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I saw this on another site.
The Word Was “Divine”
by: Paul, Webmasterhttps://www.ntgreek.org/answers/answer-frame-john1_1.htm has the best explanation, defense, and support of the translation “The Word was Divine.” It is exactly the same explanation I received in my first-year Greek class.
The word “God” is being used as an adjective in the phrase. See the part of the article with the heading “The Predicate Coming Before the Subject.” The principle is called “Colwell’s rule.” It is quite arcane, difficult to understand, for someone not well-versed in Greek, but it is not a questionable or controversial rule.
Both my Greek teacher and the web page I just linked want to use “The Word has the character and nature of God” as a translation. That may be good Greek, but it is terrible English. We have a word that means “has the character and nature of God,” and that word is divine.
Proclaimer: AGES Before → Now → For evermore
Now ✓
You obviously agree that we live in an age now
Future ✓
You have agreed already that there are ages to come
Past ☓
Now you only need to see the possibility of ages in the past.
Luke 1:69-71… He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David, as He spoke through His holy prophets, those of ages past, salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us…
John 9:32… Never in the ages was it heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
I have no problem with past ages. You have a problem thinking that they must either refer to epochs before man existed, or after the Day of the Lord.
Correct your thinking.
Proclaimer: i believe I have answered all questions that I have read.
You’ve got to be kidding me! 😅🤣😂 I could fill a page with the questions you have refused to answer – even after being asked over and over!
Heck, I just asked you one today that you STILL haven’t addressed. Ready?
Exodus 20:11… For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them…
QUESTION THAT HAS NEVER BEEN ANSWERED BY PROCLAIMER:
You claim that the heaven and earth are excluded from the things God made in six days. God says that the heaven and earth are included in those things He made in six days.
WHICH OF YOU IS TELLING THE TRUTH?
Proclaimer: I await your new no 1 question or new evidence for me to address.
Okay, here’s one I’ve never asked before…
The Bible says the sun was made on day 4. (You say God cleared the atmosphere or whatever on day 4. Either way…)
How long was each day in Genesis 1 AFTER the sun was made (or allowed to shine through)?
Proclaimer: Anyhow, if you can be wrong about me surrendering, then what else are you wrong about? That is a legit question. God is my witness.
Just to be clear, I said you were TRYING to surrender… but I won’t allow it. But with God as your witness, let’s see if you start actually ANSWERING questions in a DIRECT and HONEST manner – instead of trying to divert, avoid, and pontificate.
You have two pending right now that have only been posted for a matter of minutes. I’ll stop there and wait for your DIRECT and HONEST answers to them – sans irrelevant pontification and ad hominem nonsense.
Let God judge between us.
Six days of creation question
Exodus 20:11… For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them…
QUESTION THAT HAS NEVER BEEN ANSWERED BY PROCLAIMER:
You claim that the heaven and earth are excluded from the things God made in six days. God says that the heaven and earth are included in those things He made in six days.
Already answered and multiple times too.
Never denied six days. But said that a day to God is not a day to us.
I see three possibilities that fit with observation and the increase of knowledge.
First possibility
The first is that the heavens and earth are created out of nothing or whatever. Then on the first day, the earth is terraformed by the Spirit of God hovering over the deep. This includes an atmosphere that places the heavens into the vault. So the heavens and earth being made in 6 days is speaking primarily of this terraforming process with the cosmos already existing beforehand. The six days is talking about making land, animals, plants, ets with the sun, moon, and stars being placed in the vault or made visible in the atmosphere.
Second possibility
The second option assumes by the by the end of the first day, the universe is in existence. This includes a watery planet earth with God’s Spirit moving over the deep. Read it for yourself. Take the term ‘Day 1’ then look before that term to see what has been accomplished. Note points 1-5 are there before the evening of Day 1..
- In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
- Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep,
- and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
- And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
- God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”
- And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Third possibility
The third option that also agrees with observation is the universe is like a virtual world. Perhaps virtual to God and real to us. In that case, 6 stages of building this cosmos and could be in an order that God chooses just as a human virtual world creator could create the stages in almost any order. Because the order doesn’t matter so much., what does matter is when the stages are complete, the world comes online. This view too follows observation from both astronomical and quantum observation. It also answers what the universe is expanding into. If I was to expand a virtual world on the outskirts, then what was the space before the virtual world occupied it? The answer is nothing.
