- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,01:42) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 19 2010,18:11) I Just think the point of the SPECFIC scripture you mentioned was in reference in man made images that Men worshipped.
I disagree. I think the whole point is that we have never seen God in ANY form whatsoever, so don't worship ANYTHING that we have seen take a form of any kind. That includes “men”. Many people saw Jesus in the form of a man. But since you think it only refers to men making images out of inanimate objects, I guess it's a good thing that no one has ever carved, sculpted, painted, engraved or otherwise fashioned an image of the man Jesus into an inanimate object that was used to help incorporate the worship of him.
SF:
Quote Where does it say in the NT that Jesus said we must worship God only? i just want to see what scripture your referring to. Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'peace and love,
mike
Well Mike you can believe that all you want but thats not what scripture is saying.
I didnt say that it ONLY refers to Men making inanimate objects, but it turns out that every religion that believe in many gods and even at the time did SUCH things, which wuold MAKE sense why they would do that.Even in the battle that Jousha had where he lost, he had to find the stupid idol and destroy it because someone took some with them. People were THAT stupid, and STILL are.
we LOVE to worship what we can see.They have DONE such things abuot Jesus and still do that even in the Catholic Church, and EVEN with the Cross.
people WORSHIP the Cross.I TOTALLY agree about such things,
Again JESUS never asked for that, he said blessed are those who havent SEEN and yet believe.that was my point Mike.
about Matthew,
Jesus referred to scripture, how do you know that he didnt include himself?
did he say you must worship my God and you can only serve him?
Yet FYI even the Devil will bow his knees to Jesus.Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Who is he?
HE is DEFINED in the prior verse-
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The person of whom we have redemption through is the MAN Jesus Christ, and it is therefore IN THIS MAN that ALL the HE’s in Colossians 1 should be referenced to, NOT to a pre-existing spirit son, but the MAN Jesus who-
40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
andHebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
HE, that is the IMAGE of the invisible God is the MAN who died on the cross, the MAN who grew in wisdom and grace and who WAS PERFECTED through that which he suffered. This MAN is the head of the body, and by and for this man did the Father create heaven and earth.
The PERSON clearly marked as being the image of God is the MAN who shed his blood on the cross. The man that sits at God’s right hand can clearly be identified from the following verses-
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
ACCORDING TO THE FLESH Jesus Christ SITS on God’s throne!!!
The person that sits with God at His right hand is a man of flesh and bones who has the genes of David. God made heaven and earth for the man who He knew He would perfect one day and be the first of many brethren.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The promise of eternal life was the WORD of God that was in the beginning, that promise was held in the man who would be born of the seed of David of whom God would give his Spirit to without measure. This man God promised to be a Father to.
Jesus being a MAN, makes him certainly a creation of the Father.
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Our Messiah was certainly created through YHWH, our Heavenly Father.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 21 2010,02:01) Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Who is he?
HE is DEFINED in the prior verse-
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The person of whom we have redemption through is the MAN Jesus Christ, and it is therefore IN THIS MAN that ALL the HE’s in Colossians 1 should be referenced to, NOT to a pre-existing spirit son, but the MAN Jesus who-
40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
andHebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
HE, that is the IMAGE of the invisible God is the MAN who died on the cross, the MAN who grew in wisdom and grace and who WAS PERFECTED through that which he suffered. This MAN is the head of the body, and by and for this man did the Father create heaven and earth.
The PERSON clearly marked as being the image of God is the MAN who shed his blood on the cross. The man that sits at God’s right hand can clearly be identified from the following verses-
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
ACCORDING TO THE FLESH Jesus Christ SITS on God’s throne!!!
The person that sits with God at His right hand is a man of flesh and bones who has the genes of David. God made heaven and earth for the man who He knew He would perfect one day and be the first of many brethren.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The promise of eternal life was the WORD of God that was in the beginning, that promise was held in the man who would be born of the seed of David of whom God would give his Spirit to without measure. This man God promised to be a Father to.
Jesus being a MAN, makes him certainly a creation of the Father.
