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Hi Gene, hope you are well.
I don't think about this anymore. By their fruits you will know them.. What is important…. are we showing a good example to others or a bad one, are we pleasing God, are we listening, do we call on him when needing help, can we humble ourselves even if it means we are the ones who are made to look wrong in the site of man, can we overcome as the Lord did to the end regardless of hard it gets, do we feel sorrow when we see pain and suffering and would we lay down our life for another…”The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked”… Psalms 11:5
Well mike you gave me Three post to work on Tonight.
Im going to try to answer all of them in one post.Quote A. We have never seen God take on ANY form whatsoever, so to worship ANYTHING that has a form of ANY kind is forbidden. B. That includes images of men. How many people have “Jesus shrines” with paintings and statues and the like depicting Jesus being crucified that they bow down to and worship? Jesus has a form that we have seen……..we are not to worship ANYTHING or ANYONE that has a form we have seen.
C. Jesus was “apportioned” by his God and our God to all the nations. We are not to worship anything our God has apportioned to all the nations.
A. Again What translation are you using, and if you would like lets go back to the hebrew of this passage.
im going to post KJV
Det4:15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
And even the context on 28-29 speak of gods who cant speak and that are man-made.
I would strictly say that in this passage that we should not worship any Graven Images, Images created by Man to worship a God.B. I agree, Jesus said himself that the one who havent seen him are the one who are blessed. Who has ever seen Jesus other the people from the biblical era? Where does Jesus ever say that we CANT, worship him.
C. You go so far to seperate them, Yet the Father and the Son are always in union togethor. One is never mentioned without the other. In what since was Jesus Apportioned?
was it just apportioned or for ALL eternity?Quote And the man in 2 Sam 1:2 bowed down before King David. Was he worshipping David as if David was God? No, and neither will the bowing down to show reverrence to our Lord Jesus be the same as the worship we are to give ONLY to our God.
What does David got to do with it?
We are to Love Jesus and we give him the same worship becuase he deserves all honor and glory that EVEN the father was the witness and the one who glorfied him.Other than that Jesus conquers all in the end so that we may worship him for WHO he is. And all will confess it, wither conquered or allied. Everyone will bow their knees.
David and Jesus are not even in the same level.Quote And your translation of the Greek words was mistaken. The word you list as “of” before “beginning” is the word “ho”. It means “the” or “this” or “that”, etc.
Actually i looked more into it and you are write the orginal does propose that its “the”.
and the sentence does end on “True”.
I probably got ahead of myself, intead of looking more into it.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I did give a wrong interpretation that Jesus was a witness to Creation according to that verse.
But instead ill take a different crack at it and say that according to context an in comparison in each letter, Jesus proclaimed himself as something different each time, As the Word, or the Amen, or faithful and True, depending to whom he was speaking too.
So i think this has regards to a title. Than again im not an expert. ill put out some commentary and you tell me what you think about what these people say. (same website)Quote (a) that this is not a necessary signification of the phrase, since no one can show that this is the only proper meaning which could be given to the words, and therefore the phrase cannot be adduced to prove that he is himself a created being. If it were demonstrated from other sources that Christ was, in fact, a created being, and the first that God had made, it cannot be denied that this language would appropriately express that fact. But it cannot be made out from the mere use of the language here; and as the language is susceptible of other interpretations, it cannot be employed to prove that Christ is a created being. (b) Such an interpretation would be at variance with all those passages which speak of him as uncreated and eternal; which ascribe divine attributes to him; which speak of him as himself the Creator of all things. Compare John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:6,Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:10-12. The third signification, therefore, remains, that he is “the beginning of the creation of God,” in the sense that he is the head or prince of the creation; that is, that he presides over it so far as the purposes of redemption are to be accomplished, and so far as is necessary for those purposes. This is:
Post 2
Quote “distant past”…….Heb “from the past, from the days of antiquity.” Elsewhere both phrases refer to the early periods in the history of the world or of the nation of Israel. For מִקֶּדֶם (miqqedem, “from the past”) see Neh 12:46; Pss 74:12; 77:11; Isa 45:21; 46:10. For מִימֵי עוֹלָם (mimey ’olam, “from the days of antiquity”) see Isa 63:9, 11; Amos 9:11; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4. I don't see what point you are arguing. Matthew says this prophecy IS about Jesus, and this prophecy says Jesus had a beginning. It says his “origins” (which the LXX authors translate as “arche”, which means “beginning”) are “from the past, from days of antiquity”. This verse says that Jesus DID have a beginning, and it took place in “ancient times”.
