Christ was not created!!!!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2010,14:11)

Mike no i will not ,the reason why i posted that ,most of your opponents have those programs and so have a advantage on you

You WON'T buy if for me?   Bummer, man.  

They have many “advantages” over me.  But I'm “scrappy” and am not afraid to do a little research.  Their best laid plans are toppled by the words of God every time.  It just takes me a little longer to find the right words of God at the right time.

All the info I need is right there in the scriptures Pierre. I'm sure you know that.

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,22:38)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 29 2010,04:04) Mike!  It seems no matter what you or I put down as prove they just imply something else.  Even clear Scriptures, which makes no sense to me…. Keep up the good work…. Time will come and all will come to the understanding of the truths…… I just can't think of anything else to say to them, it is ironic and so weird to ignore clear Scriptures.  Even Jesus own words…… I might just do what my Husband is doing and stay away…. There are to may Brethren here that want it their ways or no way……that to me is unfortunately…..Peace Irene Irene, I told you my points, i believe perfectly what It says, But the BIBLE does not say that “Jesus was created” or that “God created the Son” or “the Father created the majestic son in the beginning” The bible does not say, “In the beginning God created his Son who through him the heavens and earth were created, this is the first day” The bible does not say this You see!?? I do believe in the bible, its you and Mike who say otherwise. Maybe you should stay away, you dont want to listen, AND, You attacked me! I had no intentions of being rude nor actually having a debate with you! but you were the one who was like “shame on you bad boy, shame one you” Very judgemental of you, when i responded to your questions with the intentions of Fellowship in mind. You didnt have peace when you spoke with me, you attacked me, What your doing is not what your stating. Anyways…….. I hope you understand what im actually saying instead of making up false accusations. Much love,

SF
those are your words;;
The bible does not say, “In the beginning God created his Son who through him the heavens and earth were created, this is the first day”

The bible does not say this

You see!??
————————————————————I do not agree with you.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 All things were made through him. Nothing that has been made was made without him.

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.
Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

SF you say that ;;I do believe in the bible————-

but only if you understand it with your mind,THIS IS NOT UNDERSTANDING FROM GOD ,you are restricting God s spirit to come to you and give you wisdom and understanding,

explain to me all the scritures that i have shown you
and see if Christ is not the first of all creation.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 29 2010,22:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,23:29) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 29 2010,00:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,23:02) Mike, Quote 1.  The “firstborn” of any group is ALWAYS a part of that group.  So Jesus MUST be a part OF creation in order to be the firstborn OF creation. He is part of the creation in that He performed the act of creation with His Father.  The creator is definitely part of the creation account.  He is the Firstborn of all creation as the co-creator, not as the created.  Firstborn does not mean first created Mike, it means firstborn. Kathy were that it say that Christ is the co-creator,God is the creator i have not seen it written other wise,did you ?? trough him and for him would that mean that he did it The creator and the creation are one,because no creator no creation so were there is creation there must be a creator. Christ say scriptures is a participant of creation not a producer of creation. Pierre Pierre, You are right, the creator and creation go hand in hand.  You can't have one without the other.  Our creator happens to be the Father and the Son, they both take part to produce creation: 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. NET Kathy 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. Kathy,Kathy my friend ,What Paul says here is one God from whom are all things then we have Christ through whom we live BECAUSE HE GIVES IS LIVE IN SACRIFICE SO THAT WE MAY OBTAIN THAT LIVE, it as nothing the do with creation ,there is only one creator God the father ,Christ is a instrument by which God create all things. Pierre

Pierre,
When I post a scripture and I think it means A and B, then you come along and say, no, no…it is just B, then I can come back and tell you, no, no…it is A and B and we get no where. That is the reason that I am going to show you a quote from an early church father about the verse we have different views on as my witness:

Quote

er. 5. “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are gods many and lords many; yet to us there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we unto Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” Since he had said, that “an idol is nothing” and that “there is no other God;” and yet there were idols and there were those that were called gods; that he might not seem to be contradicting plain facts, he goes on to say, “For though there be that are called gods, as indeed there are;” not absolutely, “there are;” but, “called,” not in reality having this but in name: “be it in heaven or on earth:—in heaven,” meaning the sun and the moon and the remainder of the choir of stars; for these too the Greeks worshipped: but upon the earth demons, and all those who had been made gods of men:—“yet to us there is One God, the Father.” In the first instance having expressed it without the word “Father,” and said, “there is no God but one,” he now adds this also, when he had utterly cast out the others. Next, he adduces what indeed is the greatest token of divinity; “of Whom are all things.” For this implies also that those others are not gods. For it is said (Jer. x. 11.), “Let the gods who made not the heaven and the earth perish.” Then he subjoins what is not less than this, “and we unto Him.” For when he saith, “of Whom are all things,” he means the creation and the bringing of things out of nothing into existence. But when he saith, “and we unto Him,” he speaks of the word of faith and mutual 114 appropriation (οἰκειώσεως), as also he said before (1 Cor. i. 30.), “but of Him are ye also in Christ Jesus.” In two ways we are of Him, by being made when we were not, and by being made believers. For this also is a creation: a thing which he also declares elsewhere; (Ephes. ii. 15.) “that He might create in Himself of the twain one new man.” “And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” And in regard to Christ again, we must conceive of this in like manner. For through Him the race of men was both produced out of nothing into existence, and returned from error to truth. So that as to the phrase “of Whom,” it is not to be understood apart from Christ. For of Him, through Christ, were we created.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxi.html

You are right that we exist through Christ because of His death on the cross bearing our sin, but it was through Him also, that the race of men was produced out of nothing into existence.

So, I have produced one witness of an early church father who says that all things were created through Jesus and it is speaking of the original creation and the rebirth creation.

Can you produce a witness that says what you think?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2010,22:49)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 29 2010,22:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,23:29) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 29 2010,00:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,23:02) Mike, Quote 1.  The “firstborn” of any group is ALWAYS a part of that group.  So Jesus MUST be a part OF creation in order to be the firstborn OF creation. He is part of the creation in that He performed the act of creation with His Father.  The creator is definitely part of the creation account.  He is the Firstborn of all creation as the co-creator, not as the created.  Firstborn does not mean first created Mike, it means firstborn. Kathy were that it say that Christ is the co-creator,God is the creator i have not seen it written other wise,did you ?? trough him and for him would that mean that he did it The creator and the creation are one,because no creator no creation so were there is creation there must be a creator. Christ say scriptures is a participant of creation not a producer of creation. Pierre Pierre, You are right, the creator and creation go hand in hand.  You can't have one without the other.  Our creator happens to be the Father and the Son, they both take part to produce creation: 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. NET Kathy 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. Kathy,Kathy my friend ,What Paul says here is one God from whom are all things then we have Christ through whom we live BECAUSE HE GIVES IS LIVE IN SACRIFICE SO THAT WE MAY OBTAIN THAT LIVE, it as nothing the do with creation ,there is only one creator God the father ,Christ is a instrument by which God create all things. Pierre Pierre, When I post a scripture and I think it means A and B, then you come along and say, no, no…it is just B, then I can come back and tell you, no, no…it is A and B and we get no where.  That is the reason that I am going to show you a quote from an early church father about the verse we have different views on as my witness: Quote er. 5. “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are gods many and lords many; yet to us there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we unto Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” Since he had said, that “an idol is nothing” and that “there is no other God;” and yet there were idols and there were those that were called gods; that he might not seem to be contradicting plain facts, he goes on to say, “For though there be that are called gods, as indeed there are;” not absolutely, “there are;” but, “called,” not in reality having this but in name: “be it in heaven or on earth:—in heaven,” meaning the sun and the moon and the remainder of the choir of stars; for these too the Greeks worshipped: but upon the earth demons, and all those who had been made gods of men:—“yet to us there is One God, the Father.” In the first instance having expressed it without the word “Father,” and said, “there is no God but one,” he now adds this also, when he had utterly cast out the others. Next, he adduces what indeed is the greatest token of divinity; “of Whom are all things.” For this implies also that those others are not gods. For it is said (Jer. x. 11.), “Let the gods who made not the heaven and the earth perish.” Then he subjoins what is not less than this, “and we unto Him.” For when he saith, “of Whom are all things,” he means the creation and the bringing of things out of nothing into existence. But when he saith, “and we unto Him,” he speaks of the word of faith and mutual 114 appropriation (οἰκειώσεως), as also he said before (1 Cor. i. 30.), “but of Him are ye also in Christ Jesus.” In two ways we are of Him, by being made when we were not, and by being made believers. For this also is a creation: a thing which he also declares elsewhere; (Ephes. ii. 15.) “that He might create in Himself of the twain one new man.” “And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” And in regard to Christ again, we must conceive of this in like manner. For through Him the race of men was both produced out of nothing into existence, and returned from error to truth. So that as to the phrase “of Whom,” it is not to be understood apart from Christ. For of Him, through Christ, were we created. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxi.html You are right that we exist through Christ because of His death on the cross bearing our sin, but it was through Him also, that the race of men was produced out of nothing into existence. So, I have produced one witness of an early church father who says that all things were created through Jesus and it is speaking of the original creation and the rebirth creation. Can you produce a witness that says what you think?