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Our Messiah was certainly created through YHWH, our Heavenly Father.
Oh my Jodi,
You make no sense at all… most of your post are a waste of time, you know that?Quote Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
He took part in Creation, therefore automaticly he is more than a mere mortal.Quote Who is he? HE is DEFINED in the prior verse-
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.[/b
Just a MANS blood or the SON OF GODS BLOOD.Quote The person of whom we have redemption through is the MAN Jesus Christ, and it is therefore IN THIS MAN that ALL the HE’s in Colossians 1 should be referenced to, NOT to a pre-existing spirit son, but the MAN Jesus who-
Thats not the case nor is it the case in what he Did, and how Paul described him as a person who created and has authority over all these things.Quote The person of whom we have redemption through is the MAN Jesus Christ, and it is therefore IN THIS MAN that ALL the HE’s in Colossians 1 should be referenced to, NOT to a pre-existing spirit son, but the MAN Jesus who-
Paul and John believe he Existed SINCE the beginning.
There is nothing left to say, if you want to pick and twist scripture into your own beliefs thats fine. but thats not the case here.Quote The person that sits with God at His right hand is a man of flesh and bones who has the genes of David.
Through mary alone, and who is his Father?
Where did he come from?
DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHQuote The promise of eternal life was the WORD of God that was in the beginning, that promise was held in the man who would be born of the seed of David of whom God would give his Spirit to without measure. This man God promised to be a Father to. Jesus being a MAN, makes him certainly a creation of the Father.
False, nothing in scripture suggested he was created.
Your making stuff up now.Quote Our Messiah was certainly created through YHWH, our Heavenly Father.
YHWH was NEVER your Father until Jesus came.NOTHING you said, had anything to do with the current discussion nor does it answer the case that i made in the beginning.
Your trying to prove that Jesus was just a Man, and somehow that will prove that he didnt create.
This is not the case, the Case is scritpures written from Paul and John alike hold that he was not created,
people claim that he is, and the scriptures they use are a few.This is the purpose of this thread to ask those who believe if he was created in the beginning to prove it.
If you dont believe so than this thread really doesnt concern you.
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
SimplyForgiven the above scripture clearly states that the person who sits with God on His throne is FLESH. FLESH is a creation of YHWH.
Collossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
The HE that is the image of the invisible God is clearly identified as the MAN who shed his blood on the cross.
I gave scripture that shows that Paul teaches us clearly that YHWH had a plan before time began. This plan included the seed of David, the perfecting of that seed and having that seed be the first of many brethren.
Even in the very last chapter of our bibles Jesus reminds us that he is the offspring of David.
The deep understanding that I have of who Jesus is I got from Paul's words, go figure!
So let me get this strait, you start off the thread by discussing the claims of those who believe he was created, and I am suppose to know that this thread is only for giving support that he wasn't?
Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
HMM the genealogy of Jesus Christ………I would have to say Jesus our Messiah is most definitely created!!
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; 3 who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, 4 having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?' 6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;'
The PERSON who is the brightness of God's glory, who is the impress of His subsistence is THE MAN WHO DIED ON THE CROSS., the MAN who knew no sin, but became sin for us.
The HUMAN BEING, Jesus of Nazareth, who was perfected and learned obedience by that which he suffered, is the impress of YHWH's subsistence.
Jodi,
I dont waste my time talking to you,
and the reason is, since you read scritpure so much,
how is it possible that your so limitedJesus was SANCTIFEID AND SENT,
I.E. Holy spirit brought him into a virgen woman,
the Woman gave birth to him,We ALL KNOW THIS, and we ALL KNOW OF THE VIRGIN Birth,
but you limited yourself to only this understanding, and its a waste of time to even try to dicuss with you.
We know that Jesus wasnt just any man, but the Son of God, the Son of Man.