Do you understand this passage, or do we need to discuss it some more?
This is what i get in Hebrewוּמֹוצָאֹתָ֥יו u·mo·v·tza·'o·tav 4163 his goings
מִקֶּ֖דֶם mik·ke·dem 6924 long
מִימֵ֥י mi·mei 3117 the days
עֹולָֽם׃ o·v·lam. 5769 of eternity
What does yours say?Post 3
Quote If you want a serious discussion, then let's do it. But if you are not even going
to try to refute my rebuttals, then what's the point? Please don't waste my time by claiming some things, and then ignoring my scriptural rebuttals of those claims.
You can Refute a cliam, and i can refute back. But your asking questions based on logic and intent that have nothing to do with the subject. In other words your asking me, that in the case of if i were to be Right, than WHY? and my simple answer would be, Ask God.Quote You didn't address all the work I did to show you that “firstborn” means “the one who was born first” UNLESS something else is said or implied. You didn't tell me who the REAL firstborn of all creation was that Jesus “inherited” that title from. You've ignored the fact that “preeminence” isn't something that can be shared equally by both Father and Son, so if one is preeminent, the other is not. You ignored the fact that the Greek words don't even say “preeminent”, so it is a moot point anyway. But then you say today:
1. I didnt address it because YOU HAVENT proven that.
I made a whole case against it, your changing the meaning of what Paul meant to say.
2. Preeminent issue whether it can be shared or not cannot be ARGUED at all. Its a none debatable fact, that The reason that Paul mention him to be firstborn, so that he may be FIRST in all things. Whether God is first or not, doesnt change the fact that PAUL said so.3. Col 1:15 Depend on context which is proven by 18.
Revelations 3:14- has no context to prove it. its a single phrase
Micha 5- also context: Says he is from eternity or a period of time, or from the beginning doesnt suggest he was created, nor does it say that God created the redeemer. He is from “everlasting”
Proverbs 8- is defined by its context as well. Does not suggest that this entity was created, only that he was a witness of creation which we know Jesus actualy did Create.
let me repeat what i said the last time.
“Both Verses does not present that this entitiy was created. It presents that he was “THERE” not that he was creaeted himself. notice how it talks about how everything was created and its process.
Just the same when Jesus became flesh, it talked about his “birth”but no where in the bible does it talk abuot how Jesus was created or how he was created”
Just because the word “yalada” is present which is comparable to “begotten” doesnt mean he was “created”
You can BELIEVE that, but its not fact.
This is all eluding that Jesus was created.
We know for a fact that God does not make things so vague.Truth is To prove that Jesus was created is a “VAGUE” belief.
you have to twist and pull scripture and than chang the meaning of the countless scriptures that state otherwise.Quote But Paul DIDN'T say “preeminent” at all. That is your main point in all of this apparently – that Jesus is “preeminent” – yet the Bible NEVER says that.
I DO want to continue this discussion and get through both yours and my points, but not by spending 3 hours doing a 1000 word post just to have most of it ignored by you.
I made two posts prior to this one today…..one about Rev 3:14 and one about Micah 5:2. I'll wait for your responses to them before moving on.
Oh my Mike, do i have to say it again?
When i say Preeminent, i also mean the First.
Like the FIRST in all things,
the HEAD of all things,
the boss, the king! your stuck on the word. You should know what i mean by now.I am being serious. This is a serious topic.
JF
Oh my Mike, do i have to say it again?
When i say Preeminent, i also mean the First.
Like the FIRST in all things,
the HEAD of all things,
the boss, the king! your stuck on the word. You should know what i mean by now.——————————————-
use of proper wording is important so others can fallow ,we do not want to miss understand what you say,
even if you only talk to Mike ,you guys are not alone on this forum.
