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Paladin……….Well said, i agree with what you have written, especially Number 39. Most are preconditioned by past associations and teachings. Good Post> imo
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Hi P,
Is all this intellectual stuff of any value?
Are we not defending and promoting and sharing the seeds of God's word?
This window on the world shows that the message of God through His servants still remains anathema to most men.Hi P,
Seeds cast on land choked with weeds and thistles cannot grow and produce a crop.
The land must be good soil and cleared in repentance and baptism.
Then the watering of God's Spirit can be effective.But do not expect a 1% take on this land or expect much growth as tradition and godlessness abound. Nonetheless the opportunities are given and we cheerfully work leaving the crop to God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,13:48) Hi P,
Is all this intellectual stuff of any value?
Are we not defending and promoting and sharing the seeds of God's word?
This window on the world shows that the message of God through His servants still remains anathema to most men.
Hello Nick.You ask if this “stuff” is of any value. I intend to offer a thread of premises following the pattern laid down in this OP.
I may have to struggle with my demons, for the clay is tainted, but I will also struggle to retain that Holy Spirit that moves me to write things I did not know before beginning to write on these pages. I will attempt to honestly be “led by the Spirit” and to God be the glory. Pray with me that this does not fall to the clay.
It is my intent to begin with certain numbered paragraphs in the OP and present logical arguments following the premise of the paragraph, and see what developes.
Paragraph two;
When one offers an argument to sustain a premise, it should be offered as a logical arrangement of thoughts based upon sound principles of debate, and understood within basic parameters related to all the areas of intercommunication involved.
Argument was given in another thread, that the Hebrew plural noun ONLY carries the plural meaning IF it is followed by a plural verb. This has not been refuted, just fussed at.
On another post, argument was offered that all one has to do to verify the truth of the Hebrew plural noun/singular verb premise, is check it against the Septuagint Greek Testament.
This has not been refuted. Whenever Hebrew plural nouns are followed by singular verbs, the Septuagint has a singular noun; i.e, Hebrew Elohim, followed by singular verb, has Greek singular noun Theos; whereas, if the Hebrew plural noun is followed by a plural verb, the Septuagint has the Plural Greek noun theoi.I could offer references throughout the scriptures demonstrating this, but I am too often told my posts are too long, so based on that advice, I will let the reader do their own homework to verify what I offer only as a clue to understanding the scriptures. What the readers do with it is on their conscience.
For two thousand years, the Septuagint has been accepted among men as “just a bad translation of the Hebrew into the Greek.” The fact is, it is not a translation at all. It is a separate revelation from God, for the purpose of bringing the Gentile nations into the fold of God's sheep, but it was kept in safekeeping by Hebrew hands, till the fulness of the Gentiles was come. “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.” [Rom 3:1-2]
God presented enough of the gospel story to lead the Jews to Christ, but told the rest of the story in accord with prophecy; “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.” [Isa 28:9-16]
God promised to teach his people with “another tongue,” and this he indeed did through the Septuagint. This is brought out by Paul “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
All the New Testament writers quoted from the Septuagint as the primary source whence their quotations were drawn. When Jesus quoted from the old testament it was mostly from the Septuagint, though it must be aknowledged, when the Hebrew said what he needed to make his point, he did not hesitate to use it. He would take a verse or a phrase, or a word, from one source, and mix and mingle it with another part from another source, hesitating not one whit over whether it was Hebrew or Greek source material.
The reason was twofold; 1) to being the Jews to Christ; and 2) to hidw what God was planning from the eyes and ears of man, so that Satan would not learn of God's plan for the salvation of men, and fail to slay the son of God, “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”God published a story for hi schildren, in two languages for a reason, that did NOT go ignored. When the Jews were converted to Christ, they published the word to the whole world, and converted the Gentile nations, just as was designed by God in the old covenant.
One God, who shared HIS spirit with his people; and who begat a son raised from among men, who died and was raised from the dead, to begin a new type of creature, the deadborn (firstborn from the dead).
God published a mystery that was preached by Paul to the whole world, the logos of God, a concept of “It is no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me,” Christ becoming flesh in me, and in you, so that Christ, upon handing the kingdom to the Father when the last enemy is destroyed, God will be all in all.
This is logically correct, scripturally correct; grammatically correct, and inspired of God.
To successfully refute it one must show it is grammatically incorrect, scripturaly faulted, illogical, or doctrines of men; i.e., not taught in scripture.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,10:46) Hi P,
So actually for you logic rules?
