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That is not a conclusive argument in my mind.
The word fullness [4138] pleroma – is also used to describe the fullness of time Gal4:4 (when the time had fully come)
Also in Rom 11:25 to mean all of the Gentiles that will be saved,
and in Rom 11:12 concerning Israel- but translated as 'fulfillment' in the NASB
In short there are many applications of the same word so we cannot assume it is used uniformly throughout.It is certain that we do not have an anointing comparable with the 'fullness' that was in Jesus as far as to the degree of power and majesty that was displayed.
And yet it is also clear that it is the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead that dwells in us – the spirit of his Father.I do not think that the anointing we have received of God can be called the fullness of Deity as is mentioned in Colossians 2:9
Of him it is said that the fullness that indwelt him was 'Theotes' – Deity – not a power and nature – God Himself. Deity denotes a person.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Who wrote the Ten Commandments? God – how? He used His finger.
Jannes and Jambres claimed to perform their tricks by the “finger of God”.
And Jesus said he cast out devils with the “finger of God”.
God also has a right arm, and a right hand by which He saved Israel on numerous occasions in the OT (Ps 44:3, Ps 89:13, 98:1)
Moses is said to be the hand to which the arm of God (his power) was connected (Is 63:12, Ex 6:1).
His own right arm brought salvation to Him (Isa 59:16)
We understand the term 'right hand man' to mean a chief aide or advisor or enforcer.
When Jesus is said to be on God's right hand we understand this to mean the right hand of His blessing and also His authority.Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 12 2006,06:27) That is not a conclusive argument in my mind.
The word fullness [4138] pleroma – is also used to describe the fullness of time Gal4:4 (when the time had fully come)
Also in Rom 11:25 to mean all of the Gentiles that will be saved,
and in Rom 11:12 concerning Israel- but translated as 'fulfillment' in the NASB
In short there are many applications of the same word so we cannot assume it is used uniformly throughout.It is certain that we do not have an anointing comparable with the 'fullness' that was in Jesus as far as to the degree of power and majesty that was displayed.
And yet it is also clear that it is the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead that dwells in us – the spirit of his Father.
Hi Malcolm,
None of us has the full anointing of Jesus but together we do share in it with him as head. And we are in Him as Christ is in Him. I do not see scripture saying that we do not follow Christ in this way either.
We do.
God's manifestion in him is the same as it is in us, but to completeness. It was the Spirit of God that was lied to in Peter that caused the death of Annas and Sapphira.Hi,
Trintarians say that God is one being with three persons in that being.
Yet they say that each person is an equal deity.
A deity is a god that is worshiped.
How can a deity
not be a being?Something is amiss here methinks.
Some argue that there is not proof that Jesus was begotten prior to his earthly incarnation.
What does the word 'beget' mean? To produce offspring – to make a child.
Was Jesus a son before he came to earth? If not what then? God?
No he is the son of God, he existed as a son before he ever came to earth and remains yet the son of God – that is my opinion.Hi Malcolm,
The wisdom of God says in Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”Would God have said this
about conceiving a son from Mary
through HIS SPIRIT in the womb of Mary?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 05 2006,11:23) For what reason was/is Yahshua called the Son of God? LUKE 1:35 (NASB)
The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.That's a rock-solid biblical answer.
I agree with you Isaiah 1:8 on the quote above about eternal sonship. It is unbiblical and there is not one scripture that says this ever happened. However, saying that I do not hold the view of the Trinity anymore, so I am left seeking and will continue to do so. I believe Jesus is the son of God, and find it amazing that in the geneology of Jesus there are two sons of God, one with a capital for the Son and one with a lower case for the son. Son of God [Jesus] and son of God [Adam]. Have we come to this conclusion because of what we believe or is there a way to determine it from the Greek reason for this…Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 26 2006,20:34) Hi,
Trintarians say that God is one being with three persons in that being.
Yet they say that each person is an equal deity.
