE KINGDOM AND RULERSHIP)ROMANS 1:7
“to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, called to be holy ones: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
(SOME ARE CALLED TO BE HOLY ONES)1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”
(BEING A CHRISTIAN DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU ARE A HOLY ONE.)1 CORINTHIANS 6:1-2
“Does anyone of YOU that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters?”
(HOLY ONES WILL BE JUDGES, IN THE KINGDOM)2 CORINTHIANS 1:1
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy [our] brother to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, together with all the holy ones who are in all of Acha?ia:”EPHESIANS 1:1
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are [in Eph?esus] and faithful ones in union with Christ Jesus:”
(BEING A FAITHFUL ONE DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU ARE ONE OF THE HOLY ONES WHO RECEIVES THE KINGDOM. AFTER ALL, THE HOLY ONES ARE RULERS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. THEY NEED SOMEONE TO RULE AND JUDGE OVER. RIGHT?)EPHESIANS 1:18
“the eyes of YOUR heart having been enlightened, that YOU may know what is the hope to which he called YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones,”
(THE HOLY ONES RECIEVE AN INHERITANCE, THE KINGDOM, WITH CHRIST)EPHESIANS 2:19
“Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God,”PHILIPPIANS 1:1
“Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus who are in Philip?pi, along with overseers and ministerial servants:”
(JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE AN OVERSEER OR ELDER OR DEACON DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE ONE OF THE HOLY ONES WHO RECEIVE THE KINGDOM)COLOSSIANS 1:1-2
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy [our] brother to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Colos?sae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.”
(AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE A FAITHFUL BROTHER DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MAKE YOU A HOLY ONE OR SAINT. THE HOLY ONES HAVE A SPECIAL PRIVILEGE OF RULING IN GOD'S KINGDOM OVER MANKIND)HEBREWS 6:10
“For God is not unrighteous so as to forget YOUR work and the love YOU showed for his name, in that YOU have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering.”
(A DISTINCITION. GOD WON'T FORGET THE LOVE AND WORK IN THAT THEY MINISTERED TO THE “HOLY ONES.”)
MATTHEW 25:37-40
“Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’”HEBREWS 13:24
“Give my greetings to all those who are taking the lead among YOU and to all the holy ones. Those in Italy send YOU their greetings.”
(ANOTHER DISTINCITION)Greetings David
I have just read your above post, and I then read it again carefully. For your comments seem to give you away as one of those people who, at the direction of their masters (the Watchtower Bible And Tract Society) seek and claim to have an “earthly hope”. Now if this is not so, please confess your sort to be otherwise and tell me what you are getting at under the topic “context”. But if it is so (you are a JW), I know what you are getting at, I know the history of your brotherhood, I know the many errors in your doctrines and , in short, I know who you are.
Which leads me to who I am, spiritually speaking. I am a Christian of senior years who once for about one year at the age of 14 years attended a Kingdom Hall, but was not baptised. Other than being registered at birth as “Church Of England”, as an adult I have never been any form of inducted member of a “Denominational” Church. My faith and that of my little ones is a matter directly between us and my Lord Jesus Christ, for I seek to do the bidding of him and not men. This has been so for about 10 years. I come to this place seeking like minded persons with whom to discuss our faith and refine knowledge. I declair that Jesus Christ is the son of God and came in the flesh and through his death provided me and many many others with a most sacred and only means of being kept free from the judgement of the second death through the first resurrection. I do not hold the doctrine of the trinity and many related doctrines of the roman, orthodox or protestant religions as truth. I believe that the bible, although perhaps a little sullied by men, is the inspired word of God literally and the nature and form of it's principles cannot be rationalised to suit worldly men.
Do you wish now to speak to me about “context”.
May You Have The Undeserved Kindness Of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
RS
Quote (Rabsheka @ Jan. 25 2009,01:31) Greetings David I have just read your above post, and I then read it again carefully. For your comments seem to give you away as one of those people who, at the direction of their masters (the Watchtower Bible And Tract Society) seek and claim to have an “earthly hope”. Now if this is not so, please confess your sort to be otherwise and tell me what you are getting at under the topic “context”. But if it is so (you are a JW), I know what you are getting at, I know the history of your brotherhood, I know the many errors in your doctrines and , in short, I know who you are.