Kathy

this is your quote;You are right that we exist through Christ because of His death on the cross bearing our sin, but it was through Him also, that the race of men was produced out of nothing into existence.

this is false;the scriptures says FROM DUST YOU CAME AND TO DUST YOU RETURN.

THIS IS ALSO YOUR QUOTE;;So, I have produced one witness of an early church father who says that all things were created through Jesus and it is speaking of the original creation and the rebirth creation.
——————————-
i do not understand this new word of yours;;rebirth creation ??

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2010,22:00)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2010,14:11) Mike no i will not ,the reason why i posted that ,most of your opponents have those programs and so have a advantage on you You WON'T buy if for me?   Bummer, man.   They have many “advantages” over me.  But I'm “scrappy” and am not afraid to do a little research.  Their best laid plans are toppled by the words of God every time.  It just takes me a little longer to find the right words of God at the right time. All the info I need is right there in the scriptures Pierre.  I'm sure you know that. peace and love, mike

Mike

nothing can stand against the truth of God,
it will burn all and consumed by fire all the false believes

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2010,06:48)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,16:01) Why would Paul state that Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God (that we know who is a living God) and than say he is firstborn of all creatures after words? Wouldnt it make more sense if it were backwords? No.  It wouldn't matter if Paul said, “he is the Immanuel, he is the firstborn from the dead, he is the image of God…., etc”. He is listing things that Jesus is.  It doesn't matter to the context here which one he says first.  But if you would think for a minute with a clear mind, the fact that Jesus is the image OF God Himself should be enough to make it clear that he is NOT God Himself. mike

Actuallly IT does matter, what is written.

This is what your saying,

lets say this symbol means ” ~~~” Wind, and though we can never see Wind, this symbol “~~~” is WIND.

The Symbol is the image of the invisible wind.

Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God. Same thing.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2010,06:54)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,16:52) Now that i have answered your curiousity can we stop talking about beliefs, and talk about the Thread? much love old man, Absolutely my deranged juvenile delinquent. Dennison, do you believe Jesus always existed as a being? Or do you think God caused him to exist a some point? mike

Awesome im a Delinquent!

1.Yes,

2. I believe Jesus is the result of God particpating within this world.

IF Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God, I also believe that Jesus is the Temporal of the Eteranal, the Finite of the Infinite.

but are we going to talk more abotu this thread or what i believe, if so might as well talk about that in our debate.

D——linquent

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2010,09:17)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,22:38) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 29 2010,04:04) Mike!  It seems no matter what you or I put down as prove they just imply something else.  Even clear Scriptures, which makes no sense to me…. Keep up the good work…. Time will come and all will come to the understanding of the truths…… I just can't think of anything else to say to them, it is ironic and so weird to ignore clear Scriptures.  Even Jesus own words…… I might just do what my Husband is doing and stay away…. There are to may Brethren here that want it their ways or no way……that to me is unfortunately…..Peace Irene Irene, I told you my points, i believe perfectly what It says, But the BIBLE does not say that “Jesus was created” or that “God created the Son” or “the Father created the majestic son in the beginning” The bible does not say, “In the beginning God created his Son who through him the heavens and earth were created, this is the first day” The bible does not say this You see!?? I do believe in the bible, its you and Mike who say otherwise. Maybe you should stay away, you dont want to listen, AND, You attacked me! I had no intentions of being rude nor actually having a debate with you! but you were the one who was like “shame on you bad boy, shame one you” Very judgemental of you, when i responded to your questions with the intentions of Fellowship in mind. You didnt have peace when you spoke with me, you attacked me, What your doing is not what your stating. Anyways…….. I hope you understand what im actually saying instead of making up false accusations. Much love, SF those are your words;; The bible does not say, “In the beginning God created his Son who through him the heavens and earth were created, this is the first day” The bible does not say this You see!?? ————————————————————I do not agree with you. Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Jn 1:1 In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Jn 1:3 All things were made through him. Nothing that has been made was made without him. These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” SF you say that ;;I do believe in the bible————- but only if you understand it with your mind,THIS IS NOT UNDERSTANDING FROM GOD ,you are restricting God s spirit to come to you and give you wisdom and understanding, explain to me all the scritures that i have shown you and see if Christ is not the first of all creation. Pierre

Terra rica,

I can repost an old post that you made to long ago, when i first started here,

Do you really want to go down this road again?