We know that he is a Man in the Flesh, but there is something MORE about him.He was not created,
Again, you dont believe that he pre-existed from his birth,
than there is no point to talk about anything because the context of this thread refers to those who do.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 21 2010,14:59) Jodi,
I dont waste my time talking to you,
and the reason is, since you read scritpure so much,
how is it possible that your so limitedJesus was SANCTIFEID AND SENT,
I.E. Holy spirit brought him into a virgen woman,
the Woman gave birth to him,We ALL KNOW THIS, and we ALL KNOW OF THE VIRGIN Birth,
but you limited yourself to only this understanding, and its a waste of time to even try to dicuss with you.
We know that Jesus wasnt just any man, but the Son of God, the Son of Man.
We know that he is a Man in the Flesh, but there is something MORE about him.He was not created,
Again, you dont believe that he pre-existed from his birth,
than there is no point to talk about anything because the context of this thread refers to those who do.
Yes, of course there is something more to Jesus, he was the man given the Holy Spirit at the river Jordon. After receiving the Holy Spirit he was SENT by God out into the world to teach. He was a man of flesh, but a man who walked according to the Spirit of YHWH. He was able to accomplish what no other man could do, deny his flesh, and he was ONLY able to do this because God ANOINTED him with His Spirit, thus why he is called our Messiah or Christ.The Holy Spirit caused the virgin Mary to be pregnant with a HUMAN BEING, not some new sort of creature, but a MAN of David's seed. Jesus is the son of God because-
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
I would be more then happy to debate all this with you on the pre-existence thread. I will leave this one alone.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 21 2010,16:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 21 2010,14:59) Jodi,
I dont waste my time talking to you,
and the reason is, since you read scritpure so much,
how is it possible that your so limitedJesus was SANCTIFEID AND SENT,
I.E. Holy spirit brought him into a virgen woman,
the Woman gave birth to him,We ALL KNOW THIS, and we ALL KNOW OF THE VIRGIN Birth,
but you limited yourself to only this understanding, and its a waste of time to even try to dicuss with you.
We know that Jesus wasnt just any man, but the Son of God, the Son of Man.
We know that he is a Man in the Flesh, but there is something MORE about him.He was not created,
Again, you dont believe that he pre-existed from his birth,
than there is no point to talk about anything because the context of this thread refers to those who do.
Yes, of course there is something more to Jesus, he was the man given the Holy Spirit at the river Jordon. After receiving the Holy Spirit he was SENT by God out into the world to teach. He was a man of flesh, but a man who walked according to the Spirit of YHWH. He was able to accomplish what no other man could do, deny his flesh, and he was ONLY able to do this because God ANOINTED him with His Spirit, thus why he is called our Messiah or Christ.The Holy Spirit caused the virgin Mary to be pregnant with a HUMAN BEING, not some new sort of creature, but a MAN of David's seed. Jesus is the son of God because-
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
I would be more then happy to debate all this with you on the pre-existence thread. I will leave this one alone.
Jodu! You are ignoring allot of good Scriptures, when you believe that Jesus was only a man and did not preexist. You even quoting Col.1:15 but you don't believe it. Also look at Rev. 3:14 and there are other Scriptures like
John 6:38-40, 1:15,8:58, 17:5
John 1:1 and also Rev. 19:13-16 I like Rev. 19:13-16Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Do ypu know another being that fits that discription? I don't.
I know how hard it isto learn from another person, but I had to too, I did not always understood this. But there are to many Scriptures for me to ignore it…. I hope you won;t either….Peace Irene
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 20 2010,13:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,01:23) Dennison,
Thanks for your picture. So are you saying by this picture that the Father is a 'part of' God, the Son is a 'part of' God, and the Holy Spirit is a 'part of' God?
Lu,
No, lets define the Terms correctly.
I dont believe that God was ALWAYS Father sense that depends if he has a creation to be a Father too.
Jesus was not ALWAYS “son” for he was the “Word” before that.
And the Holy Spirit, which isnt really part of this dicussion i guess, is simply what it is God spirit.The Picture to represents this.
In scripture we know that in Isaiah and in Revelations God says that he will be a God to his people.The Term Father was never mentioned UNTIL Jesus came, and in Revelations is not even used to identify God.
