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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,07:03) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 25 2010,08:48) The spin on scripture comes from yourself, and your conjecture that this verse implies that “Jesus the Ruler who will be BORN IN THE small bethlahem, whose beginnings/origins comes out from antiquity/Eternity/long time ago”
None of this suggest he had a beginning nor that he was created.
The Scripture is clear that he is not of this plain of existence, that he is not from this time, nor truely from bethelaham, but from another world.
Hi D,You are correct that Micah 5:2 makes it clear Jesus was from another time before he was born in Bethlehem. So why aren't you pointing this out to Gene in the “Pre-existent” thread?
But you are wrong to read the word “beginning” in this context and think it means “Jesus IS the beginning”. For that is NOT what is said at all. It says his BEGINNING is FROM days of antiquity. If his beginning is “from” any time at all, it is still clear that he HAD a beginning. And to try to rearrange it any other way is to try to rewrite the message of scripture.
mike
1.Mike was i debating anything in the pre-existent thread?
I dont remember…I think i had minor partcipation in that thread.Actually I didnt say that the word “beginning” in the context suggests that “Jesus is the beginning”
I said:Quote Actually Mike You say that God is the Alpha and the Omega, and he is also called the First and the Last in Isaiah the only God.
So he is called the BEGINNING, doesnt mean he HAS a beginning.
I think your misunderstanding what i meant. Im saying that If God is the first/alpha, and he is also caled the only God, yet doesnt have a beginning.Now we know in fact that Jesus is called the Beginning in Collosians 1:18
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
there is no beginning before the beginning Mike, Your saying its from a certain point in time. But there is “NO TIME” before the beginning.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,07:10) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 25 2010,08:52) 2.The only reason why dont like when you cut up my posts because you ignore other valid points i made.
It seems like you “dropped” “yalad” from your last rampage of posts?
?/ Sounds like a diversion to me, since you didnt answer my question. Actualy what scripture is saying is that “this Ruler will be born in bethlehem, and he is not from this world”
That's the reason I don't like the long posts. It takes much time and effort to compare what I posted to what you answered, and you have also neglected to answer some of my points.So, listen up Cheese-Doodle, do you or do you NOT think “mowtsa'ah” refers to the “place Jesus went out from” being from “days of antiquity”?
If not, then drop that diversion altogether. If so, then let's discuss how silly that would make the scripture.
mike
Ok pancakes,
So you dropped “Yalad”?
Actualy that makes sense, a place Jesus went out from the days of antiquity,
or he came out form the days of antiquity,
or instead of “back to the future”
“back from the past”?Its silly to think that Jesus was created before day 1.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,07:26) SF: Quote 4. Actually mike The very first claims you made that eternity was “peotitcs” for antiquity or a real long time ago.
than later when shimmer made her post, you changed your mind.
And what's wrong with that? Shimmer showed scholarly thought that fits in with the circumstances, and I happened to think it makes perfect sense. Why? Because of the LXX. First, these experts in Hebrew rendered “mowtsa'ah” as “beginning”, which fits nicely with the “origin” rendering almost every translation gives it. Second, these experts in Hebrew translated “days of antiquity” into “days of 'aion'”. So, if the Hebrew words didn't mean “eternity”, then why would they use a Greek word that did? Doesn't that at least make what Young said “feasible”? So I didn't base my new understanding JUST on what Shimmer posted, but a combination of things.SF:
Quote Because no matter how if it only means antiquity, or a really long time ago, it doesnt mean he was “caused to exist”
Look here Monkey-Puff, there is only ONE being in existence that wasn't “caused to exist”, and that is God Almighty. So, Jesus either IS God Almighty, or he was “caused to exist”. And since there is NO argument that Micah 5:2 IS about Jesus, and since it says his BEGINNING was from a certain time period, then it stands to reason that he was “caused to exist” during this particular time period.And to further add to your dilemma, two verses later, it is made VERY clear that this same Jesus is NOT God Almighty.
So……………there ya have it – as Kathi would say.
mike
I seemed that you only based things solely on shimmers posts.
Which again as i said, the word “aion” in some cases is mistranslated depending on the context.Soo Dragon-breath As you said, There is only one being that has always existed and that is God Almighty. Actualy it doesnt say the “time period” but “long long time ago, ancient times, antiquity, as far back as you can think of, or eternity”
Again, it is a fact that his “beginnings” starts in bethelehem, but its not certain that he was ever “born” or “created” anytime before that.“This guy has been around as far back as you can think”
In other words he has always existed.