Which leads me to who I am, spiritually speaking. I am a Christian of senior years who once for about one year at the age of 14 years attended a Kingdom Hall, but was not baptised. Other than being registered at birth as “Church Of England”, as an adult I have never been any form of inducted member of a “Denominational” Church. My faith and that of my little ones is a matter directly between us and my Lord Jesus Christ, for I seek to do the bidding of him and not men. This has been so for about 10 years. I come to this place seeking like minded persons with whom to discuss our faith and refine knowledge. I declair that Jesus Christ is the son of God and came in the flesh and through his death provided me and many many others with a most sacred and only means of being kept free from the judgement of the second death through the first resurrection. I do not hold the doctrine of the trinity and many related doctrines of the roman, orthodox or protestant religions as truth. I believe that the bible, although perhaps a little sullied by men, is the inspired word of God literally and the nature and form of it's principles cannot be rationalised to suit worldly men.
Do you wish now to speak to me about “context”.
May You Have The Undeserved Kindness Of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
RS
Nice post, however to become a Christian my understanding is that one should be Baptized and receive the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God. I do believe that God gives us a certain amount of His Holy Spirit to draw us, but after that it is up to us to get Baptizes etc. We came out of the Catholic Church and were baptized by a W.W.C.of God Minister. He also lay-ed hands on us, which I find to be of importance. Once the Church split up in 1994, since then we have stayed home. We are under the New Covenant, the Blood of Christ. Under Christ Jesus or Lord and King.
Peace and Love IreneGreetings Irene
Yes, you are right. When I said I was not baptised I meant into the JWs. They get all excited about being baptised by them and then falling away from “the truth”, disfellowshipping and such. I was, however baptised or “christened” as a baby by a COE priest.
But that is one of the problems isn't it. Does receiving baptism from someone who you may later consider as possibly unrighteous count. Or does it count any more than having a priest splash water on babies? Immediately after the death of the Lord, desciples could baptise but only apostles could invoke the Holy spirit by the laying on of hands.
Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: 16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17 (ASV)Moreover, now you are withdrawn from the denominations, who would you choose from outside your number to give you rightous baptism. Our Lord Jesus Christ baptises men with fire. That is, letting our faith be proven in the face of tribulation, which is not ritual or symbolic, but real to our flesh and spirit. And I think in this day and age this is enough. For I feel that your journey out of christendom was indeed a tribulation and a baptism. Noah did not go swimming in the waters of the deluge for he used a bird, and when passing through the Red Sea the waters did not touch the Israelites but did drown the Egyptians. Do not let Pharisees and bureaucrats deceive you. Being baptised with water is fine, but it is the Holy Spirit that helps to save
May you have the Undeserved Kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ
RS
Infant baptisim is not a true baptisim. Baptisim is for the adult who understands the good news of the kingdom and wants to be cleansed of thei sins.
An infant has no record of sin. You heard me right. Infants will not be held accountable for the sins of Adom, Chava (Eve) their birth mother or father, their aunt, their sister etc.
Sin is Torahlessness. Sin means living willfully against the will of the All Mighty.
An infant has hardly the ability or the forethought to be capable of such a thing.
So as an adult who baptisim is not recognized by the All Mighty, you would do well to learn more about His will for you, through the Words of His SOn Yahushua Mashiach, and the Scriptures. Yahushua will never lead you into darkness. His path leads to truth, and that is how I learned all these things.
Baptisim represents or is a shado picture of dying to self and to sin, and upon coming up out of the water, we are a re-newed person, who has vowed to sin no more!
Now we must seek to do Torah and stay on that path, for it is the same path that Yahushua walked and He is calling us to “Follow Me.”
Rabsheka wrote:
Quote But that is one of the problems isn't it. Does receiving baptism from someone who you may later consider as possibly unrighteous count.