Lets take another shot at this, lets go back to the picture.
A) Jesus is what you see here in this picture, look at the picture and everything that you are able to see.
B) The Totality of God is everythign that you cant see and what is currently happening within the Tree. How far the Roots go, even to what are happen in an molecular level.Point being that Jesus came to reveal This Totality as the Father, because we are adopted THROUGH Jesus.
so that we may cry out “Abba” Father.Again, Jesus is what you see,
ITs impossible to SEE the Totality of God.Jesus is like that Rock that Moses hid behind to “SEE” God.
because to SEE God is to die, its TOO much.Does that make any sense?
Dennison,
Can you just come over and I'll make you a healthy lunch so we can discuss this? I see what you are saying but I have some questions for you…Was the 'word' a person before the creation of living things?
When was the 'word' begotten?
What was the 'word' before being begotten?
Does the Son stop being a son in the future?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 21 2010,16:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 21 2010,14:59) Jodi,
I dont waste my time talking to you,
and the reason is, since you read scritpure so much,
how is it possible that your so limitedJesus was SANCTIFEID AND SENT,
I.E. Holy spirit brought him into a virgen woman,
the Woman gave birth to him,We ALL KNOW THIS, and we ALL KNOW OF THE VIRGIN Birth,
but you limited yourself to only this understanding, and its a waste of time to even try to dicuss with you.
We know that Jesus wasnt just any man, but the Son of God, the Son of Man.
We know that he is a Man in the Flesh, but there is something MORE about him.He was not created,
Again, you dont believe that he pre-existed from his birth,
than there is no point to talk about anything because the context of this thread refers to those who do.
Yes, of course there is something more to Jesus, he was the man given the Holy Spirit at the river Jordon. After receiving the Holy Spirit he was SENT by God out into the world to teach. He was a man of flesh, but a man who walked according to the Spirit of YHWH. He was able to accomplish what no other man could do, deny his flesh, and he was ONLY able to do this because God ANOINTED him with His Spirit, thus why he is called our Messiah or Christ.The Holy Spirit caused the virgin Mary to be pregnant with a HUMAN BEING, not some new sort of creature, but a MAN of David's seed. Jesus is the son of God because-
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
I would be more then happy to debate all this with you on the pre-existence thread. I will leave this one alone.
HI Jodi,Luke 2:49-50 references Jesus when he was 12 years old…
Luke 2:49-50 And he (Jesus) said unto them (Mary and Joseph), How is it that
ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.This are serious questions; Please answer them BOTH?
What does MY FATHER's BUSINESS mean?
and WHO was leading Jesus about?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHI Ed J, I want to be respectful and not hijack this thread, so let's continue this on the pre-existence thread!! See you there!
SF:
Quote Well Mike you can believe that all you want but thats not what scripture is saying.
So once again, your assertion is that God was saying not to worship inanimate objects ONLY, right? You do NOT think God was saying to not worship anything with a form? You think that the worship of living things was permitted by God, as long as they didn't fashion an idol of that thing?SF:
Quote Jesus referred to scripture, how do you know that he didnt include himself?
Because Jesus is not God, Dennison. He is the Son of God. He did not say to worship him and God only, did he? Jesus prayed to his God. He said that our God was also his God. He called Jehovah “my God” 5 times in Rev.SF:
Quote did he say you must worship my God and you can only serve him?
As opposed to what other God? He said that his Father was “the ONLY true God”. What other “God” do you suppose Jesus was thinking it was alright to worship?
SF:
Quote Yet FYI even the Devil will bow his knees to Jesus.
I'm not sure about that one. I think the Devil will refuse and fight and be defeated and cast into the lake of fire. But at any rate, doing obeisance to Jesus, like people did to King David, is not the same as “paying homage to God”.Either you should join in the “worship Jesus” discussion I'm having with Kathi in the “Does God Procreate?” thread, or she should join us here. I'm answering the same things in two threads.