In other words Micah 5:4- Ill add input into that in the thread you created specficaly for that right? or was it acts? or in the worship thread?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,07:47) SF: Quote 5. Actually Mike,
There is only one beginning that started everything else.
And that happen in Genesis 1:1
Are you sure? Because Job 38 says different:Job 38:4-7 NIV
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?This seems to imply that the angels were already present when God created the earth. Like I've told you before, there are many different “beginnings” mentioned in the Bible. And since we know the angels came into being through Jesus, his “beginning” must have been even earlier than theirs, which was earlier than the earth's.
SF:
Quote Your focused on only one word Mike to imply that he had a beginning.
Two words D: “WHOSE BEGINNING”. The word “whose” refers to Jesus and makes it clear that he HAD a beginning, not that he “IS the beginning”.SF:
Quote Actually im not struggling with the word, the verse is very clear that he will be “born” “cause to exist” in Bethelehem but in reference that he is not from this plain.
No, it says a ruler will come out of Bethlehem……..WHOSE BEGINNING WAS FROM DAYS OF OLD. So it indicates that he will be “caused to exist” in the future, but he was already “caused to exist” at a previous time also.SF:
Quote So your theory implies that Jesus was created from anytime between micah 5:2 and “before” the beginning of all things?
My UNDERSTANDING is that Jesus was caused to exist prior to his being caused to exist in Bethlehem. And his original BEGINNING had to have been at a time before God created anything else, for everything else was created through him.mike
Mike I have proven this to you before.
Im Very sure that the beginning started in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 because it SAYS SO.
The Earths foundations were created on day 3 FYI.
Therefore the angels could have been created any time between day 1 or day 2, because these are the 6 days of creation.
Any thing before day 1, will always be conjecture, and we know that anything before day 1 always involved God and his eternity and nothign else existed but him.
To say Angels were created before Day 1 is conjecture, and false.Matthew 2:6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
From this verse its implied that out of Bethlehem will the Son of God be born.
So your saying that Jesus was cuased to exist a long time ago, and than born again, and than died, to be ressurected into life again?
I find that silly.Is there any other verse that proves he was “caused to exist” before the beginning?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,07:51) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 25 2010,09:28) 6.
Mike, Scripture says he is the Beginning.
And Micah 5:2 never presents that Jesus had a “beginning” at a “certain” point in time.Even the Context of the Word “arche” represents the Fact that beginnings is not meant to present that Jesus was “caused to exist” but instead that he is “from” distant passed, or “came out of”
arche 1) beginning, origin
ek 1) out of, from, by, away from
The greek work “ek” is exactly what i been talking about.And the LXX wrote “arche” but not to suggest that Jesus was “caused to exist” or was “Created”
The Scriptures state that the Ruler who will be born in bethlehem, came out of distant past.
not born in distant past, nor created in distant past.
not born in antiquity, nor created in antiquity.
The word “arche” means “beginning”, and the word “ek” means “from”. Therefore, his “beginning” was “from”…….And try as you might to make it not so, the scripture says that Jesus had a “beginning”, and it was “from days long ago”.
mike
Its simple to understand the “ek” along with “origins” do not represent that he was created, but that he came out from.
Or where he orginially “was home”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,07:54) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 25 2010,09:34) 7.Its not I who gives credit to Jesus as the creator
but scritpures that state he created.
I mean i dont know what else you want me to say?
I want you to show me one scripture that says Jesus “CREATED” anything. And then show me how scripture lied when it says God created everything. And use the prayer in Acts 4 for your example, please. Because that one, while making it clear that God created, also makes it clear that Jesus is NOT that God who created, but one of the “things” in heaven that God created.mike
Mike,
John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hebrews 1:10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: [/color]
And of course Collosians.
There is nothing else left to say.
There is nothing in the OLd testament that presents the idea that Jesus created.
so it odd that the NT writers suddenly realized that Jesus was there the whole time.What else do you want me to say? you either believe what scripture says or you do not!
Acts 4 is besides the matter.
