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Terra,
You have scripted plain truth in your last post. I was thrilled to read it.
God has blessed you with in that post.LU, you also recognise the truth in pierre's post, so you too are blessed in that.
Now for the refinement.
There was never a 'nothing'. There is never a nothing at anytime.
What is Dust?
Chemical elements…haven't I mentioned this already?
All elements are compressed ENERGY, and God is ALL Energy.
All things are 'from God', all things are 'of' God, all things 'are' in God and God is 'In' all things.
God took of Himself and created physical elements from pure energy and now man has discovered that physical elements is composed of pure energy and is congratulating himself for 'creating' energy from smashing elements together…rather ironic wouldn't you say?
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 02 2010,17:10) Terra,
You have scripted plain truth in your last post. I was thrilled to read it.
God has blessed you with in that post.LU, you also recognise the truth in pierre's post, so you too are blessed in that.
Now for the refinement.
There was never a 'nothing'. There is never a nothing at anytime.
What is Dust?
Chemical elements…haven't I mentioned this already?
All elements are compressed ENERGY, and God is ALL Energy.
All things are 'from God', all things are 'of' God, all things 'are' in God and God is 'In' all things.
God took of Himself and created physical elements from pure energy and now man has discovered that physical elements is composed of pure energy and is congratulating himself for 'creating' energy from smashing elements together…rather ironic wouldn't you say?
JAall i have said is in scripture,it is not mine but Gods word,
you say;
God took of Himself and created physical elements from pure energy and now man has discovered that physical elements is composed of pure energy and is congratulating himself for 'creating' energy from smashing elements together…rather ironic wouldn't you say?——————————————————
how do you know that what you say is true?
this to me is only men view ,not from God.and there is nothing ironic in God s work.
Pierre
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 02 2010,04:13) But combine the two quotes and the response is …uh, duh…what!!
I'm sorry JA…….which exact sentence led you to believe I thought Jesus was God?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2010,14:26) You are using two completely different concepts and giving them the same word 'create.' In the beginning God created man from the dust, not from 'His loins.' And that was the beginning of the creatures.
Hi Kathi,So the angels are not spirit “creatures”?
I'll respond to your post later. I gotta go somewhere.
peace and love,
mikeGood job Mike,
You are pointing out to me that the angels were the beginning of the creatures. At last!! You are so rightQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,05:53) Thank you D-linquent! You have just proved MY point.
Your three little squiggly lines on the computer screen, while REPRESENTING the wind…….ARE NOT ACTUALLY THE WIND.
Scripture says Jesus is the VISIBLE image of the INVISIBLE God.
Think it out man. One person mentioned is INVISIBLE, the other is NOT.
Listen D, Jesus has a God just like we have a God. His God is the exact same Person as our God is. In fact, Jesus tells us that his and our God is “the ONLY true God”. Jesus was a Son and a servant to his God when on earth, and scripture says he is STILL a Son and a servant to the One he STILL calls “my God”.
He is the exact visible representation of his invisible God because he came to us speaking the words his God told him to speak to us. He behaved like his own God would have behaved, because he was always in connection to his God through his God's Holy Spirit. Also because he has had probably millions of years sitting at the right hand of his God – and spending that much time that close to another person would teach him exactly how that Person will react to almost any given circumstance.
Jesus came to reveal God to us…..he is NOT “God Revealed”.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
Im so surprised how quickly i got lost in my own thread….
Lol you didnt get the point.The Symbol “~~~” or in your cave man language “squiggly lines” Means the Wind,
It Represents the Wind, it is Defined as the Wind, it is the Wind.
When we think about Wind, we see the symbol.
When we talk draw or even write about the Wind we use the Symbol.everything that characterizes the Wind is also found within the symbol.
Jesus is that exact same thing but in a deeper since of course!
It goes beyond that, which is he is the Visible (whats known about God-the finite) of the Invisible (the Unknowable, the infinite).Your trying to think about it in the terms of persons, i am not.
Its like yuor body is the symbol of your style and matches yoru personality in what you “CANNOT” see.God also calls him God in hebrews as we discussed.
Actually Mike, i thought this would spark your intrest, i found this one verse thats i have not seen pop up in Heaven.net yet.
but i know it will spark your intrest, so ill make “another” thread about it.Millions of years? the earth is only been around like 6 thousands years from the days of Adam.
And Years did not exist before the First day.
What is the “right hand” of God? if he is like everywhere and eternal. I think your going beyond scripture here and into conjecture.So Jesus was Taught how to act?