I do not see how it could since it is faith that causes the miracle of rebirth at baptism except when they are a heretic since we are instructed not to mix with the ungodly. I do not have the ability to judge their heart but I can judge their doctrine. Still I am not sure of it.
Rabsheka wrote:
Quote I have just read your above post, and I then read it again carefully. For your comments seem to give you away as one of those people who, at the direction of their masters (the Watchtower Bible And Tract Society) seek and claim to have an “earthly hope”. Now if this is not so, please confess your sort to be otherwise and tell me what you are getting at under the topic “context”. But if it is so (you are a JW), I know what you are getting at, I know the history of your brotherhood, I know the many errors in your doctrines and , in short, I know who you are.
There are some spin offs of the JW religion but I don't believe Nick is a member of either the JW sect or any of its spin offs. He does seem to have a similar flawed belief when it comes to the nature of Jesus. I at one time did also though I was uncomfortable with the JW teachings. Personally I do not think Nick worded his post well since he was actually addressing particular individuals who seem to believe the gospel taught by the apostles at Pentecost changed when Paul began teaching his message to the Gentiles. They use Hebrews 6:1-2 to teach the absurd message that baptism, repentance, and believing that Jesus is raised from the dead are not necessary since faith is all that is necessary. They actually cherry pick the one of the three and say only baptism is not necessary but by their corrupt logic neither are the other two needed which I included them. I hope they realize they have been tricked by Satan and so seek the true gospel of Jesus our Lord and Master.
Greetings Laurel and Cindy
Now this below is what Peter, the first to baptise in the Lord's name after he left them, is what Baptism is:
when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience
1 Peter 3:20-21 (ESV)Now I have just been over to the “Baptism” topic where a war of egos is raging, and the patience of Job would be more severely taxed than ever, for the arguements never establish a common proposition. However, as the foregoing indicates, baptism is symbolic of certain things, and I do not believe that me taking advantage of my infant baptism later on in life and using it as my path to appeal to God for a good conscience is not as good as any other. And the same goes for Cindy's WWC baptism – it is your attitude to it, not the supposed correctness of the ritual, that gives it effect.
Now I'm not sure what your references to the Torah mean exactly, for it's baptism was not by water but through it. Yes, all baptims represent the leaving behind of something, but that's the point – you have to do the leaving behind or the baptism does not count, and the Israelites as a nation could not. Now I agree that Christian baptism REPRESENTS our wish to share in the death of our Lord and to cease to PRACTISE (plan to do) sin. So, what is more important, the baptism or the doing? For me, the doing is the ongoing baptism. OK
RS
Rabsheka writes:
Quote
Now I agree that Christian baptism REPRESENTS our wish to share in the death of our Lord and to cease to PRACTISE (plan to do) sin.The teaching that baptism is symbolic is clearly a false teaching for in Romans 6 we are told a miracle occurs by which our self is put to death and we are given a new spirit that is created to be like the Messiah Jesus.
Romans 6:3-4(NIV) reads:
Quote Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
There are other scripture to back up my conclusion that it is by faith one enters the new covenant when immersed in water but it seems to be off topic for this particular thread which is about taking scripture out of context. Perhaps we can speak of it in the thread on baptism.
GB,
What is the point of studying the finer points of sacred scripture when you admit in another thread that your doctrinal filters are what you rely on?“When i put it through my doctrinal filter it makes sense , “
Hi David:
You say:
Quote 1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”
(BEING A CHRISTIAN DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU ARE A HOLY ONE.)It is the blood of Jesus which washes away our sins when we repent and consequently, we are holy, and so, I don't understand your statement saying that being a Christian doesn't necesarily mean you are a holy one. Of course, if we say that we are a Christian, and we are not obeying the commandments of the Lord, we are not Christians but hypocrites. There is no holiness in the later.
To all……….All who have the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD in them are “HOLY ONES” . that all the means and they are Heirs and Joint heirs with Jesus Christ. And will reign with him For a Thousand years in His Kingdom.
love and peace to you all……………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 27 2009,11:31) To all……….All who have the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD in them are “HOLY ONES” . that all the means and they are Heirs and Joint heirs with Jesus Christ. And will reign with him For a Thousand years in His Kingdom. love and peace to you all……………………gene
If they live by the Holy Spirit that is within them then they are by definition Holy for it is Holy as Holy does.Those who commit blaspheme against the Holy Spirit within will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven not will those who are insincere.