Or better yet, maybe we should all just move the discussion to Nick's “Who Should We Worship?” thread. Yeah, I like that idea. Look for me there.
mike
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,12:45) HI Ed J, I want to be respectful and not hijack this thread, so let's continue this on the pre-existence thread!! See you there!
Hi Jodi,Or maybe you could come to the Phil 2 thread and answer the simple question none that of the other “non-preexisters” have been able to answer.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2010,13:10) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,12:45) HI Ed J, I want to be respectful and not hijack this thread, so let's continue this on the pre-existence thread!! See you there!
Hi Jodi,Or maybe you could come to the Phil 2 thread and answer the simple question none that of the other “non-preexisters” have been able to answer.
mike
Hi Mike,Good point!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,01:11) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 20 2010,13:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,01:23) Dennison,
Thanks for your picture. So are you saying by this picture that the Father is a 'part of' God, the Son is a 'part of' God, and the Holy Spirit is a 'part of' God?
Lu,
No, lets define the Terms correctly.
I dont believe that God was ALWAYS Father sense that depends if he has a creation to be a Father too.
Jesus was not ALWAYS “son” for he was the “Word” before that.
And the Holy Spirit, which isnt really part of this dicussion i guess, is simply what it is God spirit.The Picture to represents this.
In scripture we know that in Isaiah and in Revelations God says that he will be a God to his people.The Term Father was never mentioned UNTIL Jesus came, and in Revelations is not even used to identify God.
Lets take another shot at this, lets go back to the picture.
A) Jesus is what you see here in this picture, look at the picture and everything that you are able to see.
B) The Totality of God is everythign that you cant see and what is currently happening within the Tree. How far the Roots go, even to what are happen in an molecular level.Point being that Jesus came to reveal This Totality as the Father, because we are adopted THROUGH Jesus.
so that we may cry out “Abba” Father.Again, Jesus is what you see,
ITs impossible to SEE the Totality of God.Jesus is like that Rock that Moses hid behind to “SEE” God.
because to SEE God is to die, its TOO much.Does that make any sense?
Dennison,
Can you just come over and I'll make you a healthy lunch so we can discuss this? I see what you are saying but I have some questions for you…Was the 'word' a person before the creation of living things?
When was the 'word' begotten?
What was the 'word' before being begotten?
Does the Son stop being a son in the future?
Lu,
you live in Texas?
lol well you can give me a call anytime. perferrably at night.
or when im online.was the word a person?
from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember.
I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe.Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.and things that were unseen.
So it depends what do you mean by person?When was the “word” begotten? the word is life, life started in the beginning.
what was the word before being begotten?
What IS the word if its somethign that we can see?
simply taken it was always with God.does the son stop being son in the future?
He already redeemed, he comes as a king of kings.to be honest it doenst say, but he is not mentioned as the son in the future but as a lamb, as a husband, and as Lord.
Its like saying when was he Emmanuel?
Truth is I Dont know, i did my best to answer
Can you tell me?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 22 2010,17:35) Lu, was the word a person?
from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember.
I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe.Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hi SF,We all know at Jesus' birth, he did in FACT appear!
I see improvement here in your Post! (Click Here)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,13:02) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 22 2010,17:35) Lu, was the word a person?
from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember.
I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe.Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hi SF,We all know at Jesus' birth, he did in FACT appear!
I see improvement here in your Post! (Click Here)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
The Word was made flesh Ed J,
eventually yes he did appear,it doesnt say if he was FLESH before.
it doenst say he ever appeared prior to his birth,Point is he created, there is nothing left to say.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 22 2010,01:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,01:11) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 20 2010,13:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,01:23) Dennison,
Thanks for your picture. So are you saying by this picture that the Father is a 'part of' God, the Son is a 'part of' God, and the Holy Spirit is a 'part of' God?
Lu,
No, lets define the Terms correctly.
I dont believe that God was ALWAYS Father sense that depends if he has a creation to be a Father too.
Jesus was not ALWAYS “son” for he was the “Word” before that.
And the Holy Spirit, which isnt really part of this dicussion i guess, is simply what it is God spirit.The Picture to represents this.