Your picking at me, and your starting to irritate me,

Look at the scriptures you just posted,
Just read them again to yourself,

Look at the scriptures of John 1:1 you posted,
does it say that Jesus was created?

no it does not, it Says he was “already there”

How can you say im stricting and not believeing?

Who are you to make such a judgement,
You need to go and pray, and you have not done it enough,
clearly because your making the same accusations, again and again.

lol,
Lets start with
1.Jn 17:24- For God LOVEd Him before the Creation of the world.
2. Jn 1:1- it says he was already there!! it doesnt say that God created him.

3. all things were made through who?
4.- offspring of David, so does this mean he didnt pre-exist accoriding to you?
5.mt 20- has nothign to do with creation.

My gosh your just ignorant,

I have no desire to debate with you logically,
If you want to speak in Spirit, i can telll you that you read the posts with cristizim and Judgement in your heart,

Your mind is slaved to only what you think, and your ears are closed.  

You no different from a Pharasie who calls everything Evil,
Your more like that Pharasie who thanks God for not being like us,

:Learn to speak in Humility and learn how to speak in Love, and in fellowship,

When im wrong, i do admit, and when i dont know something i admit it,

I do not know everything, but I know Him who does,

And theses discussions, i can say whatever i want to say, even if its a Stupid, Curious, Question, but i have every right to ask.

And if I want to speak out of fellowship, i have every right to as well.

You and Irene, are Judges, believing in your own self-righteousness, and easily call others fools, when they did not rebuked you.  
You rebuke left and right, north and south, east to the west,

The Lord called you to spread truth! but not through rebuking your own brothers and Pride.

Did Paul rebuke Peter when he set away from the Gentiles in hypocripsy?
No, He approached and corrected him! but he did not rebuke him!

You have no love in your words, as usual.

I know that you love God,
But if you cannot love your brothers who you can see,
How can you say that you love God who you Cant see?

If you cant love Me, Pierre, and you cant Get control of yourself and start looking in the spirit than you are truely lost in your own pride.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote

Kathy this is your quote;You are right that we exist through Christ because of His death on the cross bearing our sin, but it was through Him also, that the race of men was produced out of nothing into existence. this is false;the scriptures says FROM DUST YOU CAME AND TO DUST YOU RETURN. THIS IS ALSO YOUR QUOTE;;So, I have produced one witness of an early church father who says that all things were created through Jesus and it is speaking of the original creation and the rebirth creation. ——————————- i do not understand this new word of yours;;rebirth creation ?? Pierre

Pierre,
You have a language barrier issue,

Thats why most of your repsonses are wrong.

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2010,16:42)

Mike nothing can stand against the truth of God, it will burn all and consumed by fire all the false believes Pierre

Hi Terraricca,

The rudiments.
Excellent; Terraricca!

Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world,
and not after Christ.

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and [the rudiments] shall melt with fervent heat, the
earth also and the works that are therein
shall be burned up. (2Cor.3:15)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 30 2010,18:57)

lets say this symbol means ” ~~~” Wind, and though we can never see Wind, this symbol “~~~” is WIND.   The Symbol is the image of the invisible wind. Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God.  Same thing

Thank you D-linquent!

You have just proved MY point.

Your three little squiggly lines on the computer screen, while REPRESENTING the wind…….ARE NOT ACTUALLY THE WIND.

Scripture says Jesus is the VISIBLE image of the INVISIBLE God.

Think it out man.  One person mentioned is INVISIBLE, the other is NOT.

Listen D, Jesus has a God just like we have a God.  His God is the exact same Person as our God is.  In fact, Jesus tells us that his and our God is “the ONLY true God”.  Jesus was a Son and a servant to his God when on earth, and scripture says he is STILL a Son and a servant to the One he STILL calls “my God”.

He is the exact visible representation of his invisible God because he came to us speaking the words his God told him to speak to us.  He behaved like his own God would have behaved, because he was always in connection to his God through his God's Holy Spirit.  Also because he has had probably millions of years sitting at the right hand of his God – and spending that much time that close to another person would teach him exactly how that Person will react to almost any given circumstance.

Jesus came to reveal God to us…..he is NOT “God Revealed”.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 30 2010,19:01)

but are we going to talk more abotu this thread or what i believe, if so might as well talk about that in our debate.