Galatians 5:16-25 makes that point.
GB,
Scripture demands that not only are we vessels for the Spirit but that the Spirit leads us.
The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.Greetings David and All
I agree with Kerwin and 942767 and GB and, err, Nick. (Now that wasn't hard self was it!) Those who have the Spirit are all Holy Ones, and those who do not or do not yet are not. This applies to now and to the congregations in the 1st century. For the Lord said “You must seek the Kingdom first”, both first before any thing else under the covenant and first before any other form of Grace or mercy. There is only one covenant, and that is for The Kingdom. I still feel David that you are after an opportunity to prove the grossly false doctrine of “an earthly hope”.
Now I and Kerwin and 942767 and GB and Nick would joyfully welcome you to become a Holy One and enter the Kingdom. So ask yourself why in the name of everything that is on earth and in heaven (I always wanted to say that) would the 24 faceless men deny it to you if they did not have a hidden agenda.But if you would rather argue scripture than receive the love of God, Jesus Christ and the brothers, then I will argue scripture.
May You Have The Undeserved Kindness Of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
RSQuote It is the blood of Jesus which washes away our sins when we repent and consequently, we are holy, and so, I don't understand your statement saying that being a Christian doesn't necesarily mean you are a holy one. Of course, if we say that we are a Christian, and we are not obeying the commandments of the Lord, we are not Christians but hypocrites. There is no holiness in the later. 1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”If everyone who calls on Jesus name were a “holy one” then why say greetings to the holy ones AND to everyone else who calls on Jesus' name.
Many scriptures speak of the “HOLY ONES” receiving the kingdom:
DANIEL 7:18
“But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’” (compare 7:22,27)These are the ones that are made “to be a kingdom.” (Revelation 1:6; 5:9,10)
They are “joint heirs with Christ,” “heirs of the kingdom.” (Rom 8:17; James 2:5)
THEY ACT AS KINGS, JUDGES AND PRIESTS.
And just as not everyone in your country makes up the government, not everyone in the new world will make up the kingdom. Those who make up the kingdom “rule over [on] the earth.” (Rev 5:10)WHO DO THEY RULE OVER? (I'm curious as to your answer)
All the others who do not make up the kingdom. Remember, those who make up the kingdom are a small number:
LUKE 12:32:
“Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”
Revelation 14 and Revelation 7 speak of 144,000 who have been “bought from the earth.”But there are other sheep:
JOHN 10:16
““And I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”The “LITTLE FLOCK” who make up the kingdom (luke 12:32) will rule over a “great crowd” of fellow believers:
REVELATION 7:9
“After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”So, when it says the following and distinguishes between the “holy ones” and the others who also follow Christ, that is how I understand it:
1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”Here's another example:
PHILIPPIANS 1:1
“Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus who are in Philip?pi, along with overseers and ministerial servants:”The ones who were taking the lead in the congregations (overseers) were listed separately from the holy ones. Does this not indicate that being a Christian doesn't necessarily mean you are to be one of the “holy ones” who will rule and judge over everyone?
Hi david,
Simple parallelism.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”A beautiful expression of the efficient use of words in scripture.
Hi david,
JOHN 10:16
““And I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”These other sheep will not see the Millenium but be rescued in the final judgement. They are shown separated from the goats shown in Mt 25
Hi david,
Phil1
1Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:Some are in positions of authority
Hi David,
You say
The “LITTLE FLOCK” who make up the kingdom (luke 12:32) will rule over a “great crowd” of fellow believers:Indeed they will rule with Christ but over the nations.
Rev 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Lk19
16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
So moving to what you quote from Rev7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Where does it say that those who are saved through the great tribulation will be ruled by the 144,000? Nowhere.
But we do see these servants again in Rev22
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
REVELATION 7:9
“After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”
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