Pierre
SF,
Technically SF is right…..Jesus was not “created” he was “pro-created”.
That is why the terms “firstborn”, only “begotten” are used.
The word “son” should've been a tip-off that Jesus is not God…who is the Father.
We know that Adam was “created” because YHWH Elohim formed him out of dust. We know that angels are called sons of God and that we are adopted sons of God. Jesus calls us brothers and not his sons.
Therefore, Jesus being the only begotten son is unique. And the word “son” says it all….he is not God whom he comes from and has a beginning point in time whereas God has no beginning.
People who care to deceive you and wish to portray him as God want you to break the first commandment and have another god in front of God. If you believe in Jesus as God, you don't have the same God and son of God as depicted in the Bible and are in the same vein as the Koran's god…who has no son at all. Anytime Jesus is placed as “God” it is a “false god” and not the same as Jesus claimed to be. Believe Jesus and the Bible. Deceivers, like Satan, used God's personal words and quoted the Bible, too.
Jesus' own words tells us who HE thinks he is….
Luk 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
If Jesus was God, why didn't the Jews know about him? The Jews are looking for a Savior FROM God.
If Jesus wasn't “pro-created” then how did he come about into existence?
Col 1 talks about Jesus being before creation to whom he is firstborn over, as well as being preeminent in all things.
People who want to make Jesus, God, want to throw out this verse and anything else that shows Jesus as a “son”.
The truth here is simple: either Jesus is created/pro-created or Jesus is God….and you have to choose which one you believe in. Jesus, son OF God. Or Jesus, God the Son.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 17 2010,17:28) JF Oh my Mike, do i have to say it again?
When i say Preeminent, i also mean the First.
Like the FIRST in all things,
the HEAD of all things,
the boss, the king! your stuck on the word. You should know what i mean by now.——————————————-
use of proper wording is important so others can fallow ,we do not want to miss understand what you say,
even if you only talk to Mike ,you guys are not alone on this forum.
Pierre
True,
But we already discussed the definintion of what Preeminent means,Its not my fault that Mike has Amnesia.
David,
Quote Technically SF is right…..Jesus was not “created” he was “pro-created”. That is why the terms “firstborn”, only “begotten” are used.
The word “son” should've been a tip-off that Jesus is not God…who is the Father.
Jesus is also the Son of Man, that doesnt mean he was literaly procreated from God. I do believe he is begotten but doesnt mean he was procreated or asexually created. Notice how the whole bible tells you in detail how everything was created and what was created but Jesus was never part of that list. The OT talks about creation alot, how the ocean was created and the Mountains, even in Job talks about creation. Yet Jesus is never found in such list, or even how or when.Quote We know that Adam was “created” because YHWH Elohim formed him out of dust. We know that angels are called sons of God and that we are adopted sons of God. Jesus calls us brothers and not his sons
We are Adopted through Jesus, and he calls us brother because he came in the likeness of Man, to do what Adam could not do.Quote Therefore, Jesus being the only begotten son is unique. And the word “son” says it all….he is not God whom he comes from and has a beginning point in time whereas God has no beginning.
This goes back to Elohim being the Totality and Jesus being part of that. Jesus was never a “SON” until Man sinned.
Jesus existed as the “Word” that came to flesh because of mans Failure. So where does it say that Jesus was in the beginning as Jesus. It says he existed as the Word, as one who dwells in the Light. The Term son is used to unify the “echad” or the union, the oneness he has with God. It was never a term be used to seperate him from the Father. Wherever the Father is mentioned the Son is mentioned. You cant love one without the other. And in revelations he is not expressed as the Son but rather the Lamb, and the Father is not mentioned at all. Jesus is the beginning, the literal Alpha.Quote People who care to deceive you and wish to portray him as God want you to break the first commandment and have another god in front of God. If you believe in Jesus as God, you don't have the same God and son of God as depicted in the Bible and are in the same vein as the Koran's god…who has no son at all. Anytime Jesus is placed as “God” it is a “false god” and not the same as Jesus claimed to be. Believe Jesus and the Bible. Deceivers, like Satan, used God's personal words and quoted the Bible, too.