Its clear that even Isaiah the unoffical 5th gospel that talks so much about christ, and yet in the same breath only talks about how God is the ONLY GOD, and the ONLY CREATOR, yet in the NT Jesus is also mentioned to “particpated” within creation?Can you show me any verse in the OT that says that Jesus had any particiaption in creation?
how about show me a verse that says the world was created by God THROUGH the Word/Jesus/messiah/son of God in the OT?
*** To Add:
How about John 1:1 for example!!
how is it that John suddenly had the revelation that the WORD was in the beginning?
Or was John trying to copy Genesis 1:1?Mike,
some of the other posts you made, are answered in the one I already posted, so i dont see why i need to repeat my self.But as i said to Ja, but i cant find the post, i think it was deleted.
There is no beginnings before beginnings of all things, because its not in scripture.
So to say otherwise, is beyond scripture and purely conjecture.In other words there is nothing before Genesis execpt God.
Nothing in scripture ever give referecne to anything before Genesis,
and there is ALWAYS reference to the BEGINNINGS of all things.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2010,07:04) I made a post that replied to what JA said:
And now i cant find it,
Was it deleted?
I didn't delete it SF. I can't tell you what happened, but it's happened to me before. I've now gotten in the habit of hitting control/c before I preview or add reply, because sometimes they dissapear into thin air. At least that way, your post is saved to your computor's memory.Now that I think about it, I remember you LAUGHING when I lost a post to Is 1:18 that took me 5 hours to prepare!
What a D-Linquent!
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2010,07:17) Actually I didnt say that the word “beginning” in the context suggests that “Jesus is the beginning”
Whether you suggested it or not, the context of Micah 5:2 cleary means Jesus HAD a beginning.“……….whose beginning is from days of long ago.”
mike
SF:
Quote Ok pancakes,
So you dropped “Yalad”?
No, I just didn't want to give you another diversion. I stand by my understanding that since “yalad” literally means “brought forth”, then the KJV “goings forth” translation of “mowtsa'ah” fits right in with the “origin” translation of most Bibles.SF:
Quote Actualy that makes sense, a place Jesus went out from the days of antiquity,
No it doesn't, D. It would make the sentence say “the PLACE Jesus came from was from days of long ago”. Do you think God is revealing info about a “PLACE” here……..or about His coming Messiah?SF:
Quote Its silly to think that Jesus was created before day 1.
Does it make more sense to think he was created AFTER day 1 knowing that day 1 came into existence through him?mike
SF:
Quote Again, it is a fact that his “beginnings” starts in bethelehem, but its not certain that he was ever “born” or “created” anytime before that.
No, no, no, CrackerJack! Micah was written about the Messiah who IN THE FUTURE would come from Bethlehem. And God let us know that this FUTURE Bethlehemite actually had his original BEGINNING a long time ago.It would make no sense for Jesus' FUTURE birth in Bethlehem to be referred to as “happened a long time ago” when it would be years before it was yet to happen.
And although it doesn't say “born” or “created” in this particular verse, it does CLEARLY state that Jesus HAD A BEGINNING.
SF:
Quote In other words Micah 5:4- Ill add input into that in the thread you created specficaly for that right? or was it acts? or in the worship thread? Pick your poison.
I've called you out in “Worship”, and also made two new threads for you: “Micah 5:4” and “Titus 2:13”.Whenever you can get to them……..I'm in no hurry and I'm not rushing you.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2010,09:31) So your saying that Jesus was cuased to exist a long time ago, and than born again, and than died, to be ressurected into life again?
I find that silly.
Of course you find it silly, D…….it's scriptural. Jesus was the firstborn of all creation – before the angels who were before the earth. Then he was born again in the flesh. Then he died. Then he was born again from the dead……..which by the way, was what Paul meant in Col. “Jesus is the beginning, or first from the dead.” The “beginning” goes along with “from the dead”. In other words, Paul was saying that Jesus was the beginning of all those who would eventually rise from death to eternal life.Does it not mean anything to you that Jesus DIED? And it was only AFTER Jesus died that his God granted him immortality.
Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.Isn't this proof enough that Jesus wasn't originally immortal? Yet God is, right?
Do you see the “NO LONGER”? What kind of a “God” was Jesus if death – something he supposedly created – had mastery and dominion over him?Stick with me kid……you'll go places.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,07:18) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2010,07:04) I made a post that replied to what JA said:
And now i cant find it,
Was it deleted?