To tell the truth……I'm bored with our debate.

I didn't know if you thought Jesus came FROM his Father, but just wasn't “created”, or if you thought he had no beginning at all.

Now I know what I'm up against.

If you think Jesus has always existed, please answer Micah 5:2 first. It speaks of Jesus' “beginning” being from ancient days.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,21:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2010,19:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,16:23) So, the Father and the Son were part of the act of creation, the created beings were part of the act of creation also.  Just sayin' is all. Hi Kathi, God created cows.  Is God a part of the “group of cows”? God ALONE created……scripture says so plain and clear.  He chose to do that THROUGH Jesus, so I think it's fair to say Jesus played a part, though he is NEVER given the title of “Creator” or even “Co-Creator” in scripture. God created me THROUGH my parents.  Does that mean my parents are “Co-Creators” with God? And as far as your definition for “ktisis”, when “creation” is used for “the act of creating”, it is clear from the context.  For example, “God's creation started many years ago.” It does not and never will mean that our God who created everything is a part of the “group of created things”.  In order to be a part of that group, you have to be a “created thing”.  Jesus is not only a part of that group, but the firstborn of that group.  But that is only what the inspired word of God tells us…….you may view things differently.   peace and love, mike Mike, Really, the cows?  That is no comparison to what we are talking about. The Son is not given the title of 'Creator' or 'Co-creator' but He is given the credit, so with or without the title mentioned, He is said to have created all things. You said: Quote And as far as your definition for “ktisis”, when “creation” is used for “the act of creating”, it is clear from the context.  For example, “God's creation started many years ago.” The very next verse (Col 1:16) it talking about the act of the Firstborn as the creator, so don't try to tell me that He, as the creator, isn't in context. Think about this…can you be the Creator of all creation and not be created?  If so, then you can be the Firstborn of all creation and not be created.  Don't you see how that works?  He was the Firstborn of all creation as the firstborn AND co-creator as you see in the next verse in Col 1.  You have said that you will not say something is black when it is white in scripture or something to that effect.  However, you are saying 'firstborn' and meaning 'first created' and thus you are calling what is black as if it were white.

Mike, Mike…where's Mike??

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kathi,

It's the last post on page 14.

mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2010,22:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2010,13:37) The Son is not given the title of 'Creator' or 'Co-creator' but He is given the credit, so with or without the title mentioned, He is said to have created all things. Jesus is NEVER given the credit of creation.  The closest the scriptures ever come to saying anything close to that is MAYBE in Hebrews 1, where Paul could be crediting Jesus with laying the foundations of the earth with his own hands. That one is “iffy” though, because he could just as easily be speaking of God Himself in the middle of the passage.  And the fact that God Himself is said to be the One who did that leads me to think Paul was in fact speaking of God. The scriptures YOU allude to are the ones where it is stated that things came to be THROUGH Jesus, but trinitarian translations like to use the word “BY” instead. But by using the word “BY”, they go directly against the scriptures where God said He created everything ALONE. And they are cool with this because they think Jesus IS God anyway…….so what's the difference? Kathi, just understand 1 Cor 8:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Get it?  All things came from (or were created BY) God.  All things did NOT come FROM God AND Jesus. Kathi: Quote The very next verse (Col 1:16) it talking about the act of the Firstborn as the creator, so don't try to tell me that He, as the creator, isn't in context. Try a more accurate translation: Col 1:15-16 NWT 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. You can stick with your “BY” translations and feel all happy inside because you think it agrees with YOU.  But don't forget, it disagrees with the bulk of scripture, both OT AND NT. Acts 4:24 NIV 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. They prayed this through the name of God's holy servant Jesus, so I don't think they were including this “servant” of the God who made everything as a “co-creator”. Kathi: Quote Think about this…can you be the Creator of all creation and not be created?  If so, then you can be the Firstborn of all creation and not be created. Can you show me anywhere in scripture where a “firstborn” of any particular group is NOT a part OF that group?  Hint:  There are none. Kathi: Quote You have said that you will not say something is black when it is white in scripture or something to that effect.  However, you are saying 'firstborn' and meaning 'first created' and thus you are calling what is black as if it were white. I am doing no such thing.  If “Zed” was the firstborn of all cows, then “Zed” absolutely MUST be part of the “group of cows”. If Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, then Jesus MUST be part of the “group of created things”. When I begot my son, with the help of God, I CREATED a new life where there was not one before. Scriptures tell us God can create beings from dust, from rocks, from dead bones……so why can't he create a being from His own “loins”. You get so hung up on the word “create”.  For some reason you think that if Jesus is “begotten”, it is an honor.  But if he was “created” by his wonderful loving God as the first of His works before all ages, this is somehow a dishonor to him.  Yet Jesus proudly tells us he is “the beginning of the creation of God”.  I just don't get it. peace and love, mike