You have To Love Jesus. This is not breaking the first commandment at all, if you do not love the Son you cannot love the Father. Jesus gave a new commandent to Love eachother. With this said we know that The Father cannot be seperated from the Son, that we must love Both. You cannot choose to love only the father and not love the Son. You have to love both. There is nothing False about believing that Jesus is God, even I personally believe he is Part of Elohim, yet not Elohim.Quote Jesus' own words tells us who HE thinks he is…. Luk 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
If Jesus was God, why didn't the Jews know about him? The Jews are looking for a Savior FROM God.
What does the son of God mean?
Actually the jews asked him and Jesus asked why are you going to stone me, the Jews says becuase you said you are the God which is blasphemy. the Jews believed that stating you are the Son of God, means that you are God.Quote If Jesus wasn't “pro-created” then how did he come about into existence?
Jesus was never seperate from the Father, he was always with him. What else is there to conclude?Quote Col 1 talks about Jesus being before creation to whom he is firstborn over, as well as being preeminent in all things. People who want to make Jesus, God, want to throw out this verse and anything else that shows Jesus as a “son”.
This is only one verse to ever suggest that Jesus was actually born. which 1:15, but 1:18 proves that its meant to prove the Jesus is preeminent. How is this throwing out the verse when its proving my point.Quote The truth here is simple: either Jesus is created/pro-created or Jesus is God….and you have to choose which one you believe in. Jesus, son OF God. Or Jesus, God the Son.
If Jesus cannot be proven to being a created being prior to him being born in flesh, than the conclusion is simple, that he was not created, period.Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 18 2010,03:04) SF, Technically SF is right…..Jesus was not “created” he was “pro-created”.
That is why the terms “firstborn”, only “begotten” are used.
The word “son” should've been a tip-off that Jesus is not God…who is the Father.
We know that Adam was “created” because YHWH Elohim formed him out of dust. We know that angels are called sons of God and that we are adopted sons of God. Jesus calls us brothers and not his sons.
Therefore, Jesus being the only begotten son is unique. And the word “son” says it all….he is not God whom he comes from and has a beginning point in time whereas God has no beginning.
People who care to deceive you and wish to portray him as God want you to break the first commandment and have another god in front of God. If you believe in Jesus as God, you don't have the same God and son of God as depicted in the Bible and are in the same vein as the Koran's god…who has no son at all. Anytime Jesus is placed as “God” it is a “false god” and not the same as Jesus claimed to be. Believe Jesus and the Bible. Deceivers, like Satan, used God's personal words and quoted the Bible, too.
Jesus' own words tells us who HE thinks he is….
Luk 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
If Jesus was God, why didn't the Jews know about him? The Jews are looking for a Savior FROM God.
If Jesus wasn't “pro-created” then how did he come about into existence?
Col 1 talks about Jesus being before creation to whom he is firstborn over, as well as being preeminent in all things.
People who want to make Jesus, God, want to throw out this verse and anything else that shows Jesus as a “son”.
The truth here is simple: either Jesus is created/pro-created or Jesus is God….and you have to choose which one you believe in. Jesus, son OF God. Or Jesus, God the Son.
What does “BORN” mean? Does it not mean, brought forth? brought into existence?God does not “procreate”, we do.
God creates from nothing, we create from what God has created.This is what Jesus said.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
If Jesus is the beginning of God's “creation”, does that not make him being created? or else it would mean that everything else was procreated also.
Firstborn, only begotten, simply means, every thing else was created by the son.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 18 2010,12:18) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 18 2010,03:04) SF, Technically SF is right…..Jesus was not “created” he was “pro-created”.
That is why the terms “firstborn”, only “begotten” are used.
The word “son” should've been a tip-off that Jesus is not God…who is the Father.
We know that Adam was “created” because YHWH Elohim formed him out of dust. We know that angels are called sons of God and that we are adopted sons of God. Jesus calls us brothers and not his sons.