He is God revealed, because he is everything that we can know about God.
Oh Check it out i found another verse that talks about knowing Jesus.
1 John 5:20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,05:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 30 2010,19:01) but are we going to talk more abotu this thread or what i believe, if so might as well talk about that in our debate.
To tell the truth……I'm bored with our debate.I didn't know if you thought Jesus came FROM his Father, but just wasn't “created”, or if you thought he had no beginning at all.
Now I know what I'm up against.
If you think Jesus has always existed, please answer Micah 5:2 first. It speaks of Jesus' “beginning” being from ancient days.
peace and love,
mike
SAy homeboY!?Yuor the one who Wnet OfF tOpiC bro!
wE wEre SuPose to GeT inTo oMniPreseNCE,hmmmmm so you left the interagation room after so many found memories about the Alpha and the Omega…..hmmm
Well again it doesnt say beginning it says he came forth from the days of old, from everlasting.
I think you misunderstood the language.
First of all the concept of eternity can only be defined by man's perception.Its like saying, think back as far as you can think back to and theres God.
God runs Eternity, eternity does not run God.
IF you think that this means that Jesus has a beginning, that also means that God has a beginning.
For example.
Godcalls Himself “the Ancient of Days” Daniel 7:9,
does this mean that God had Ancient Days?
or did he just speak in the manner that man speak so that he can get his point across?
Habakkuk 1:12
Isaiah 43:13,
Hebrew 7: 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
consider other verses,to be honest, its 4am, and i was writing one long post to Bod, it took me 3 hours to write.
And im worned out already…umm basically what im saying is that the scripture should be intepreted as a person who came from eternity.
We know that Jesus was sent, we also know that God is the anceint of days,
and there are so many other scriptures that also talk about God being from “afar” and stuff like that, so it doesnt mean he had a beginning.umm hebrews 7 talks about the Endless life, it doesnt suggest beginning eithers.
also consider
Matthew 2:6
John 7:42
i think even proverbs 8 refers to him being before the beginnig.
he is from everlastingim really out of it, its 4:27 now,
Adios mike, ill post more laterQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52) Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:Christ was Created claim:
Based SOLELY on this scripture many have stated that Christ has been created in the beginning.
Which i strongly believe is false.
the only scripture that is commonly used to prove this claim Is Col1:15The logic and evidences they use to prove this claim is
1. Because he is Son he was created, since he is a child he was born, therefore created.
2. That he is the beginning and he was created so that everything was made through him. (context of Col 1)
3. He is called firstborn in other places.
4. first of all creation since he was first born amoung creatures
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;Notice, “THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD”.
Georg
Mike,
Shall i get the forum to post up everytime you post unscripturally?
Then, if you can, if it is at all possible, which it appears it isn't, you could post your counter claim in a 'short post'.
Mike, just answer 'yes, go ahead' or 'no, i concede that i may have posted unscripturally now and again in ignorance'
Which is better, which would be better, which will be better, mike?
Why JA?
What is it about you that makes you come after people like this? Are you a Christian?
Go post insults and accusations about someone else for a while…..I need a break from you.
This forum is for discussing scripture JA. Either take a scriptural stand and scripturally defend it or pipe down.
You don't ever seem to actually get involved in the discussions here, but instead just pop thread to thread looking for any words someone posted that you can pick a “verbal fistfight” over.
Are you a part of the discussion on whether or not Jesus was created? If so, try to spend your time devleoping your own defense to how YOU believe instead of nit-picking what everyone else posted.
Thanks,
mikeHi Dennison and Kathi,
I'll get to your posts probably tomorrow. I've been babysitting a two year old all weekend………enough said?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,04:27) For example.
Godcalls Himself “the Ancient of Days” Daniel 7:9,
does this mean that God had Ancient Days?
or did he just speak in the manner that man speak so that he can get his point across?
Habakkuk 1:12
Isaiah 43:13,
Hebrew 7: 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hi ShimmerGood point.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2010,23:14) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,04:27) For example.
Godcalls Himself “the Ancient of Days” Daniel 7:9,
does this mean that God had Ancient Days?
or did he just speak in the manner that man speak so that he can get his point across?
Habakkuk 1:12
Isaiah 43:13,
Hebrew 7: 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hi ShimmerGood point.
WJ
lol hi WJ,
thx but im,not shimmer but thx anyways =)Mike,
You ain't seen nothing yet. Keep opposing me and you will find out.You cannot lose an argument. Try one with JustAskin.
I have spared you in the past but your own arrogance claimed me as your opposer.