I didn't delete it SF. I can't tell you what happened, but it's happened to me before. I've now gotten in the habit of hitting control/c before I preview or add reply, because sometimes they dissapear into thin air. At least that way, your post is saved to your computor's memory.Now that I think about it, I remember you LAUGHING when I lost a post to Is 1:18 that took me 5 hours to prepare!
What a D-Linquent!
mike
LOL 5 hours,
I understand why i was laughing.
I love the nick name,
The shoe fits “abuelo”.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2010,09:39) Mike,
John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hebrews 1:10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: [/color]
And of course Collosians.
In John 1:3, the word “by” should be “through”, just like Paul said all things came FROM God, THROUGH Jesus.And the same goes for Colossians.
In fact, the “by” goes against the scriptures where God said he created ALONE. But the trinitarians want to prove Jesus is God, so they use the word “by” when they know it should be “through”.
But there are passages like the prayer in Acts that they can't “re-write”, so they just hope no one is paying attention……….OR, that they “blow it off” as if it's not scripture – kind of like you just did.
So you are only left with Hebrew 1:10, which MAY be about Jesus, or it may be Paul praising God in the middle of praising Jesus. And if it is about Jesus, then apparently doing the “handiwork” for his God was not considered enough of a part of the creation for his God to include him in the credits for creating. For Jehovah CLEARLY and without any guesswork say HE ALONE CREATED. And at least 3 passages in Acts confirm the same thing.
I can't explain the “through” D. I can't tell you why if everything came “through” Jesus, God doesn't give him credit as a “co-creator”. What I can tell you, is that we are told to trust in Jehovah with all our heart, and lean not on our own understanding.
I have not looked into the “who created” topic very well, but it is interesting to me. Maybe we can discuss it sometime, but it's off topic here, right?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,07:21) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2010,07:17) Actually I didnt say that the word “beginning” in the context suggests that “Jesus is the beginning”
Whether you suggested it or not, the context of Micah 5:2 cleary means Jesus HAD a beginning.“……….whose beginning is from days of long ago.”
mike
What are you talking about?
lol What context are you referrring to?
I thinkk you got this response all twisted up and confused.Actually how the interpretation goes, that its clear this is the redeemer that God will send.
According to Matthew 2: they know that the Christ will be born in bethelehem according to this verse.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 26 2010,09:44) But as i said to Ja, but i cant find the post, i think it was deleted.
Did you see the post when you first added the reply?And as far as “beginnings”, we can discuss that topic too, if you'd like.
Take Gen 1: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”.
Does that say the earth was there “in the beginning”? Of course it does, for to be “created”, it must have existed. It doesn't say, “In the beginning, God STARTED TO create the heavens and the earth”, does it? So if the earth was creatED – as in past tense – “in the beginning”, then the earth EXISTED during the “time period” of “in the beginning”.
All I'm saying is for you not to get all “quasi-meta-physical” about these three words, as if they prove something about Jesus being God Himself. They don't.
peace and love,
mikeHi D,
Again, this is from something Shimmer posted.
http://www.aionios.com/appendix_b.html
peace and love,
mikeIm going to respond soon mike,
Im in debt with bod and now you.Actually to be honest I havent felt up to it lately.
Pray for me
Much love,
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 01 2010,16:52) Im going to respond soon mike,
Im in debt with bod and now you.Actually to be honest I havent felt up to it lately.
Pray for me
Much love,
I will.My wonderful heavenly Father, Jehovah, I pray that you lift your son in Christ, Dennison up. We all know that there was no promise made that things would be wonderful during our existence on earth. We understand the promise was that when things DO get rough and tough on us, that you are still there with us…….to help pull us through those things.
My brother Dennison is hurting now, and I ask that you take him into consideration. Send him a message through your Spirit that all will be wonderful eventually, but that for now, things have to run their course.
Remind him that there WILL be a time when there are no more tears. Remind him to hold fast to you and your Son, because with you, all things are possible. And if you're on our side, then no one else will stand a chance.
Remind him that it is the Evil One who has challenged you and who has caused the pain and suffering in this world. Remind him of Your own words concerning this Evil One: “Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.”
Bring to his mind you loyal servant Job. Make him remember that those things that seem “important” and the pain that envelopes us today will soon be of no effect.
All who stand with you, Jehovah, will stand strong in your strength. Nothing else matters.
I pray through the name of your holy servant, our savior Jesus Christ. Amen.
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