Therefore, Jesus being the only begotten son is unique. And the word “son” says it all….he is not God whom he comes from and has a beginning point in time whereas God has no beginning.
People who care to deceive you and wish to portray him as God want you to break the first commandment and have another god in front of God. If you believe in Jesus as God, you don't have the same God and son of God as depicted in the Bible and are in the same vein as the Koran's god…who has no son at all. Anytime Jesus is placed as “God” it is a “false god” and not the same as Jesus claimed to be. Believe Jesus and the Bible. Deceivers, like Satan, used God's personal words and quoted the Bible, too.
Jesus' own words tells us who HE thinks he is….
Luk 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
If Jesus was God, why didn't the Jews know about him? The Jews are looking for a Savior FROM God.
If Jesus wasn't “pro-created” then how did he come about into existence?
Col 1 talks about Jesus being before creation to whom he is firstborn over, as well as being preeminent in all things.
People who want to make Jesus, God, want to throw out this verse and anything else that shows Jesus as a “son”.
The truth here is simple: either Jesus is created/pro-created or Jesus is God….and you have to choose which one you believe in. Jesus, son OF God. Or Jesus, God the Son.
What does “BORN” mean? Does it not mean, brought forth? brought into existence?God does not “procreate”, we do.
God creates from nothing, we create from what God has created.This is what Jesus said.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
If Jesus is the beginning of God's “creation”, does that not make him being created? or else it would mean that everything else was procreated also.
Firstborn, only begotten, simply means, every thing else was created by the son.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Georg
George realize that there is that is only one phrase that is without a context.
and it might not even suggest that.
read this:Quote (a) that this is not a necessary signification of the phrase, since no one can show that this is the only proper meaning which could be given to the words, and therefore the phrase cannot be adduced to prove that he is himself a created being. If it were demonstrated from other sources that Christ was, in fact, a created being, and the first that God had made, it cannot be denied that this language would appropriately express that fact. But it cannot be made out from the mere use of the language here; and as the language is susceptible of other interpretations, it cannot be employed to prove that Christ is a created being. (b) Such an interpretation would be at variance with all those passages which speak of him as uncreated and eternal; which ascribe divine attributes to him; which speak of him as himself the Creator of all things. Compare John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:6,Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:10-12. The third signification, therefore, remains, that he is “the beginning of the creation of God,” in the sense that he is the head or prince of the creation; that is, that he presides over it so far as the purposes of redemption are to be accomplished, and so far as is necessary for those purposes. This is:
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 17 2010,19:57) A. Again What translation are you using, and if you would like lets go back to the hebrew of this passage.
im going to post KJV
Det4:15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
And even the context on 28-29 speak of gods who cant speak and that are man-made.
I would strictly say that in this passage that we should not worship any Graven Images, Images created by Man to worship a God.
Hi Dennison,Let me get this straight…….is it YOUR contention that God was saying it was okay to worship men and animals and stars and such, as long as we didn't worship “IMAGES” or “LIKENESSES” of those things?
And I don't know of any scripture that specifically says, “You CAN'T worship Jesus”. But I think that's clearly implied by the OT saying “Worship and serve ONLY Jehovah”, and that command is driven home in the NT where Jesus himself repeats it.
mike
Hi Dennison,
I am having a new word picture develop in my mind during the last 24 hours and I thought that you might be able to relate to it also. Picture a big tall palm tree which has an offshoot tree coming off of it. The offshoot represents that which is with God (the parent tree) and is God (another tree as an offshoot-the begotten God). The Spirit is within the total tree and produces the fruit and is in the fruit.So far this is the best pic that I have come up with, so if you can just picture this with only one offshoot, then that is what I have in mind:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluemed/328472075/lightbox/
You can see that there is one tree in one sense and in another sense there are two trees. The offshoot is not a branch but a stump with branches, leaves and fruit that comes from the parent tree. The offshoot contains all that was always in the parent tree, the same nature exactly, the same life but it is not the same parent tree. The parent tree would be the one true unbegotten God, the offshoot-the begotten God and that which produces the fruit and in the fruit-the Holy Spirit.
So, that shows the parent tree as having an existence prior to the offshoot but that which is within the offshoot existed as long as the main tree existed.
