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God has turned my mind to investigate the conception of Jesus and the actual Greek words used. I found that Matthew uses the word Gennaō in Matthew 1:20 and Luke uses the word Syllambanō in Luke 1:24,31,36 and Luke 2:21. The former means to engender while the latter means to grasp. The reasons the two authors used different words seems to be caused by their apparently different sources for the accounts of the birth of Jesus. Matthew’s source appears to be Joseph while Luke’s source appears to be Mary.
I would say that these two words about the conception of a human being tell us something about the Greek culture that spawned the use of those words. It seems the Greeks and possibly the Hebrews of the First Century believed that the male engendered life and the female grasped it in her womb.
Matthew tells us in 1:20 that the Holy Spirit brought Jesus into existence within Mary’s womb. Luke tells us that us in 2:21 that Mary grasped Jesus within her womb and that before that an angel had told her what to name him. The same term is used by Luke in describing the conception of John the Baptist in Like 1:24 and Luke 1:36. This shows that Luke considered his conception, except for being miraculous, no different from that of John the Baptist. The words of the angel are that Mary will grasp a son in her womb and will give him the name Jesus.
That is what scripture tells us about the conception of Jesus.
kerwin
Why is it, that the truth is so hard to understand?
Why is there a need to go into the Greek or Hebrew to look for understanding?
The Bible tells me that all things were created by God through Jesus; that means, Jesus existed before his birth as a human being.
Yes his birth was a miracle to us, but not to God; nothing is impossible with God.
John the baptist had a miraculous birth as well, but only because both his parents were beyond childbearing age, they had to do what all married couples have to do to have children, the old fashion way, have sex.
By the power of God's Holy spirit he changed Jesus spirit nature into our human nature, placing him into Mary's womb so that he would be born as all of us are.
What is there so hard to understand?Georg
George,
Scripture tells us Jesus was engendered in Mary's womb and not beforehand. The question is why so many refuse to believe it.
Since we know that scripture does not contradict then it seems reasonable to view those scriptures that appear to teach that Jesus was never engendered or was engendered outside Mary's womb.
Are they as literal? Are they speaking of Jesus?
kerwin
This is what the Bible tells me; God created all through his Son. His Son was the spokes person for the Father since no man has heard the Fathers voice. This tells me he existed before he was born as a human, so he had to be a spirit being, or call him an angel if it makes you feel better.
God then send him to earth by changing his angel/spirit nature into a human/people nature, by means or way of Mary. It should be obvious to every body that God did not have sex with Mary, that's how she conceived or whatever you want to call it; then he was called Jesus, but he was still God's son.
Why do you find it necessary to come up with all these confusing words, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Piglatin or whatever. No wonder you're confused. Jesus was not brought into existence in Mary, he was born a human/people through her. When Jesus says he is the beginning of God's creation, you have to Greek to find out if that's true? or what is so hard to understand when you read in English that Jesus is the first born of all creation, seems plain enough to me. It's when you don't believe the Bible when you get confused. Jesus was, as you like to put it, engendered, the same way all the angels/spirit beings were engendered; how do you think they came into being or existence?
Believe what the Bible says and you wont have any problems.Georg
genesis says that god made all and then his holy spirit went to and fro over the earth also.
i have yet to see where in the most crucial place in the bible to tell one that god was not alone would say something, yet i cannot find it after reading it.
also “the word” is used to describe god's actual inspired words, the bible and also god using his word to create the earth but saying”and god said let there be light” etc.. also i beleive that the holy spirit has been refered to the word.
has one ever heard of the expression ” i stand by my words”
??
how can this be, you might ask, not eveything is literal.the bible also says that in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god. and same for god.
the wisdom(word) of god was always there as god was just always there. that his wisdom wasn't something that he learned but is what he is also. they both were always.
jesus is god's wisdom & words incarnate via visible copy of god as stated in bible, or
after being changed, that the scripture means and the word is a god, yet then say he is a angel.
it seems that the verse is changed and made it to say is a god to have jesus and god easily put in a nice package for them.
people fight and defend that their father and son is just like us human experience yet, i have yet to hear one say that , a father and son are in each other or are one or only can do the will of one, etc..
there unity is so much more and to think there is none and that they are so seperate is not depictided in the bible clearly at all. one only argues that the status of one is lower in relation and standing. however that is not a solid ideal for argument for it has no bearing in god' complex unity at all.
also people calling others ignorant becasue they do not come to the same conclusion to another is i'm sure not acceptable to god or jesus and would call you out for that.
Hi brother Kerwin,
I appreciate your new thread on the conception of Jesus in Mary. But no preexistence-believer would agree with your logic of Jesus being taken his origin in the womb of Mary. This is where many non-trinitarians fail to realise the logic. I know you believe that God was the source of Mary's conception but not any human agent. Here I differ with you along with many true Jewish believers stating that their Messiah would not be Virgin born but will be born to normal human parents. If you don't believe in original sin there is no necessity of believing in this fabricated story of Vigin birth of Jesus.Hope you will think over again.
Peace to you
AdamTo all including George and Peace2All,
It is through the New Covenant that God creates everything through and for Jesus. If he had already done it then there would not be a need to do it and Jesus' death was in vain.
That is what scripture tells me.
2 Corinthians 5:16-19(NIV) reads:
Quote So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Ephesians 2:10-13(NIV) reads:
Quote For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— [ui]remember that at that time you were separate from Christ[/u], excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.To all.
Georg, you have it right, Jesus was Gods ORIGINAL creation (Rev.3:14). He (Jesus) “Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature”, (Col.1:15)
You don't have to twist scripture. to see what scripture plainly says.Scripture also says that God appointed Jesus “to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth –” (Eph.1:10), notice “TO HEAD UP ALL IN THE CHRIST” Please realise that ALL means ALL, not just part.