Mike,
Ahhh, I missed it…thanks!

you said:

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Jesus is NEVER given the credit of creation. The closest the scriptures ever come to saying anything close to that is MAYBE in Hebrews 1, where Paul could be crediting Jesus with laying the foundations of the earth with his own hands. That one is “iffy” though, because he could just as easily be speaking of God Himself in the middle of the passage. And the fact that God Himself is said to be the One who did that leads me to think Paul was in fact speaking of God. The scriptures YOU allude to are the ones where it is stated that things came to be THROUGH Jesus, but trinitarian translations like to use the word “BY” instead. But by using the word “BY”, they go directly against the scriptures where God said He created everything ALONE. And they are cool with this because they think Jesus IS God anyway…….so what's the difference? Kathi, just understand 1 Cor 8:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Get it? All things came from (or were created BY) God. All things did NOT come FROM God AND Jesus.

If I built a house THROUGH a particular contractor then we both get credit for building the house. I may have drawn up the design of the floor plan, forked out the money, chosen all the finishes, hired the contractor BUT the contractor certainly GETS CREDIT for the actual building of the house. Why do you not want to give the Son ANY credit?

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Try a more accurate translation: Col 1:15-16 NWT 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

You mean biased translation. The NWT inserts 'other' twice which you won't find in the Greek. The words 'by' or 'through' still give the Son credit with the Father for
creation.

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Acts 4:24 NIV 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. They prayed this through the name of God's holy servant Jesus, so I don't think they were including this “servant” of the God who made everything as a “co-creator”. [/QUOTE Regarding Acts 4, no one is disputing that God was involved in creation WITH HIS HAND, BTW. This does not sound like a prayer but more like recitation of liturgy. There is no praying in Jesus name at the end of this. Acts 4:23 When they were released, Peter and John 53 went to their fellow believers 54 and reported everything the high priests and the elders had said to them. 4:24 When they heard this, they raised their voices to God with one mind 55 and said, “Master of all, 56 you who made the heaven, the earth, 57 the sea, and everything that is in them, 4:25 who said by the Holy Spirit through 58 your servant David our forefather, 59 ‘Why do the nations 60 rage, 61 and the peoples plot foolish 62 things? 4:26 The kings of the earth stood together, 63 and the rulers assembled together, against the Lord and against his 64 Christ.’ 65 ] Can you show me anywhere in scripture where a “firstborn” of any particular group is NOT a part OF that group? Hint: There are none.

I can show you where the word for 'creation' is not only applied to the created but also is used for the creation act.

2 Peter 3:4 and saying, “Where is his promised return? For ever since our ancestors died, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation.”

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.

The word 'creation' is not just about the created but about the creation act also which definitely includes the creator. You have made it about the firstborn of a group but it is about the firstborn of ALL creation, not all created, and just as I have asked you before, if the verse said 'the creator of all creation' you wouldn't have so much trouble seeing this. The creator is part of creation, right? The Firstborn was part of creation as the first to be born of God and being the ONE that God created all things through. He was not part of the creation by being the created.

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If Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, then Jesus MUST be part of the “group of created things”.

And that false assumption is what is messing you up. You have changed the words from 'of all creation' to 'of all created beings' and it doesn't say that.

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Scriptures tell us God can create beings from dust, from rocks, from dead bones……so why can't he create a being from His own “loins”.

You are using two completely different concepts and giving them the same word 'create.' In the beginning God created man from the dust, not from 'His loins.' And that was the beginning of the creatures. There are times in the OT that suggest that humans, when they reproduce use a different Hebrew word that has been translated as 'created or create' but that is a very different concept than the one in Col 1:15.

If He caused Him to exist from His own loins, that would not be creation it would be procreation when creation carries the sense of making something different. Procreation carries the sense of making an offspring, reproducing someone of the same type.

So Mike, do you believe that the son was begotten as in procreated or created?

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You get so hung up on the word “create”. For some reason you think that if Jesus is “begotten”, it is an honor. But if he was “created” by his wonderful loving God as the first of His works before all ages, this is somehow a dishonor to him. Yet Jesus proudly tells us he is “the beginning of the creation of God”. I just don't get it.

