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Gene: We have prexisting petrified trees that have turned to pure Cortez, that takes tens of thousands of years to happen…
How do you know that, Gene? Seriously… how do you personally know such a thing?
Gene: Mike…….when you create something you bring it forth from nothing, when you make something you make it from something that exists.
Genesis 1:21… So God created the great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters teemed according to their kinds, and every bird of flight after its kind.
Genesis 1:25… God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that crawls upon the earth according to its kind.
So you’re saying that all the sea creatures and flying creatures were created from nothing, but all the land animals were made from stuff that already existed? Are you sure? Why would that be? And what do you do with this verse…
Isaiah 43:7… Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Gene, how could God have created them from nothing, but also made them from things that already existed?
I have another theory: God and the writers of scripture used the interchangeable “create”, “make” and “form” to refer to the same action… just like we do today. My theory is clearly supported by many scriptures, while your theory is clearly contradicted by many scriptures.
Gene: God made the earth and all things therein. He took existing things and made something from them.
Berean: But who made the things that existed before?
Have you answered Berean’s question yet, Gene? I’d like to add to it… and what were those things made from?
Gene: God may have made this earth over many times, as fossil finding show, and destroyed it with water and started over again, yes there may have been all kind of creatures roaming this earth before man was ever made on it, and those creatures are now extinct DUE TO PREVIOUS FLOODING EVENTS.
Do you really want to get into statements like, “Well, maybe God did this, or maybe God did that”, Gene? You’re welcome to wonder about things we aren’t told in scripture, but I wouldn’t build any doctrines upon your imagination.
Also, the entire fossil record shows one single thing: Billions of dead things buried in sediment that was rapidly laid down by water – all over the world. Our fossil record is exactly what we’d expect from the ONE worldwide flood of Noah’s day. There is no reason to -or evidence for – imagining other mega floods. And there is certainly no reason to imagine that God made and re-made the earth many times.
Gene, God clearly told us that He made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in a matter of six days. ONCE. Not twice. Not three times or more. You are free to imagine anything you want. I’m just here to make sure you understand that there is ZERO scientific evidence or scriptures to support your imagination.
Exodus 20:9-11… Six days you shall labor and do all your work… For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them…
Gene, you claim that the heaven and earth are excluded from the things God made in six days. God Himself says that they are included. How do you deal with this contradiction scripturally (as opposed to just imagining things)?
Proclaimer: Clearly we have evidence of other epochs in the past. And are told in the Bible about other ages (worlds to come).
The only epochs/ages that we are told about in scripture are the ones that began 6000 years ago with the creation of our world, and the ones to come in the future. We are told that God’s spirit sons pre-existed the creation of our physical world 6000 years ago, but we aren’t told anything specific about those epochs/ages. For all we know, the day mentioned in Psalm 2:7 (the creation of Jesus) could have been the day before God started the six days of creating our world.
Better to stick with what the Bible teaches. It’s okay to imagine how things might have transpired, how things in heaven are transpiring right this second, or how things will transpire on the Day of the Lord and afterwards. But it is unwise to build any doctrines around the things we can only imagine – let alone proclaim them as if they are factual.
The only epochs/ages that we are told about in scripture are the ones that began 6000 years ago with the creation of our world
Yup. Did that already.
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
And of course, the scriptures are focused on God and man. Not these other ages of which we have observational evidence.
The bible supports this and doesn’t say that the earth is flat. But go right ahead and teach the exact opposite.
Mike
THANK YOU FOR THIS GOOD AND BEAUTIFUL POST.
Glory and Praise be to our God and His Christ who will soon return to do justice to his chosen ones.
👇
Psalm 33
…8Let all the earth fear the LORD! Let all the inhabitants of the world tremble before him! 9For he said, and it came to pass; He commands, and she exists. 10The LORD overturns the designs of the nations, He destroys the designs of the peoples;…
👇
Mat.8
[1] When he (Jesus) came down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
[2] And behold, a leper came and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if you will, you can cleanse me.
[3] And Jesus stretched out his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be pure. And IMMEDIATELY his leprosy was cleansed.AMEN
God bless
Proclaimer: Thank you for debating me on this Mike.
The word “debate” presupposes that both parties are presenting evidence, insights, and rational conclusions that are questioned and scrutinized. Since you have not once presented any of those things, this has been a case of me, Berean and Adam trying to educate you about what the Bible actually teaches, and you putting your fingers in your ears while screaming, “I’m right! You don’t know science! I win!” over and over.
Proclaimer: I find you are just regurgitating the same arguments that have been debunked or have equal alternate interpretations that do not conflict with observation.