This shows that 'totality' of God that I think you are thinking of. If we were told to worship the one tree, the offshoot would be included in that 'one' tree. What do you think?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2010,02:31) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 17 2010,19:57) A. Again What translation are you using, and if you would like lets go back to the hebrew of this passage.
im going to post KJV
Det4:15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
And even the context on 28-29 speak of gods who cant speak and that are man-made.
I would strictly say that in this passage that we should not worship any Graven Images, Images created by Man to worship a God.
Hi Dennison,Let me get this straight…….is it YOUR contention that God was saying it was okay to worship men and animals and stars and such, as long as we didn't worship “IMAGES” or “LIKENESSES” of those things?
And I don't know of any scripture that specifically says, “You CAN'T worship Jesus”. But I think that's clearly implied by the OT saying “Worship and serve ONLY Jehovah”, and that command is driven home in the NT where Jesus himself repeats it.
mike
I didnt make any contention mike.
I Just think the point of the SPECFIC scripture you mentioned was in reference in man made images that Men worshipped.In ACTUALITY, everything that MAN worshiped they carved into stone. They make some sort of relic of it eventually, and pay homage to it evetually.
People worshiped volcanoes and had images of the demon God that supposed to lived there.They worshiped the Sun and made a beastly image of Ra or a human image of Apollo.
Usually human makes manmade images of what they worship.
The scripture you specfically mention talks about such things.
Psalms also talks about the stupid idols that cant do anything for them because they cant move, hear, or speak.Romans 1 talks about these same idols and how people worshiped beastly corruptable things.
My contentions it to talk about what the scripture is really referring to.
Jesus said DONT follow other people who claim to be Jesus!
This is almost connected to be in the same logic.Where does it say in the NT that Jesus said we must worship God only? i just want to see what scripture your referring to.
I would like to add this Picture so we can see what we are talking about. Ignore the trees that are like cut down.
This is the way i look at it.
We see a Tree.
The first things you can see are the simple features like the bark, the branches, the fruit, the color green.This is the parts we will be able to get to know.
The unknowable or the totality, is whats inside the tree, whats are the leafs made, the life inside the tree, how the enzymes are reacting, how far the roots are into the ground, how much water is it absorbing and what molecules make the wood of the tree and how do does atoms react to eachother and how many protons and electrons does each element have that make up the tree and whats makes up that and etc. and a never ending cycle of facts and questions.
There is so much to know, its impossible to know it all right away unless your All-Knowing.
So to know more about the Tree, you need to get closer to the perception or whats been revealed to you so far.
In reality what we identify as a Tree, is only a part of the Totality of what really makes up a Tree.
Now when it comes to us, we cant be like the Tree, we do not have those features.But we the ability to be like Christ who dwells in the totality of God.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2010,13:34) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,11:00) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2010,18:00) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52) Christ was not Created
Hi SF,Are you not saying Christ was “A Men”
Rev.3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the
earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Ed J,
you are compelelty misinterprting scripture.ARe YOU saying that Christ is simply a Man?
Hi SF,I cut out your ramblings, from your quote.
What does the combination of Eph.4:6 combined with Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35 say to you?
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came (consummated) together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.
Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto
him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. (Son of the HolySpirit = Son of God)
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing(Jesus) which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Jesus lineage explained
“Son of Man”: 25%; Mary's mother's lineage was of the tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5, 1:36)
“Son of Man”: 25%: Mary's father's lineage was (Judah) through Nathan(son of David). (Luke 3:23-31)
“Son of God”: 50%: Jesus' Father was the “HolySpirit”; NOT Joseph! (Mathew 1:18 / Mathew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)Birth: Jesus was 50% HolySpirit(God)(Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35), 25% Levite(Priest) and 25% Judah(King)!
Baptism by John the baptizer, Jesus was filled with the HolySpirit(God) beyond measure! (John 3:34 / John 1:14)Here is why Jesus is called both the “Son of Man” and the “Son of God”…
Mother Father
Mary HolySpirit
50% 50%
\ /
\ /
Jesus
/ \
/ \
/ \
Son of Man Son of God
(Mark 6:3) (Luke 1:35)Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Georg
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 19 2010,01:43) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 18 2010,12:18) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 18 2010,03:04) SF, Technically SF is right…..Jesus was not “created” he was “pro-created”.