This is why Jesus is refered to as the “Alpha and Omega”, the beginning and the ending. The following explains this… The “Alpha” (Jesus was Gods ORIGINAL creation (Rev.3:14) also… The “Omega” the end of Creation …(1Cor.15:24-28) …thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Notice “AT THE CONSUMMATION,” the completion, end of, creation. When Christ will hand over the Kingdom to the “Father”.
I find Kerwins description sadly lacking in the understanding of scripture.Blessings.
Chosenone,
The first and last and alpha and omega are terms used to mean the only one. If only one exists then it is both the first and the last as well as the beginning and end.
Isaiah 41:4 makes that case as God is pointing out he is the only God.
Jesus is the only one God has appointed as King over everything in heaven and on earth.
This does not mean God made Jesus either greater or equal to himself.
Nick Hassan in thread Gennao wrote:
Quote
Hi,
This word is found in scripture in many places.Acts 13
“32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I BEGOTTEN thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm , Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption”Number 1080
Transliteration:
gennao {ghen-nah'-o}
Word Origin:
from a variation of 1085
TDNT:
1:665,114
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1, be delivered 1, misc 3Total: 97
Definition:
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's workAnd since this verse is quoted from Ps 2 we can find the Hebrew-Aramaic equivalent.
Number 3205
Transliteration:
yalad {yaw-lad'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
867
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
beget 201, bare 110, born 79, bring forth 25, bear 23, travail 16, midwife 10, child 8, delivered 5, borne 3, birth 2, labour 2, brought up 2, misc 12Total: 498
Definition:
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
(Qal)
to bear, bring forth
of child birth
of distress (simile)
of wicked (behaviour)
to beget
(Niphal) to be born
(Piel)
to cause or help to bring forth
to assist or tend as a midwife
midwife (participle)
(Pual) to be born
(Hiphil)
to beget (a child)
to bear (fig. – of wicked bringing forth iniquity)
(Hophal) day of birth, birthday (infinitive)
(Hithpael) to declare one's birth (pedigreeSo does it relate to conception?
No it relates to bringing forth of a child by a mother or a father.
God brought forth a son alone from His own being without conception or pregnancy as an image of Himself.
The monogenes SON OF GOD.
Like with the English Language context is important to determine what definition of a Greek word is correct. The only place I know of off hand that “gennao” is used in relation to Jesus' conception is Matthew 1:20.
The context is an informing Joseph that Jesus was not fathered by another man. The angels words were to the effect “for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” This obviously eliminates some possibility about what “gennao” means in this case. It is certainly not the bringing forth of the child by it's mother. It is also not speaking of being born or converted. In fact the only one that fits the context is to cause. The one doing the causing is the Holy Spirit.
The interesting thing about the Holy Spirit is that the word is feminine in Hebrew and neuter in Greek though a few exceptions may exist. From that it can be concluded that Jesus was not fathered in the usual way. Still the evidence is that he began in his mother's womb through the power of the Holy Spirit.
So how is that process about brother Kerwin?
You mean to say Jesus was created in the womb of Mary?
Jesus was special creation of God like the first Adam?Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 16 2010,14:01) So how is that process about brother Kerwin?
You mean to say Jesus was created in the womb of Mary?
Jesus was spcial creation of God like the first Adam?
I suppose you could say that. On the other hand he was probably closer to the creation of Eve since God made her from a part of Adam and Jesus had to have been descended from David through Mary. I assume God used he egg cell but I don't believe I can actually prove that with the evidence presented in scripture.It is not actually that hard of a concept since God does that with species other than man. It is harder to figure out how it resulted in a male offspring. That would have taken a drastic change in the x chromosome as the y chromosome is smaller and structured differently. Still it is no harder to believe than the creation of Adam.
hi kerwin
we walk by faith so two possibilities ether you believe or do not ,the only way we will know for sure is at the return of Christ at the end of times,or after we past away,
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 16 2010,20:47) hi kerwin we walk by faith so two possibilities ether you believe or do not ,the only way we will know for sure is at the return of Christ at the end of times,or after we past away,
I am trying to strengthen the faith of those that believe by this thread as I am convinced we must believe that Jesus achieved what God calls us to achieve and he had no special advantages but complete faith to achieve true righteousness.In addition all human beings can achieve complete faith even in the most testing times as Jesus demonstrated .
Have faith Jesus spoke truly when he promised those that hungered and thirsted to be like God in true righteousness that they would achieve it by obeying all his teachings as he has done it. All things are possible for God.
Kerwin………we definitely agree on that Post, as to our potential to the likeness of Jesus Christ. That is what it is all about , IMO
kerwin
the best way to strengthen your faith is to put it in practice on the inside and the outside,
on the inside so God see you and your motifs if they are good he will bless you.
on the outside fore we have to recognize him openly to all to be a testimony of Christ.in this way you will in deed receive in your hearth and mind the confirmation of is presence with you.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2010,05:47) kerwin
the best way to strengthen your faith is to put it in practice on the inside and the outside,
on the inside so God see you and your motifs if they are good he will bless you.
on the outside fore we have to recognize him openly to all to be a testimony of Christ.in this way you will in deed receive in your hearth and mind the confirmation of is presence with you.
The definition of faith I am using is belief not religion. What you describe is putting my religion into practice.Faith is that when Jesus states that blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled then I believe that I can and will become righteous as God is righteous through obeying Jesus' teachings.
note: I am convinced that those that obey all of Jesus' teachings are those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.
God is faithful and will work through my faith to fulfill his promise through Jesus.
I also believe that when you walk by the Spirit you will not sin and thus Jesus' promise will be fulfilled.
Walking according to the Spirit does put my religion into practice.
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