If by the above you mean that I’ve had to repeatedly ask the same questions over and over because you refuse to answer them, then I stand guilty as charged. But make no mistake, you have neither “debunked” nor offered any “equal alternate interpretations” for any of the scriptural points we’ve repeatedly shown you.
Proclaimer: And you are bringing nothing new to challenge me with now.
Interesting – since I brought up a dozen or more brand new points/questions that I’ve never mentioned before just this past weekend. After pointing out that they were brand new arguments, I even said:
And we could have gotten to ALL of these things within the first few days of the Genesis discussion if you had been willing to just have an honest back and forth without all of the diversions and pontification and avoidance of direct, honest questions. (Post 900855)
Proclaimer: If it wasn’t for you guys and the Trinitarians, I likely wouldn’t have written as much.
Okay, I see you on your knees waving a white flag. I hear you pleading for me to just let you surrender because you think you’ll be able to save face. Request denied! I do not accept your surrender, nor will any quarter be given. I warned you that I would bring you to your knees, and that’s exactly what I’ve done. But I’m not finished until you either gird up your loins like a man and defend your honor – or block me from this site.
You may WANT to go slinking back into obscurity by changing the subject, pretending this slap down you got didn’t happen, and writing a piece on the six days of creation where nobody can challenge you to stand and defend your unscriptural and illogical claims – but not on my watch, buddy.
You started this war – and I aim to finish it. I’m calling you out as a petulant little child and a coward. Stand and defend yourself. Prove me wrong, dammit!
Exodus 20:9-11… Six days you shall labor and do all your work… For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them…
Proclaimer, you claim that the heaven and earth are excluded from the things God made in six days. God Himself says that they are included. How do you defend your claim against God’s?
Proclaimer: Yup. Did that already.
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Did what already? We all see the two scriptures you posted. We all agree that there will be “coming ages”. What we can’t see from those scriptures is that there existed any ages at all before the creation of our world… let alone other PHYSICAL ages.
Where are you seeing that in the verses you quoted?
Carmel: For God’s sake:
GENESIS 1:1 IT SAYSIN THE PLURAL: THE HEAVENS….. WHAT ARE THESE HEAVENS?
Genesis 1:1 also says in the plural: GODS….. WHO ARE THESE GODS?
Carmel: “THEN AT A CERTAIN STAGE GOT CORRUPTED AND DELUGED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME! Genesis 1:2”
Berean: Hi Carmel
Can you bring really biblical elements on this point, because what you say seems strange to me…
Carmel: Biblical elements are always within the wisdom of God furnished by the Holy Spirit to whom He pleases!
Berean, when a person resorts to claiming that the Holy Spirit personally taught them things, you can bet your bottom dollar that those things aren’t taught in the scriptures – or they’d just be able to show them to you in the scriptures. 😉
Carmel, we are told to test the spirits to see if they are from God, right? (1 John 4:1) What do we test them against? What did you use to test the spirit that you say told you this stuff?
Did what already? We all see the two scriptures you posted. We all agree that there will be “coming ages”. What we can’t see from those scriptures is that there existed any ages at all before the creation of our world… let alone other PHYSICAL ages.
Where are you seeing that in the verses you quoted?
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
AGES
Before → Now → For evermore
Now ✓
You obviously agree that we live in an age now
Future ✓
You have agreed already that there are ages to come
Past ☓
Now you only need to see the possibility of ages in the past.
The word “debate” presupposes that both parties are presenting evidence, insights, and rational conclusions that are questioned and scrutinized. Since you have not once presented any of those things, this has been a case of me, Berean and Adam trying to educate you about what the Bible actually teaches, and you putting your fingers in your ears while screaming, “I’m right! You don’t know science! I win!” over and over.
It’s really not my fault if you are willfully blind is it.
You have been given plenty of evidence.
Of course you can reject it. But rejecting something because it doesn’t agree with doctrine you hold to is foolish. You are doing exactly what the Trinitarians did here. Close your eyes.
Interesting – since I brought up a dozen or more brand new points/questions that I’ve never mentioned before just this past weekend. After pointing out that they were brand new arguments, I even said:
Okay good. Let’s go through them one at a time.
From what I read of your posts, you were just regurgitation that which is already debunked or seriously challenged.
Let’s start with your no 1 new piece of evidence. Just copy and paste the question. No need to write it again. Please just the question with a bit of context if needed.
i believe I have answered all questions that I have read. I am not interested if you do not believe my arguments, but that I have addressed them is the point. I’m always happy to look at new ideas and evidence. But I suspect this conversation will go the way of the flat earth. Debunked but not believed. That is fine. It could help inquisitive seeker types who feel that the scriptures do not actually teach a 6000 year old earth. So you have been useful in providing the questions. Thank you once again.