Mike, learn how to be submissive and i will lift myself from you.
You love to debate? What use is debate when it never ends with you.
When you realise you are wrong you slither and slide like the very ones you accuse.
Mike, if you were posting scripturally and with Holy Spirited backing then no one could oppose you. Yes, they may gainsay but they would also know in themselves that you were backed to a greater force.
As it is, all they see is the 'Spirit of Mikeboll', 'Mikeboll, the new God of HeavenNet' who took up the firebrand when Trinity fell and brought in 'the Gospel according to Mikeboll'.
Have you checked the number of 'debate threads', how many start off saying, 'Mikeboll verse….' or '…verses Mikeboll'?
How many have an ending?
How many retain the point?
How many just go 'on and on, an Ariston'?
What is the main cause? When Mike is stuck he blames his opponent. Maybe it's true, maybe, sometimes, but mostly it is because you cannot hold your line of debate, whether by weakness in your style or deliberately to get you out of a hole.
Either way, it means you try to cover the smell of defeat with strong cologne, 'toilet water', 'eau de toilette', umm, isn't there another name for it?
You like puzzles, don't you. What's the difference between 'Perfume' and 'Cologne' in terms of smelly spray stuff? (I had to say that so you didn't say that one is a European City!!)
So Mike, learn to concede, be Godly and honest. Others will see you give way and bless you for your concession, otherwise they will continue to see you as they see you now.
Mike, who opposes my posts, even to say JustAskin is wrong, yet ask the same question of Mikeboll, please.
Quote (Baker @ Oct. 03 2010,08:11) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52) Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:Christ was Created claim:
Based SOLELY on this scripture many have stated that Christ has been created in the beginning.
Which i strongly believe is false.
the only scripture that is commonly used to prove this claim Is Col1:15The logic and evidences they use to prove this claim is
1. Because he is Son he was created, since he is a child he was born, therefore created.
2. That he is the beginning and he was created so that everything was made through him. (context of Col 1)
3. He is called firstborn in other places.
4. first of all creation since he was first born amoung creatures
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;Notice, “THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD”.
Georg
Hi Georg,
Did you ever see these different translations of Rev. 3:14NET ©
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation:NIV ©
biblegateway Rev 3:14
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.I think these two are more accurate and understandable. They certainly shed a different light on the text. Don't you think?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2010,13:09) Hi Dennison and Kathi, I'll get to your posts probably tomorrow. I've been babysitting a two year old all weekend………enough said?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
No hurry…get out those dominoes Have a fun time!Mike,
I have posted my opinion on 'pro'created. That is why I asked for the definition.I asked a question and you trying to dodge. I will bite and hang on.
Why are you avoidung an answer, Mike.
Ha ha, i know why… Please Mike, do the right thing for once.
I see the thread is created by WJ. Anyone would imagine that you did.
Why you so eager to be seen as leader. If you need to work this hard, then maybe it's not for you. Gifts of leadership are given naturally by God and that one will embrace it easily. You struggle to assert your views. Why? Perhaps because you not a natural leader, but a forced one.
Your refusal to answer my question shows you are not honest. You avoud answering in the same manner you accuse others of avoiding answers. Why are you afraid to answer, Mike. Would it grate against your principle if false honesty?
I think that it is so…Now the whole forum sees you wriggling and writhing n the end of a hook.
Try to escape this hook, Mike.
Answer the question and show us you are a man, else be prepared to have your Master Debatorship exposed…
Kathi:
Quote If I built a house THROUGH a particular contractor then we both get credit for building the house. I may have drawn up the design of the floor plan, forked out the money, chosen all the finishes, hired the contractor BUT the contractor certainly GETS CREDIT for the actual building of the house. Why do you not want to give the Son ANY credit?
Ah…….but those bolded words above carry the answer to our disagreement Kathi. I wish to give Jesus EXACTLY the amount of credit the scriptures say is due him. You are the one who wants to take it upon herself and just “think God will be okay with it” if you bestow upon the Son MORE credit than is due him – to the point you are asking our God to share His glory with another.Kathi:
Quote You mean biased translation. The NWT inserts 'other' twice which you won't find in the Greek. The words 'by' or 'through' still give the Son credit with the Father for creation.
John 1:3 NWT
3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.You can check with NETNotes and see that “came into existence” is what the actual Greek says here. But don't you and I both know that it really means all things BESIDES HIMSELF came into existence through him? Doesn't it really mean, “all OTHER things……”?
Kathi:
Quote There is no praying in Jesus name at the end of this.