No. For me, using the rules of logic work if one is consistent.There is no point in establishing a major premise and a minor premise, then stating a conclusion if the opponent has no idea about logic in argument.
Logic works in a logical argument.
Grammar works in a grammarical argument.
Scripture works in a scriptural argument.
I think an argument , to be well rounded, approaches perfection if one is able to include elements of all skills available.
But to present a well laid out argument from ANY perspective, only to be responded to wtih “yabut, whatabout John 1:1” well… it kinda takes the argue our of argument. it become simply a swap of doctrine, which is useless.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,21:53) Hi OP,
Logic is of blind Man.
Thy Word is truth.
That's an issue for another thread, which I may start at a later time.NH………To think logic is not used by GOD and is not part of His word is foolish to say the least. It would be like saying what ever you say makes no sense, where did you ever come up with such foolishness brother. God said come Lets (REASON TOGETHER) go find out what that means. To say logic is of (blind) man is like saying Logic has no place in our understanding even God's Logic. Pure foolishness IMO.
peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,09:49) G,
God does try to reach men through reason but He would ask that we learn from His scriptures.
When we are at our most rational, we are at our most spiritual.We develope the word “logic” from the Greek “logikos” which MEANS rational, spiritual.
1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the logikos, that ye may grow thereby:
The sincere milk of the logical, the beginning or foundation of the rational, is what should appeal to the Christian.
On another board, I participated in a discussion of “Is belief in God logical?” I find it is much more logical than a disbelief in God.
Another form of the same word tells us that to obey the most basic of God's laws to Christians is also the most reasonable, or appeals to our logical need.
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your logikeen service.
logikos adj acc neut sing
[UBS] logikos rational, spiritual
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,10:40) Hi P,
So you are by preference a Philosopher?
Scripture gives such an approach short shrift.
Wrong my friend! It gives short shrift to “philosophies of men,” and “vain deceits.”Philosophy is simply a love of wisdom in certain things. We are to cultivate wisdom in spiritual things, and not in worldly considerations. There are two kinds of philosophy; one that is of men, and one that is of God. We are to love the one, and avoid the other.
Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
I Kings 3:5 In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee. 6 And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. 7 And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in. 8 And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude. 9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people? 10 And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing. 11 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;
12 Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee. 13 And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days.
1 Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.
1 Kings 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Proverbs 16:16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!
Christians are warned to follow the one, but not the other.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.5385 philosophia {fil-os-of-ee'-ah}
Meaning: 1) love of wisdom 1a) used either of zeal for or skill in any art or science, any branch of knowledge. Used once in the NT of the theology, or rather theosophy, of certain Jewish Christian ascetics, which busied itself with refined and speculative enquiries into the nature and classes of angels, into the ritual of the Mosaic law and the regulations of Jewish tradition respecting practical life.Hi P,
So we are to be transformed by renewal of our minds, we are to attain to the mind of Christ.
None of this comes by carnal musings but we feeding on the flesh of the son of God, the Word.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,11:49) Hi P,
So we are to be transformed by renewal of our minds, we are to attain to the mind of Christ.
None of this comes by carnal musings but we feeding on the flesh of the son of God, the Word.
Now we are in agreement.When God says to us”Come, let us reason together” what do you understand that exercise of “reasoning” to be?
Hi P,
If you wish to compare the shallow wisdom of men with that of God try 1 Cor 2.
Only the Spirit of God can show us the kingdom and the far deeper ways of God.The Scriptures are the wisdom of God.[lk11.48]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,06:11) Hi P,
If you wish to compare the shallow wisdom of men with that of God try 1 Cor 2.
Only the Spirit of God can show us the kingdom and the far deeper ways of God.The Scriptures are the wisdom of God.[lk11.48]
I have never wished to compare the shallow wisdom of men with the wisdonm of God. It is only in response to your questons I have even attempted to show you that God requires us to persue wisdom, but NOT the wisdom of men.NH………the (word) wisdom rather shallow or Deep is still wisdom. Logic is as great a part of GOD Wisdom as anything else is. God's Logic is sound and His words make sense , it man lack of Knowledge and understanding, thats the problem. God plainly said come lets reason together, reason is a logic process. To equate Logic of GOD'S word as of the world is foolishness. Wisdom of God, employs Godly logic and is sound and gives meaning to his words, if you can't understand what God's words mean you lack both wisdom and logic. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
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