Okay, I see you on your knees waving a white flag. I hear you pleading for me to just let you surrender because you think you’ll be able to save face. Request denied! I do not accept your surrender, nor will any quarter be given. I warned you that I would bring you to your knees, and that’s exactly what I’ve done. But I’m not finished until you either gird up your loins like a man and defend your honor – or block me from this site.
Lol. No. It is about wasting time. The arguments have been addressed. I am not interested in trying to win an argument by being more persistent and forever repetitive. I have addressed your arguments and am happy to share my experience with anyone else who believes in a 6000 year old globe or pizza.
Anyhow, if you can be wrong about me surrendering, then what else are you wrong about? That is a legit question. God is my witness.
Proclaimer
The fact is all instances of ‘theos’ and ‘logos’ have definite articles in John 1:1-3 except the last mention of ‘theos’.
Me
The Gospel According to Saint John
Chapter 1
1
en arch: in the biginninghn o logoV : WAS The Word
kai o logoV: AND The Word
hn proV : WAS WITH/for
ton qeon: The God
kai qeoV hn o logoV: The Word WAS God
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE GOD, and the Word was GOD.THE WORD WAS NOT “THE GOD”
BUT
THE WORD WAS GOD
THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
God bless
BUT
THE WORD WAS GOD
THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
This is right. So the Word is not called The God.
So it is to be understood qualitatively.
Similar to Eve being man. But not the man.
It is about nature, not identity. The Man, the Logos and the God is identity.
So, the Word is NOT the God and Eve is NOT the man.
Proclaimer, post 900861 was also new info and new questions. How about addressing it?
And here’s another brand new concept for you. I’m going to try to explain it in one of your favorite analogies: a guy creating a virtual world on a computer.
So you’re the guy who created the virtual world/matrix. You created this world to operate on “sols” – the duration of virtual time from one sunrise to the next. But you’ve also programmed the virtual world to run at a speed of one sol per every earth hour. So every seven earth hours, you can witness an entire week of sols pass by in the virtual world that you created. Understand?
So one day one of your virtual people ask you how they and their world came to be. In reality, you programmed the basic world in one day, separated water from land on the second day, created their virtual sun on the third day, and created them on the fourth day.
Now… how exactly would you explain that to your virtual people who only know sols, and don’t comprehend “days” – or how you experience time as compared to how they do?
Would you tell them you did it in 4 sols – leading them to believe that you did it in four of THEIR sunrise to sunrise periods – which would amount to only four of your HOURS?
In other words, would you LIE to them and let them believe that you did something in four HOURS that really took you four earth DAYS?
Or would you tell them the truth that you created their world and them in 96 sols – so they had a truthful understanding of how much time it actually took you in reality?
Are you getting the picture? You once joked that God doesn’t have an even bigger sun that rises and sets and defines HIS days, right? And God is the one who created the very concept of a day (just like you created the concept of a “sol” for your virtual people), right? And God is the one who DEFINED the term “day” for us (just like you DEFINED the term “sol” for your people), right?
So why on earth would YOU tell your people a LIE and say you created them in 4 sols when you didn’t?
And why on earth would GOD tell HIS people a LIE and say He created them in 6 DAYS when He really didn’t?
Is it sinking in? Days were created for us – not for God. Sols were created for your virtual people – not for you. So when talking to your virtual people, you would put the timing of any event into sols that they understood – not “days” that they have never heard of. Likewise, when talking to the people FOR WHOM He created days in the first place, God would put the timing of events into OUR terms that WE understand.
If He said He created us in six DAYS – then He is using days the way WE understand them. He wouldn’t say He created us in six “GODDAYS” – that we’ve never heard of and don’t understand. Nor would He create us in six “GODDAYS” that last a billion years each or whatever – and then tell us that it was six DAYS.
You would not tell your people that you made them in four DAYS – because they have no idea what that even means. Nor would you tell them you did it in four SOLS – because in reality it took you 96 of their sols to do it. You would be LYING to them. Just like God would have been LYING to us if He told us six DAYS – but it was really six very long “GODDAYS” that we didn’t even know about or understand.
Proclaimer
Me
Identity of the One True God: God the Father of Jesus Christ
Identity of Jesus Christ: The Only Begotten Son of God.
Nature Of the only true God: GOD.
Nature of the Only Begotten Son of God in the biginning : GODAfter incarnation : God AND man
God bless
Divine Nature
Identity of the One True God: God the Father of Jesus Christ
Identity of Jesus Christ: The Only Begotten Son of God.
Nature Of the only true God: GOD.
Nature of the Only Begotten Son of God in the biginning : GODAfter incarnation : God AND man
Agreed, as long as the meaning of theos is qualitative or about nature. In English we capitalize if there is a definite article.
And what do we call that nature?
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.
So the nature is divine and we will partake too.
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