In scripture we know that in Isaiah and in Revelations God says that he will be a God to his people.The Term Father was never mentioned UNTIL Jesus came, and in Revelations is not even used to identify God.
Lets take another shot at this, lets go back to the picture.
A) Jesus is what you see here in this picture, look at the picture and everything that you are able to see.
B) The Totality of God is everythign that you cant see and what is currently happening within the Tree. How far the Roots go, even to what are happen in an molecular level.Point being that Jesus came to reveal This Totality as the Father, because we are adopted THROUGH Jesus.
so that we may cry out “Abba” Father.Again, Jesus is what you see,
ITs impossible to SEE the Totality of God.Jesus is like that Rock that Moses hid behind to “SEE” God.
because to SEE God is to die, its TOO much.Does that make any sense?
Dennison,
Can you just come over and I'll make you a healthy lunch so we can discuss this? I see what you are saying but I have some questions for you…Was the 'word' a person before the creation of living things?
When was the 'word' begotten?
What was the 'word' before being begotten?
Does the Son stop being a son in the future?
Lu,
you live in Texas?
lol well you can give me a call anytime. perferrably at night.
or when im online.was the word a person?
from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember.
I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe.Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.and things that were unseen.
So it depends what do you mean by person?When was the “word” begotten? the word is life, life started in the beginning.
what was the word before being begotten?
What IS the word if its somethign that we can see?
simply taken it was always with God.does the son stop being son in the future?
He already redeemed, he comes as a king of kings.to be honest it doenst say, but he is not mentioned as the son in the future but as a lamb, as a husband, and as Lord.
Its like saying when was he Emmanuel?
Truth is I Dont know, i did my best to answer
Can you tell me?
Hi Dennison,
I live in the eastern time zone. I shy away from talking about this on the phone. I wonder how effective it would be to skype out differences and find the similarities. I would rather you just came for lunch, LOL. Things handled in person are the best, I think. I know…just wishful thinking.So you said that the 'word' is an action verb? Isn't logos a noun?
I believe that the 'word' is the offspring of God and is the image of God and the form of God and the exact representation of God. He was within God and then was begotten to be with God before the ages. That sounds like a son to me. Not a physical person, but a person in a way that God is a person and takes on the appearance of what He needs to, to carry out the purpose of His Father. To define that further is beyond me.
When was the 'word' begotten? You say that the word is life and that life started in the beginning. The beginning of what?
I would say that the 'word' existed 'with' the Father at least by the time just before the creation of things in heaven and on earth.What was the word before being begotten?
Your answer does not answer the question.
I would say that the word was the pre-begotten Son, carrier of all the Father can give Him and completely within the person of God, not with Him yet but simply in Him from all time.Does the Son stop being the Son in the future?
You say that He already redeemed and comes as a king of kings. Isn't He still the Son of God even as the king of kings and the Mediator and the High Priest?He became Emmanuel when He came by birth from Mary.
This is my limited understanding at this point. Thanks for your answers.
Take care!
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:20) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 22 2010,01:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,01:11) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 20 2010,13:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,01:23) Dennison,
Thanks for your picture. So are you saying by this picture that the Father is a 'part of' God, the Son is a 'part of' God, and the Holy Spirit is a 'part of' God?
Lu,
No, lets define the Terms correctly.
I dont believe that God was ALWAYS Father sense that depends if he has a creation to be a Father too.
Jesus was not ALWAYS “son” for he was the “Word” before that.
And the Holy Spirit, which isnt really part of this dicussion i guess, is simply what it is God spirit.The Picture to represents this.
In scripture we know that in Isaiah and in Revelations God says that he will be a God to his people.The Term Father was never mentioned UNTIL Jesus came, and in Revelations is not even used to identify God.
Lets take another shot at this, lets go back to the picture.
A) Jesus is what you see here in this picture, look at the picture and everything that you are able to see.