29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.I asked:
Quote Can you show me anywhere in scripture where a “firstborn” of any particular group is NOT a part OF that group? Hint: There are none. You answered:
Quote I can show you where the word for 'creation' is not only applied to the created but also is used for the creation act.
So your answer to MY question is “No”, right? And what are you saying about the word “creation”? Is Jehovah “the act of creation”? Or did Jehovah PERFORM the “act of creation”?Kathi:
Quote I can show you where the word for 'creation' is not only applied to the created but also is used for the creation act.
Again, Jehovah is neither “created” nor “the ACT of creation”.Kathi:
Quote if the verse said 'the creator of all creation' you wouldn't have so much trouble seeing this.
Let's take your thoughts from a later post I read and run with them for a minute, okay? You asserted that I “finally” realized that angels are the “first created beings”, as I remember. So instead of “creator of all creation”, let's keep it “firstborn of all creation”, but apply it to the angels……the beings you think were the first created.If it said, “Gabriel is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION”, then would you be bending over backwards to make “prototokos pasa ktisis” mean something other than what it says? Would you be “guessing” it must mean that Gabriel is “preeminent over all creation”, and then pushing that “guess” down our throats as if it were scriptural truth? If not, then why would you behave that way when it is about Jesus?
Kathi:
Quote The creator is part of creation, right?
Absolutely not. The Creator PERFORMED the act of creation…..He is NOT a part of that creation He brought into existence. You are playing with words and trying to twist the meaning of the scriptures to fit into your own self-originated belief.Kathi, let's just cut to the chase here.
Nehemiah 9:6 NIV
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.Doesn't this sum up what we disagree about Kathi? Jehovah ALONE made the heavens and earth and everything in them. And the “multitudes/hosts/army” of heaven WORSHIPS Jehovah. Jesus is a part of the “hosts” of heaven. But, just to make sure what we do is aligned with scripture……
NASB Matt 4:10
Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
Only one question here Kathi: Who does the Son of God himself say we should worship ONLY?Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD (YHVH) says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD (YHVH), and there is no other.Who is our “Creator” Kathi? Once again…..
Isaiah 44:24 NIV
“This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD (YHVH), who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,This makes it pretty clear that God created “alone” and “by himself”, but does Jesus imply that he is a “co-creator”?
Matthew 19:4 NIV
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'
Here we see Jesus specifically referring to his God as “the Creator”.Once again, we're at the same spot Kathi. You can twist “firstborn” and “creation” all you want, but there are CLEAR AND CONCISE scriptures that say God ALONE is our Creator and God ALONE is to be worshipped. You must weigh those CLEAR AND CONCISE scriptures against your own “wishes” and “understandings”. One more for the road:
Revelation 10:6 NIV
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!That first bolded word above is not “THEM” Kathi
……but “HIM” – as in ONE. And it says “Him”, who created the heavens……..AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM. Isn't Jesus IN the heavens Kathi? Does is say that “HIM” created all that is in the heavens……EXCEPT JESUS?peace and love,
mikeSF:
Quote The Symbol “~~~” or in your cave man language “squiggly lines” Means the Wind,
It Represents the Wind, it is Defined as the Wind, it is the Wind.
When we think about Wind, we see the symbol.
When we talk draw or even write about the Wind we use the Symbol.
But is it the actual “wind” itself…..or a symbol representing the actual wind itself?SF:
Quote God also calls him God in hebrews as we discussed.
Actually Mike, i thought this would spark your intrest, i found this one verse thats i have not seen pop up in Heaven.net yet.
What? The verse in Hebrews 1 that says, “because God, YOUR God has set you above your companions”? So even as Jesus is referred to as “god”, which only means “mighty one”, it is made abundantly clear that it is his own God who set him in a high place.SF:
Quote Oh Check it out i found another verse that talks about knowing Jesus.
1 John 5:20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Yes, and like I keep saying in our debate, the ultimate goal here is to know God, not Jesus. We don't want to make it only as far as the mediator between us and God…….we want to make it all the way to God Himself Dennison. This scripture affirms that. It says the Son of God has given us an understanding that we may know GOD, and be in GOD……even in His Son. God's Son is the second greatest being in existence. But God sent His Son in order for us to be able to someday dwell face to face with HIM, not just His Son.It's like the Press Secretary has gone to great lengths to set up an audience with the President Himself…….but you only want to get as far as the Press Secretary. (Not to mention, you think the Press Secretary, who speaks the President's words, actually IS the President who gave him those words to speak in his behalf.)
peace and love,
mike
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