A deity is a god that is worshiped.
How can a deity
not be a being?Something is amiss here methinks.
Agreed Nick,I find the whole “three person's in one what” idea rather confusing and as they say a mystery that leaves me wondering who the heck they are praying to… if the majority of them even know.
A prayer I heard in college last week said the following and it winds me up inside.
Heavenly Father,
Holy God (is this addressed to the Trinity when he says “God” – I don't know which God he means when he says this, but then I am led to believe he is praying with Jesus in mind as he says next), we worship you Jesus Christ, you are so lovely and Holy Spirit God we pray for your presence to come to empower us…. so on and so on… In the name of the only God, Jesus Christ, Amen.In Prayer:
Now I believe God hears their prayers, but I am concerned that Jesus and the HS seem to take preeminance in the meeting place these days. “It's all about Jesus” is the expression I hear constantly and “Come Holy Spirit” – like he is not there or something… I hardly ever hear the Father being mentioned or prayed to and sometimes he is not even addressed in prayer. This was never ever Jesus' intention – he taught us what we ought to pray. Whatever for if we pray contrary to what he taught – if that is how he taught us why do we do it our own way. So much prayer is offered to Jesus, or the the Holy Spirit when Jesus himself, when asked how to pray, did not say “pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit but to pray to the Father in Jesus' name” [Jesus Name = Authority – that which was given to him by the Father and which he has given to us].In salvation:
We are saved when we come back to the “Father” though Jesus Christ. The way to the Father's presence is through Jesus and Jesus said we come to the Father only through him [Jesus]. It is not the other way round. Why, because God (ok i will clarify – the Father) appointed him (the Man Christ Jesus, the Son of God, the Mediator etc) to be the giver of salvation and eternal life. We have Salvation is by Jesus' blood, through the death on the cross, redeeming us from the sin that separates and restoring the marred image of God in us. We have eternal life through Jesus' obedience to the Father's command, that which Jesus did and taught us and this will be to us eternal life [in John 12:49-50] It is our acceptance of Jesus as Lord and by obedience to Jesus' words [that were given to him by the Father] that the imperishable Word will come alive in us. [for Jesus did not speak of his own accord but that which was told of him by the Father – hmm wonder why Jesus never prays to the Holy Spirit]Can I ask, so why all the focus about “coming to Jesus”, when the reason we come to Jesus is to gain access into the Father's presence. Is this not the full explaination of salvation – stopping at the accepting Christ and the work of Christ is not giving the full gospel. We come through Jesus to gain access to the Father which is the ultimate purpose. Not to decry the work of Christ, but we have elevated him to a position that he never took himself. He was exalted to a place and has inherited a more excellent name than the angels. We come to the Father (the Greater) through the Son (the Lesser), and we bow to Jesus as Lord (the Lesser) to the glory of God the Father (the greater). Phil 2:11
In worship:
A day is coming says Jesus when we will worship the Father in spirit and truth, no mention of worshiping the HS or Jesus here, was that a oversight by the Holy Spirit. It is not to worship in the Holy Spirit and Truth but in spirit and truth. There were times where Jesus was worshiped, but more in honour and respect of that time than in homage to a deity.All the above things do not make the Father equal to the Son, even if you say words do not mean what they say ie: “greater” or what is written is not as it seems, yet the poor HS gets left out of the picture a lot of the time. Oh sorry, it is through the power of the HS that this is all accomplished. Power eh!!! 😉
Where is the Holy Spirit's throne in Heaven? Can anyone tell me? He gets left out a little too much… in practically every epistle that Paul writes there is no mention of the HS in the greeting – i guess that was because he was here on earth and did not have to be mentioned. Again an oversight by the HS perhaps … he was so busy dictating the words to the writers that he forgot to mention his part in the equation or was it that it was not even on Paul's mind. Any ideas anyone? Does not seem Equal to me… just something i have noticed and cant seem to work out how [He] fits into the grand scheme of things in eternity… does anyone know?