There was no space.Fourth non-possibility
I think these three potentials above blow away the 6000 year old pizza model. That model appears to be more like a fairy tale for grownups who deny satellites and science. It’s for those who decided to not use the thinking and reason that God endowed man with and who reject the increase of knowledge because of superstition or other primitive thinking and ideas. Such take the easy of path of seeing everything as literal or might exercise some judgement but with bias as they cherry pick what is literal and what isn’t. Such are waiting for the return of a Jesus who has a samurai sword coming from his mouth and the Day of the Lord and Day of Judgement take place in a single 24 hour period. For me, this method is bad. It makes things silly and sound immature. Further, observational evidence shows us that it is way off the mark.
Conclusion
There could be other interpretations that fit the text. Or it could be a combination of some of the points I mention in the three possibilities I have mentioned as well as other views. One thing I do know, is that your theory is a nonstarter for me. It requires that you throw away your ability to reason and label satellites and science as not only fake, but an elaborate conspiracy created by elites. Then are we to assume that scientists mistakenly screwed up big time because their fake science points to a universe that is so finely tuned, that the odds of it being that perfect outnumber all the atoms in the entire visible universe. And if all Christians settled on your theory, then people could make the argument that God has a God because his nature is not probably eternal. In your case, he created a snow globe that sits on his mantlepiece. In other words, a sophisticated alien who is perhaps much bigger in size to us.
The Sun question
How long was each day in Genesis 1 AFTER the sun was made (or allowed to shine through)?
Already answered this despite not being given the question.
The sun was already created as it is part of the universe. What happens on Day 4, is that they appear in the vault. The part about God creating the Sun, Moon, and Stars is him reminding us that he is the author. And that these objects now appear in the vault.
So how long was the day?
A day to the LORD is a long period of time compared to our day. It can be any length he desires as we are not told of an exact amount nor the units. Just that it is like a thousand years which is to say, a very long time from our perspective.
There is nothing in scripture that states that God is dictated to by days of a certain length. He is God. Days respect him, not the other way round.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
This one keeps escaping you Mike it seems.
That is your two questions answered.
Proclaimer,
As far as I understand, the divine nature of God the Father, his eternal substance and power, his eternal life, all his divine attributes, ALL OF THIS WAS GIVEN TO THE SON WHEN HE WAS BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER IN ETERNITY PAST.
👇
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD: and they that hear SHALL LIVE.
[26] For AS THE FATHER hath LIFE IN HIMSELF; so hath HE GIVEN TO THE SON to have LIFE IN HIMSELF;(John 5:26)IT IS THIS, ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST THAT HE RECEIVED FROM THE FATHER THAT ALLOWS HIM TO RAISE THE DEAD.
AMEN!Yes Berean.
While we have in part, he has in full.
He was also the only begotten. The first born.
No man can claim to be the first can they.
We are made by a natural process of God and through the logos. We receive a second birth later to become a spirit sons or children of God. Christ even calls us brothers and we will have a body like his too. We share the same nature.
All things were made through the logos and without it, nothing was made. The logos became flesh. And the Word of God will return to bring judgement.
Divine order:
God → Logos / Christ → Man
Proclaimer,
I would say the divine order is more like this:
God the Father → His only begotten Son who is the only begotten God → Creation
Proclaimer
We as children of God, we participate by faith in the spiritual character of God in Christ (participant of the divine nature)
but what we must know is that Christ is of divine and human nature and, in as an only begotten Son of God he possesses all the divine attributes of his Father: holiness, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence and eternity.
This is the fullness of divinity.For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.(Col.2:9)
Christ as man was continually filled with the Spirit of God the Father and as only begotten Son OF God He was divine in nature possessing all the divine attributes of the Father (holiness, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, eternity)
Proclaimer said: “The sun was already created as it is part of the universe. What happens on Day 4, is that they appear in the vault.”