Mike, there is a significant difference between being created by God and being procreated by God. Which one do you think would hold a higher honor? Which one do you think would produce a true offspring with the same nature and form? Wouldn't you agree that having the exact same nature as God would be much greater, in fact most ultimate, than having a lesser nature than God?

Also, the verse in Revelation 3 is translated differently than your biased NWT, btw.

For instance:
Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation:
NET

With translator notes:
4 tn Or “the beginning of God’s creation”; or “the ruler of God’s creation.” From a linguistic standpoint all three meanings for ἀρχή (arch) are possible. The term is well attested in both LXX (Gen 40:13, 21; 41:13) and intertestamental Jewish literature (2 Macc 4:10, 50) as meaning “ruler, authority” (BDAG 138 s.v. 6). Some have connected this passage to Paul’s statements in Col 1:15, 18 which describe Christ as ἀρχή and πρωτότοκος (prwtotoko”; e.g., see R. H. Mounce, Revelation [NICNT], 124) but the term ἀρχή has been understood as either “beginning” or “ruler” in that passage as well. The most compelling connection is to be found in the prologue to John’s Gospel (1:2-4) where the λόγος (logos) is said to be “in the beginning (ἀρχή) with God,” a temporal reference connected with creation, and then v. 3 states that “all things were made through him.” The connection with the original creation suggests the meaning “originator” for ἀρχή here. BDAG 138 s.v. 3 gives the meaning “the first cause” for the word in Rev 3:14, a term that is too philosophical for the general reader, so the translation “originator” was used instead. BDAG also notes, “but the mng. beginning = ‘first created’ is linguistically probable (s. above 1b and Job 40:19; also CBurney, Christ as the ᾿Αρχή of Creation: JTS 27, 1926, 160-77).” Such a meaning is unlikely here, however, since the connections described above are much more probable.

You are looking through a tunnel Mike…I want to help you OUT!

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2010,00:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2010,22:49) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 29 2010,22:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,23:29) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 29 2010,00:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,23:02) Mike, Quote 1.  The “firstborn” of any group is ALWAYS a part of that group.  So Jesus MUST be a part OF creation in order to be the firstborn OF creation. He is part of the creation in that He performed the act of creation with His Father.  The creator is definitely part of the creation account.  He is the Firstborn of all creation as the co-creator, not as the created.  Firstborn does not mean first created Mike, it means firstborn. Kathy were that it say that Christ is the co-creator,God is the creator i have not seen it written other wise,did you ?? trough him and for him would that mean that he did it The creator and the creation are one,because no creator no creation so were there is creation there must be a creator. Christ say scriptures is a participant of creation not a producer of creation. Pierre Pierre, You are right, the creator and creation go hand in hand.  You can't have one without the other.  Our creator happens to be the Father and the Son, they both take part to produce creation: 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. NET Kathy 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. Kathy,Kathy my friend ,What Paul says here is one God from whom are all things then we have Christ through whom we live BECAUSE HE GIVES IS LIVE IN SACRIFICE SO THAT WE MAY OBTAIN THAT LIVE, it as nothing the do with creation ,there is only one creator God the father ,Christ is a instrument by which God create all things. Pierre Pierre, When I post a scripture and I think it means A and B, then you come along and say, no, no…it is just B, then I can come back and tell you, no, no…it is A and B and we get no where.  That is the reason that I am going to show you a quote from an early church father about the verse we have different views on as my witness: Quote er. 5. “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are gods many and lords many; yet to us there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we unto Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” Since he had said, that “an idol is nothing” and that “there is no other God;” and yet there were idols and there were those that were called gods; that he might not seem to be contradicting plain facts, he goes on to say, “For though there be that are called gods, as indeed there are;” not absolutely, “there are;” but, “called,” not in reality having this but in name: “be it in heaven or on earth:—in heaven,” meaning the sun and the moon and the remainder of the choir of stars; for these too the Greeks worshipped: but upon the earth demons, and all those who had been made gods of men:—“yet to us there is One God, the Father.” In the first instance having expressed it without the word “Father,” and said, “there is no God but one,” he now adds this also, when he had utterly cast out the others. Next, he adduces what indeed is the greatest token of divinity; “of Whom are all things.” For this implies also that those others are not gods. For it is said (Jer. x. 11.), “Let the gods who made not the heaven and the earth perish.” Then he subjoins what is not less than this, “and we unto Him.” For when he saith, “of Whom are all things,” he means the creation and the bringing of things out of nothing into existence. But when he saith, “and we unto Him,” he speaks of the word of faith and mutual 114 appropriation (οἰκειώσεως), as also he said before (1 Cor. i. 30.), “but of Him are ye also in Christ Jesus.” In two ways we are of Him, by being made when we were not, and by being made believers. For this also is a creation: a thing which he also declares elsewhere; (Ephes. ii. 15.) “that He might create in Himself of the twain one new man.” “And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” And in regard to Christ again, we must conceive of this in like manner. For through Him the race of men was both produced out of nothing into existence, and returned from error to truth. So that as to the phrase “of Whom,” it is not to be understood apart from Christ. For of Him, through Christ, were we created. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxi.html You are right that we exist through Christ because of His death on the cross bearing our sin, but it was through Him also, that the race of men was produced out of nothing into existence. So, I have produced one witness of an early church father who says that all things were created through Jesus and it is speaking of the original creation and the rebirth creation. Can you produce a witness that says what you think? Kathy this is your quote;You are right that we exist through Christ because of His death on the cross bearing our sin, but it was through Him also, that the race of men was produced out of nothing into existence. this is false;the scriptures says FROM DUST YOU CAME AND TO DUST YOU RETURN. THIS IS ALSO YOUR QUOTE;;So, I have produced one witness of an early church father who says that all things were created through Jesus and it is speaking of the original creation and the rebirth creation. ——————————- i do not understand this new word of yours;;rebirth creation ?? Pierre