That is why the terms “firstborn”, only “begotten” are used.
The word “son” should've been a tip-off that Jesus is not God…who is the Father.
We know that Adam was “created” because YHWH Elohim formed him out of dust. We know that angels are called sons of God and that we are adopted sons of God. Jesus calls us brothers and not his sons.
Therefore, Jesus being the only begotten son is unique. And the word “son” says it all….he is not God whom he comes from and has a beginning point in time whereas God has no beginning.
People who care to deceive you and wish to portray him as God want you to break the first commandment and have another god in front of God. If you believe in Jesus as God, you don't have the same God and son of God as depicted in the Bible and are in the same vein as the Koran's god…who has no son at all. Anytime Jesus is placed as “God” it is a “false god” and not the same as Jesus claimed to be. Believe Jesus and the Bible. Deceivers, like Satan, used God's personal words and quoted the Bible, too.
Jesus' own words tells us who HE thinks he is….
Luk 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
If Jesus was God, why didn't the Jews know about him? The Jews are looking for a Savior FROM God.
If Jesus wasn't “pro-created” then how did he come about into existence?
Col 1 talks about Jesus being before creation to whom he is firstborn over, as well as being preeminent in all things.
People who want to make Jesus, God, want to throw out this verse and anything else that shows Jesus as a “son”.
The truth here is simple: either Jesus is created/pro-created or Jesus is God….and you have to choose which one you believe in. Jesus, son OF God. Or Jesus, God the Son.
What does “BORN” mean? Does it not mean, brought forth? brought into existence?God does not “procreate”, we do.
God creates from nothing, we create from what God has created.This is what Jesus said.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
If Jesus is the beginning of God's “creation”, does that not make him being created? or else it would mean that everything else was procreated also.
Firstborn, only begotten, simply means, every thing else was created by the son.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Georg
George realize that there is that is only one phrase that is without a context.
and it might not even suggest that.
read this:Quote (a) that this is not a necessary signification of the phrase, since no one can show that this is the only proper meaning which could be given to the words, and therefore the phrase cannot be adduced to prove that he is himself a created being. If it were demonstrated from other sources that Christ was, in fact, a created being, and the first that God had made, it cannot be denied that this language would appropriately express that fact. But it cannot be made out from the mere use of the language here; and as the language is susceptible of other interpretations, it cannot be employed to prove that Christ is a created being. (b) Such an interpretation would be at variance with all those passages which speak of him as uncreated and eternal; which ascribe divine attributes to him; which speak of him as himself the Creator of all things. Compare John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:6,Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:10-12. The third signification, therefore, remains, that he is “the beginning of the creation of God,” in the sense that he is the head or prince of the creation; that is, that he presides over it so far as the purposes of redemption are to be accomplished, and so far as is necessary for those purposes. This is:
In other words, don't believe the Bible, believe the commentators.Georg
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 19 2010,02:20) I would like to add this Picture so we can see what we are talking about. Ignore the trees that are like cut down. This is the way i look at it.
We see a Tree.
The first things you can see are the simple features like the bark, the branches, the fruit, the color green.This is the parts we will be able to get to know.
The unknowable or the totality, is whats inside the tree, whats are the leafs made, the life inside the tree, how the enzymes are reacting, how far the roots are into the ground, how much water is it absorbing and what molecules make the wood of the tree and how do does atoms react to eachother and how many protons and electrons does each element have that make up the tree and whats makes up that and etc. and a never ending cycle of facts and questions.
There is so much to know, its impossible to know it all right away unless your All-Knowing.
So to know more about the Tree, you need to get closer to the perception or whats been revealed to you so far.
In reality what we identify as a Tree, is only a part of the Totality of what really makes up a Tree.
Now when it comes to us, we cant be like the Tree, we do not have those features.But we the ability to be like Christ who dwells in the totality of God.