How about this, the “light” was the glory of God on day one as it entered the dimension of creation. The sun did not appear until day four when it was created.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
How about this, the “light” was the glory of God on day one as it entered the dimension of creation. The sun did not appear until day four when it was created.
Before the closing of Day 1, God created the heavens and the earth. Day 4 has the sun, moon, and stars in the vault. Not in the universe.
Is the vault the universe?
No.
Mike thinks the vault is a glass dome.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Read it carefully. It is not saying that the earth will have no sun or moon. Rather that God is light and thus the light is probably a candle compared to the light of God and of the Lamb. It is not necessary for light like it is now.
NOTE: Sunshine is not the celestial object we know of as the sun. Rather, it is the rays of the sun that left the sun and hit the earth.
When sunshine hits your arm, is that the sun? In a way yes. In a way no. Regardless, the text simply says that there is no need for the shine of the sun and moon. It doesn’t say that there is no need for the heat the sun provides or the gravity that the sun and moon provide for example. Just the shine.
When reading scripture, we need to be more sophisticated and to look carefully at the detail. This matters.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
It is not a title from the book of Genesis, although it could have been.
Apparently God created the heavens…. (first)
Is this really the case when we consider verse 2 from the human point of view?
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[2] And the earth was formless and empty; and darkness covered the face of the abyss. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.The answer is no
BUT FROM GOD’S POINT OF VIEW WE CAN BELIEVE THAT IT IS, FOR GOD CALLS THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS IF THEY ARE….(Rom.4:17)
AND SO GOD CALLS “HEAVENS” WHICH IS THE “WATERS” IN FACT, BUT KNOWING THAT WHEN HE SEPARATES “THE WATERS”, HE WILL CREATE THE HEAVENS
WHICH WILL BE BETWEEN THE “WATERS ABOVE AND THE WATERS BELOW”And the earth (v.1)
Do we see the earth in verse 2?
yes, the whole of the earth, (not the element “earth”), but it is formless and empty…
the element “earth” is enveloped by “waters”AND SO GOD FIRST CREATED THE EARTH WRAPPED WITH WATERS….
👇
[3] AND GOD SAID:
: Let there be light ! And there was light.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)
[4] And God saw that the light was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.When reading scripture, we need to be more sophisticated and to look carefully at the detail. This matters.
Spoken about the Son, the only begotten God:
“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11They will perish, but You remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garmenth they will be changed;
but You remain the same,
and Your years will never end.”
Proclaimer do you believe that the sun will not perish when the heavens perish? Do you think the sun remains and its years will never end?
Proclaimer, you used this link https://www.ntgreek.org/answers/answer-frame-john1_1.htm to defend your understanding of John 1:1c but that link does not defend your position at all. This is what the writer of that’s summation is proclaiming:
“…the word ‘God’ is used first in the sentence actually shows some emphasis that this Logos (Word) was in fact God in its nature. However, since it does not have the definite article, it does indicate that this Word was not the same ‘person’ as the Father God, but has the same ‘essence’ and ‘nature’.”
He is defending the translation of “the Word was God” as in a person with the same essence and nature of the God whom he was with, therefore God with God. In other words, the only begotten God was with God his Father in the beginning.
You might want to reread what the author of that post actually wrote.
He is defending the translation of “the Word was God” as in a person with the same essence and nature of the God whom he was with, therefore God with God. In other words, the only begotten God was with God his Father in the beginning.
I quoted it because it makes the point that the verse is talking about nature of which I believe and have taught from the beginning. Once that is established, then it is a matter of how one treats divine nature thereafter. Remembers that Believers can partake of divine nature too. And no one is saying that we will become God. Not here at least.
Further, when you say ‘God’ you are actually saying ‘the God’ because English capitalizes when Greek uses the definite article. For example, THE Jesus, THE Word, THE God, THE Peter. And you know that there is no definite article in John 1:1c. So when the author of that post says ‘God with God’, he is in essence actually saying ‘the God with the God’. And clearly the text isn’t saying that even according to that author
So I believe the author understands John 1:1c, but I think the conclusion he draws from this correct understanding regarding divine nature is flawed. Because he is saying that divine nature makes you God which clearly would then make the sons of God who partake in divine nature as God too.
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