When I say thank you to Jesus for the blood he shed, and then thank God for sending his son… I am praying to two, not one. Two of the three beings, persons (evidently they are persons but not persons as we know it and cannot be explained as such but are shrouded in mystery, so that none can understand. No doubt and to keep people in darkness and confusion as many are) but Jesus nowhere taught this – he came to reveal Him who is true… God the Father. JESUS who came to reveal the Father, said to pray to the Father, to worship the Father, to come to the Father through him and, not to Himself or to the Holy Spirit. So I will obey and let God judge me for obeying when I stand before him one day. I can only live by what is revealed to me. So if I am wrong, in humility I ask God to reveal himself to me with clarity but for now this is my revelation of who the Father is to me and who the Son is.
One more thing, I find it strange that the Holy Spirit is spoken of as a person but when I ask my lecturers at college they say (he is referred to as the relationship between the Father and the Son) How is a relationship a person and how is Spirit which is neuter, labelled a He. Neuter is not a he, nor a she – but an it. IS that correct. Any greek scholars out there to help.
Hi A7,
Thanks.
The 'clever' trinity theory so avidly defended as an intellectual concept is useless in reality. No man prays to a trinity God no matter what they may tell you. But on accepting as a foundation of faith the concept their whole view of God Himself becomes perverted.
No longer is their one God to pray to but now TWO deity/gods
and a Spirit to invoke[by whose authority]?“If” Jesus was eternally existant “within” the Father for all eternity ….. would that be like Levi paying tithes to Melchisedec because he was in the loins of Abraham? (Heb 7:9-10)
Hi sscott,
No he became a son who was sent into the world.
But did we sin in the loins of Adam?This thread attempts to uphold equality between the father and the Son, one of the weak foundations of the unscriptural trinity theory.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,19:43) Hi sscott,
No he became a son who was sent into the world.
But did we sin in the loins of Adam?This thread attempts to uphold equality between the father and the Son, one of the weak foundations of the unscriptural trinity theory.
But isn't the creation account of Man supposed to show us something about the Father and the Son?
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. (Gen 5:2)
So what was “Eve” was within Adam from Adams creation. Wouldn't the be a picture that what is the “Son” – the Word – was within and part of the Father from the beginning?
Picture:
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (Gen 2:21-22)
From Adam …Eve was brought forth. In some sense always within Adam but granted to have life apart from Adam.
So the Son or the Word coming from the Father and also granted to have life apart from the FAther.
Example:
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (John 5:26)
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (John 6:57)[/I]
Hi sscott,
Scripture says the Word was WITH GOD, not IN GOD, in the beginning.
1Jn 1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)”
Thoughts and plans are within a person.
Words are expressed.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,20:17) Hi sscott,
Scripture says the Word was WITH GOD, not IN GOD, in the beginning.
He proceeded forth from the Father and was with the Father:John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,20:31) Amen sscott,
First he proceeded forth from God,
and was with God
then he came from God in heaven.
So in some sense the Genesis account is a picture. What is “Eve” was within Adam and was brought forth from Adam and then was with Adam and given her own life or life within herself.So what is the Son -the Word- was in the Father was brought forth from within the Father and then was with the Father…..granted to have life apart from the Father. (john 5:26, john 6:57)
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. (Gen 5:2)
Hi sscott,
I agree. And the unity is natural between the man and his missing rib as between God and His firstborn son and his restored human creation within the Son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2006,18:12) Hi Is 1.18,
If Jesus is God then he is not equal to God is he?
Exactly.Even when you are equal to something it is also understood that you are not that which you are equal to.
5=3+2
Manchester United is equal to Chelsea.
New Zealand is equal in area to Japan.They are all different in identity, but in value they can be the same.
If Jesus is equal to God, then he is not God, but like him.
Simple and basic enough for anyone to comprehend.
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