B) The Totality of God is everythign that you cant see and what is currently happening within the Tree. How far the Roots go, even to what are happen in an molecular level.Point being that Jesus came to reveal This Totality as the Father, because we are adopted THROUGH Jesus.
so that we may cry out “Abba” Father.Again, Jesus is what you see,
ITs impossible to SEE the Totality of God.Jesus is like that Rock that Moses hid behind to “SEE” God.
because to SEE God is to die, its TOO much.Does that make any sense?
Dennison,
Can you just come over and I'll make you a healthy lunch so we can discuss this? I see what you are saying but I have some questions for you…Was the 'word' a person before the creation of living things?
When was the 'word' begotten?
What was the 'word' before being begotten?
Does the Son stop being a son in the future?
Lu,
you live in Texas?
lol well you can give me a call anytime. perferrably at night.
or when im online.was the word a person?
from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember.
I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe.Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.and things that were unseen.
So it depends what do you mean by person?When was the “word” begotten? the word is life, life started in the beginning.
what was the word before being begotten?
What IS the word if its somethign that we can see?
simply taken it was always with God.does the son stop being son in the future?
He already redeemed, he comes as a king of kings.to be honest it doenst say, but he is not mentioned as the son in the future but as a lamb, as a husband, and as Lord.
Its like saying when was he Emmanuel?
Truth is I Dont know, i did my best to answer
Can you tell me?
Hi Dennison,
I live in the eastern time zone. I shy away from talking about this on the phone. I wonder how effective it would be to skype out differences and find the similarities. I would rather you just came for lunch, LOL. Things handled in person are the best, I think. I know…just wishful thinking.So you said that the 'word' is an action verb? Isn't logos a noun?
I believe that the 'word' is the offspring of God and is the image of God and the form of God and the exact representation of God. He was within God and then was begotten to be with God before the ages. That sounds like a son to me. Not a physical person, but a person in a way that God is a person and takes on the appearance of what He needs to, to carry out the purpose of His Father. To define that further is beyond me.
When was the 'word' begotten? You say that the word is life and that life started in the beginning. The beginning of what?
I would say that the 'word' existed 'with' the Father at least by the time just before the creation of things in heaven and on earth.What was the word before being begotten?
Your answer does not answer the question.
I would say that the word was the pre-begotten Son, carrier of all the Father can give Him and completely within the person of God, not with Him yet but simply in Him from all time.Does the Son stop being the Son in the future?
You say that He already redeemed and comes as a king of kings. Isn't He still the Son of God even as the king of kings and the Mediator and the High Priest?He became Emmanuel when He came by birth from Mary.
This is my limited understanding at this point. Thanks for your answers.
Take care!
[QUOTThis is my limited understanding at this point. Thanks for your answers.
E]Kathy,you forgot one scripture;
Isa 42:9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”Isa 43:18 “Forget the former things;
do not dwell on the pastIsa 65:17 “Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.Pierre
bump
SF:
Quote like i said, from ancient times? which verse are you refering to again? remember i told you that its refers to the hebrew “olam”?
The verse is Micah 5:2….just like it says where I posted it on page one of this thread sonny. And one of the words IS “owlam”. Here's what NETBible says:Micah 5:2 NET
As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah – from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.There is a footnote after “distant past”, which says:
“distant past”…….Heb “from the past, from the days of antiquity.” Elsewhere both phrases refer to the early periods in the history of the world or of the nation of Israel. For מִקֶּדֶם (miqqedem, “from the past”) see Neh 12:46; Pss 74:12; 77:11; Isa 45:21; 46:10. For מִימֵי עוֹלָם (mimey ’olam, “from the days of antiquity”) see Isa 63:9, 11; Amos 9:11; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4.
I don't see what point you are arguing. Matthew says this prophecy IS about Jesus, and this prophecy says Jesus had a beginning. It says his “origins” (which the LXX authors translate as “arche”, which means “beginning”) are “from the past, from days of antiquity”. This verse says that Jesus DID have a beginning, and it took place in “ancient times”.
Do you understand this passage, or do we need to discuss it some more?
peace and love,
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