Pierre,
And just what did God make th
e dust out of?

Also, you asked about what the rebirth creation…that is the idea of being 'born again' and becoming a new creature.

2Co 5:17
So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away – look, what is new has come!

[terraricca]

Kathy

you say;;Pierre,
And just what did God make the dust out of?

Also, you asked about what the rebirth creation…that is the idea of being 'born again' and becoming a new creature.

2Co 5:17
So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away – look, what is new has come!

Edited by Lightenup on Oct. 01 2010,21:45

——————————————————————————-

Kathy

Adam was made out of the dust and spirit of live from God trough Christ (the Word)and the dust was made with the planets and solar system in the beginning of creation all trough Christ ,SO NOT OUT OF NOTHING.

UNLESS YOU CALL GOD NOTHING ,BECAUSE ALL IN A WAY COMES OUT OF GOD.

AS FOR BORN AGAIN ;there are only two natures to men;one is flesh the other is spirit ;
first men is living in a bubble of vanity according to the flesh.sin=death;secondly;since Christ the nature of the spirit of truth came from heaven and offers to men the ability to develop is spiritual nature trough Christ and live without the condemnation of sin,this change is to modify our views and behavior in according with the law of the spirit and live according to the spirit, this automatically removes the sinful nature of men,and is now a NEW CREATION ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.

Pierre

[JustAskin]

Mike,
Was 'Lucifer' not also standing in the presence of God before he sinned?
Was he not also 'on God's Holy mount' before he fell?

Mike,
what you say is sometimes true…
Some of what you say is true…
Sometimes what you say is true…

However, sometimes, some of what you say, is confusing and misshapen.

In your post at the top if this page, it could easy be presumed that you are saying that Jesus 'IS' God. It is only later on that you clarify what you meant.

“Jesus is the 'very God' that his God is” (paraphrased).

Mike, how do you read that. Is Jesus 'God'? Yes, by your rendering… Hmmm…but yet that is not what you meant…

“Jesus is the 'servant' of his God”. Ah, now I see. The servant is so much like his master that he could be called the very 'Image' of his master, the very embodiment, the personification, the 'Actor' of the 'Word' of his master. Ah, yes, true, true…

But combine the two quotes and the response is …uh, duh…what!!

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
You are right that God made everything through His Son. When people say that God created things out of nothing, they generally mean there was no pre-existent material that He used to make material things. Yes, He made man from the dust and the dust came from the planet but the planet and material universe came out of nothing material.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 02 2010,14:42)

Pierre, You are right that God made everything through His Son.  When people say that God created things out of nothing, they generally mean there was no pre-existent material that He used to make material things. Yes, He made man from the dust and the dust came from the planet but the planet and material universe came out of nothing material.

Kathy

you miss what Paul is saying ,that all that can be seen as be created by what is invisible,or that what can not be seen.

Pierre

(and i do not like to assume what people mean specially wen it is easy to explain)

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