Dennison,
Thanks for your picture. So are you saying by this picture that the Father is a 'part of' God, the Son is a 'part of' God, and the Holy Spirit is a 'part of' God?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 19 2010,18:11) I Just think the point of the SPECFIC scripture you mentioned was in reference in man made images that Men worshipped.
I disagree. I think the whole point is that we have never seen God in ANY form whatsoever, so don't worship ANYTHING that we have seen take a form of any kind. That includes “men”. Many people saw Jesus in the form of a man. But since you think it only refers to men making images out of inanimate objects, I guess it's a good thing that no one has ever carved, sculpted, painted, engraved or otherwise fashioned an image of the man Jesus into an inanimate object that was used to help incorporate the worship of him.
SF:
Quote Where does it say in the NT that Jesus said we must worship God only? i just want to see what scripture your referring to. Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'peace and love,
mikeQuote (Baker @ Sep. 20 2010,07:07) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2010,13:34) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,11:00) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2010,18:00) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52) Christ was not Created
Hi SF,Are you not saying Christ was “A Men”
Rev.3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the
earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Ed J,
you are compelelty misinterprting scripture.ARe YOU saying that Christ is simply a Man?
Hi SF,I cut out your ramblings, from your quote.
What does the combination of Eph.4:6 combined with Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35 say to you?
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came (consummated) together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.
Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto
him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. (Son of the HolySpirit = Son of God)
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing(Jesus) which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Jesus lineage explained
“Son of Man”: 25%; Mary's mother's lineage was of the tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5, 1:36)
“Son of Man”: 25%: Mary's father's lineage was (Judah) through Nathan(son of David). (Luke 3:23-31)
“Son of God”: 50%: Jesus' Father was the “HolySpirit”; NOT Joseph! (Mathew 1:18 / Mathew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)Birth: Jesus was 50% HolySpirit(God)(Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35), 25% Levite(Priest) and 25% Judah(King)!
Baptism by John the baptizer, Jesus was filled with the HolySpirit(God) beyond measure! (John 3:34 / John 1:14)Here is why Jesus is called both the “Son of Man” and the “Son of God”…
Mother Father
Mary HolySpirit
50% 50%
\ /
\ /
Jesus
/ \
/ \
/ \
Son of Man Son of God
(Mark 6:3) (Luke 1:35)Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16) Georg
Hi Georg,Thank you!
I'm glad to see your participation in the Prophecy section!
Your studies can add new insight to many here at h-net.May God bless you more and more!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Baker @ Sep. 20 2010,01:12) In other words, don't believe the Bible, believe the commentators. Georg
No in other words, dont take one phrase as your whole proof a doctrine that doesnt exist.in other words you picked one needle that came from the grass and say this is evidence that Christ was created, which is not true.
Georg your better than this, dont make doctrine based on ONE VERSE.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,01:23) Dennison,
Thanks for your picture. So are you saying by this picture that the Father is a 'part of' God, the Son is a 'part of' God, and the Holy Spirit is a 'part of' God?
Lu,
No, lets define the Terms correctly.
I dont believe that God was ALWAYS Father sense that depends if he has a creation to be a Father too.
Jesus was not ALWAYS “son” for he was the “Word” before that.
And the Holy Spirit, which isnt really part of this dicussion i guess, is simply what it is God spirit.The Picture to represents this.
In scripture we know that in Isaiah and in Revelations God says that he will be a God to his people.The Term Father was never mentioned UNTIL Jesus came, and in Revelations is not even used to identify God.
Lets take another shot at this, lets go back to the picture.
A) Jesus is what you see here in this picture, look at the picture and everything that you are able to see.
B) The Totality of God is everythign that you cant see and what is currently happening within the Tree. How far the Roots go, even to what are happen in an molecular level.Point being that Jesus came to reveal This Totality as the Father, because we are adopted THROUGH Jesus.
so that we may cry out “Abba” Father.Again, Jesus is what you see,
ITs impossible to SEE the Totality of God.Jesus is like that Rock that Moses hid behind to “SEE” God.
because to SEE God is to die, its TOO much.Does that make any sense?
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